Talk:Fox, Red (3.5e Creature)

SRD Tag?

Is there a reason why this isn't named "SRD:Fox"? --Sabre070 07:11, 2 December 2008 (MST)

Because the Fox is not part of the MM. This is homebrew material, and as such I have removed the OGC templates. --Green Dragon 07:25, 2 December 2008 (MST)

Fox Research

I have been doing a bit of research into foxes, and several things have come up, one is that foxes are extremely intelligent, morso than dogs or even cats.

Foxes also have very good eyesight, this seems to have popped up due to the need for them to be able to find prey that almost completely maches its habbitat (namely rabbits, both in forrests and in the arctic).

Point being; i was wondering if any of this should be taken into account on this page? there are several homebrew races based around the fox that all have the 'trueseeing' ability, and most often a plus to intelligence as well. Just a thought. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.47.248.188 (talk • contribs) 19:42, 18 April 2009 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

If you would like feel free to improve this page. --Green Dragon 01:58, 19 April 2009 (MDT)

Thank you greatly, I'll have ed do it, he's a friend of mine. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.47.248.188 (talk • contribs) 08:50, 19 April 2009 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

Oh, sweet. Thanks. --Green Dragon 11:55, 22 April 2009 (MDT)

True Seeing... Wait What?

Since when fox got magical eyesight able to divine strong illusion spells? A 1st level druid could take a fox as an animal companion and thwart every illusion. It insane, this ability should be removed. --Lord Dhazriel 11:59, 22 April 2009 (MDT)

Thanks for pointing that out, after talking to my friend, he said that he understood how that could be a bit overpowered *a bit- heh*. I'll take it out, thanks! --Ed 20:09, 22 April 2009 (MDT)

Problems

Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal). Also the stats are pretty high, it intelligence cannot be 6. Since when a fox is stronger than a human... and a orc or a half-orc. --Lord Dhazriel 19:37, 26 April 2009 (MDT)

Make it 2. To make it 'smarter' than a dog, give it a higher wisdom. With it's keen eyes, it can better react to the world around it and be 'smarter' but buffing another mental stat. ...yes, I know this make's "Fox's Cunning" ironic, but cunning is oft associated with wisdom (you know how to deceive through careful reactions) or charisma. -- Eiji 19:47, 26 April 2009 (MDT)

All very true, I am merely acting upon my friend's requests, I have talked with him (or tried to) and he apperently wanted to use this as a lycanthrope... He has a problem with wanting to be too uber *sigh*... Ah well, I shall change these scores back to what seems fair, if you have anything you can change to make this animal more balanced, please do so, I kind of regret even changing it in the first place. ~ Ed 21:05, 28 April 2009 (MDT)

Seems to need adjustment

Sorry if I come across as rude or harsh, but I do prefer things to make sense (at least when magic isn't involved). First off, "smarter" animals have higher wisdom scores, and foxes are renowned for their cunning, so why is their Wisdom so much lower than a wolf, dog, or cat? Additionally, canids attack with their teeth and not their blunt claws, so I think it is a tiny bit inappropriate to give them claw attacks, especially such strong ones. Finally, the listed speed here is simply rediculous. No Tiny land creature moves that fast; even cats only have a movement speed of 30, and the movement speed listed here is twice that. Sorry again if this seems harsh. I mostly want to hear your reasoning. -- CloakedFigure 16:17, 16 June 2009 (MDT)

Size

Looking at the entry for the Red Fox, it's a bit difficult to see why a fox would be Tiny. The foxes' length (1.5 ft to 3ft) and weight (6.5 lb to 24 lb) match up fairly well with the lower end of the Small size category (2 ft and 8 lb, respectively). --Siosilvar 12:48, 3 August 2009 (MDT)

True, but it also sais a fox of 1 to 3 HD is Small, so the stats given... how do you say that... lack internal consistency. Perhaps we should change some things? Deranged 08:51, 13 August 2009 (MDT)

Changes/Fixs/Corrections

There's still (quite) a few issues with this entry;

1. Size: It says tiny, but under advancement it says 1-3 HD (small).

2. Attack: Doesn't add in the +1 damage from Strength, nor does it include the Base Attack Bonus for the attack roll.

3. Full Attack: The attack bonuses are all wrong. The bite should be the primary attack, and the claws should have a -5 penalty for being a secondary attack, (if it should even have claw attacks, which neither the dog nor the wolf get).

4. Space/Reach: D&D uses 5' squares, so this needs to read 5'/5', not 4'/2'

5. Special Attacks: Attach should be listed in the description so we don't have to hunt down the Weasel entry to find out what this does.

6. Saves: Base saves should be Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +0. With ability modifiers, that would read +3/+6/-1

7. Skills: None of the skills include ability modifiers or size modifiers, nor the +2 bonus to balance and escape artist from the Agile feat.

8. Feats: With 2 hd it should only have 1 feat. Any bonus feats should be noted as such.

9. Organization: 20-300? Really? I checked on Wikipedia, and I didn't see anything to suggest that 300 foxes would live in the same pack. I don't think the ecosystem could support that many living together.

10. Challenge Rating: I'd peg this at about 1/3, (the same as a dog), maybe 1/2 at best.

11. Advancement: D&D doesn't do negative advancement. The entry should start at the base creature with the lowest HD. I believe the 1/8 to 1 is meant to represent the pups, and I see no reason to include the stats for young when nothing else in D&D does. I also don't think that foxes ever get as large as a typical human, nor do I think a fox should ever be as 'tough' as a tiger, (6 HD). Many animals don't even have an advancement.

12. Skill Bonuses: This seems... silly. Do they really need all these bonuses to all these skills? I mean, if they do, then I'm playing nothing but werefox and anthropomorphic fox rogues from now on.

13. Familiar/Animal Companion Bonuses: This is completely out of line with what bonus a familiar grants to a spellcaster, and animal companions to not grant any bonus to a druid/ranger.

I've been keeping my eye open for something to work on so I can get a little more experience in wiki editing, so if nobody has any particular objections I'd be more than willing to make some adjustments to this one.  Airos  Talk  Contribs  Email  00:53, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

If you see gross errors (such as incorrect addition and whatnot), go ahead and change them. For more subjective things, the history tab is your friend. This one hasn't been edited seriously in months, and the user who created it made exactly one main space edit, over a year ago. Get in there and have fun! JazzMan 01:25, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Yays! Okay, I think I got most, if not all, of the math errors and otherwise raw, (and R.A.W.), errors. Now, the more 'subjective' matters;

1. Speed: 60 is too fast. Dogs have 40, Wolves have 50. I'm thinking 40. Also, burrow? Sure, they can dig holes in the ground, but I don't think they can burrow in the D&D sense of the word.

2. Attack/Full Attack: I removed the claw attack, since neither dogs nor wolves get one. Canines aren't known for their vicious claws.

3. Special Attacks: Attach. This just doesn't 'feel' right for foxes. I don't know enough about them to say one way or the other, and I know pit bulls can lock their jaws. Opinions?

4. Skills and Skill Bonuses: This section is just silly. The Wikipedia article says that only two species of fox can climb trees, Neither of which is the red fox. Balance seems a little out of place, as does escape artist. The bonuses to all the skills need to be scaled back to reasonable levels.

4a. I can remove the huge bonuses to spot and listen, and give it Alertness as a bonus feat instead.

4b. Climb and Balance should be right out. Jump seems a little silly. I think all three of those could be removed without an issue. I may leave Jump and Balance as class skills, but without the huge racial bonuses.

4c. Hide and Move Silently are fine as class skills, but the numbers need to be brought down. Already with a +3 from dex to both and a +4 to hide from size, I don't think there should be much more than a +2 bonus, +4 at the most.

4d. Escape Artist. I'm really not sure if this should stay or go. I'm thinking to maybe just leave it as a class skill with 0 ranks and no or a +2 racial bonus.

5. Feats: If I remove Escape Artist as a skill, then I will remove Agile as a feat. I may just replace Agile with Alertness even if I keep escape artist.

6. Advancement: I'm thinking of just removing this completely. Dogs and Wolves don't have advancement, I don't see why foxes should.

I'll return to this tomorrow and see if any comments have popped up, and make changes accordingly. Cheers!  Airos  Talk  Contribs  Email  02:53, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Everything makes sense to me. You might be right about the attach special attack. I don't know much about foxes, but they don't seem like the viscous type. Maybe get rid of Attach and give it Scent instead. JazzMan 15:46, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Also, you seem to be pretty wiki savvy, so I won't step on your toes, but around here I find it easier to change first and ask questions later (as long as you think the changes are reasonable, of course). It's so easy to revert on a wiki you might as well make the changes while you are thinking about them, and ask if they are ok later, since it could be months before anyone even responds. JazzMan 15:48, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Okay, fair enough. I'm not completely familiar with this community yet, so I don't know what the 'rules' are as far as editing stuff, and if I should just jump right in on abandoned pages. I'm also much more used to community input, since almost all my works up to this point have been on the WotC boards, so I'm not entirely used to just making the changes without knowing what people expect to see, (every community has its own opinion on 'balance'). There's a lot of things around here that I'd like to 'adopt' or otherwise just clean up, so once I'm satisfied with this I think I'll just jump in and have a little fun, as you suggested. ☺  Airos  Talk  Contribs  Email  16:35, 5 April 2010 (UTC)