Talk:Fire Bender (5e Class)

To All the Editors

I'm about to make some major changes to this class. I'm restoring some of the features and abilities that I had originally written, but I am keeping many of the changes that you all have made. If, after you read through all of the changes, you don't agree with my view of the class, I am open to discussing possible changes. I'll be very open to purely balance-based changes, but there are a few elements that I will stand my ground on in relation to certain features. If we still can't reach an understanding, please make a class variant instead of editing this class.

Although I do appreciate the attention this class has gotten and the balance adjustments that have been given to it, I would have appreciated a message sent my way letting me know you wanted to make these changes. Just a note for future desires to edit. Again, I am very appreciative of the improvements you all have given this class.

WiserVisor (talk) 20:46, 14 February 2019 (MST)

Copycat Spellcasting

What does "Copycat Spellcasting" mean? Why is the use of two modifiers to create a spellcasting modifier unbalanced or wrong in the way that I've done it? WiserVisor (talk) 13:03, 16 September 2021

Forces usage of two ability score modifiers to essentially do what spellcasting has already provided a way to do that's less complicated. --Lavie (talk) 14:12, 16 September 2021 (MDT)

My argument for using the Dexterity/Charisma combined modifier is flavor. Within the source material, there is a strong emphasis on the bender's mental state or ideology, which accounts for each of the classes association with Intelligence, Charisma, etc. However, they also need to follow through with particular motions and forms to actually manipulate the element. Thus, they must have a solid level of Dexterity to accomplish these feats of bending. Am I understanding correctly that, despite that association with the original source of this class, you believe it is better to remove the involvement of Dexterity in the Fire Bender's technique modifiers?

On a related note, is there a reason why Copycat Spellcasting makes something unbalanced? It may make things slightly more complicated, but unless it significantly weakens or strengthens the class beyond a reasonable extent, I don't see why it would make the class unbalanced. Due to the Powerful Defense and Elemental Arts features of the class, the players will most likely already be investing in Dexterity. If this class only used Charisma as the technique modifier, the character would be of nearly equivalent power in terms of both offensive and defensive capabilities, but lacking some accuracy to the source material. The only possible difference in power would be if the Charisma and Dexterity modifiers were off by a significant margin, which, due to the design of the class, would be generally unlikely. Not impossible, admittedly, but unlikely. Also, the increase in complexity is rather minor. When initially creating their character and whenever they increase their Dexterity or Charisma modifier, they will have to do a simple calculation. Once that calculation is completed, the character will play just like any other spellcaster in terms of the use of their technique modifier. WiserVisor (talk) 14:25, 16 September 2021

Lack of 11th and 17th Level Features

My reasoning for not giving this class features at 11th and 17th level is based upon the fact that these classes are structured similarly to the official Monk class. At these levels, the Monk class only gains subclass features. This class doesn't have subclasses, but instead gains a selection of Basic and Advanced Techniques (spells), which they are allowed to have more of as their level increases. They also gain access to more powerful techniques as the level up. Looking at these particular levels, it can also be seen that the Fire Bender class still gains more than just hit points upon reaching these levels. At 11th level, the Fire Bender gains an extra chi point, is allowed to have two Basic Techniques (cantrips) instead of only one, and the maximum Advanced Technique level is increased to 6, allowing for the Fire Bender to use more powerful techniques. 17th level grants even more: the proficiency bonus increases to +6, an extra chi point is gained, Inner Flame increases to 1d12, and the maximum Advanced Technique level increases to 9. If this class gained more features at these levels, I believe they would be distinctly more powerful than the official Monk class, since Monks do not gain access to a spell list like Fire Benders do, but Monks have a subclass, whereas Fire Benders don't. It maintains balance. There are also official D&D classes that have levels where no class features are gained. Every single class that has any degree of spellcasting (ignoring subclasses) has levels where they don't gain any class features. Bards, Wizards, Clerics, Druids, Warlocks, Sorcerers, even Rangers and Paladins all have levels where they gain no class features. Seeing this, it seems to me that having two levels without class features will not ruin a class, especially considering that this class has spellcasting capacity. WiserVisor (talk) 16:05, 17 September 2021 (PST)

Access to spells of 3rd level or higher is the class feature for those classes. Also, every official class has subclasses. I see no reason for this one to not have subclasses. --Lavie (talk) 20:51, 17 September 2021 (MDT)

I completely agree. Whenever those classes gain a level that doesn't have a distinct class feature, they always gain access to a higher level of spells. The same can be said for the Fire Bender class. At 11th level, they gain access to 6th level techniques along with being able to have an extra Basic Technique, and at 17th level, they gain access to 9th level techniques. That is why I am saying that the Fire Bender class' lack of class features at 11th and 17th level is not a critical weakness. It reflects the same pattern of official classes when it comes to not having class features on a level-up. In relation to your point on how every official class has a subclass, I'd like to discuss this in a separate thread on this discussion page, since there is a lot to be discussed in that matter. WiserVisor (talk) 14:37, 18 September 2021 (PST)

Lack of Subclasses

I will concede the fact that all of the official classes have subclasses, whereas this class does not. My argument for not having subclasses for this class is not based upon this fact, but is instead based upon the idea of balance. If subclasses were added to this class as it currently stands, the Fire Bender class would become distinctly more powerful than the official D&D classes. I will demonstrate this by comparing the Fire Bender class to the official class that it was primarily based on, the Monk class.

Let's assume that the Fire Bender class is exactly as it is, but it also has subclass features, which it gains at 3rd, 6th, 11th, and 17th level, just like the Monk class. At 1st and 2nd level, the Fire Bender and Monk classes are reasonably similar in power. At 1st level, the Monk has Unarmored Defense and Martial Arts. Fire Bender has Powerful Defense and Elemental Arts, both being based directly on the previously mentioned Monk features. At 2nd level, the Monk gains Ki and Unarmored Movement. Fire Bender gains Chi and Inner Flame. At this point, Fire Bender starts to be more offensive-combat oriented due to its initial Chi features, and Monk starts to be more well-rounded, with some combat and some movement improvements. Still, they are generally comparable in overall usefulness as classes. At 3rd level, however, there is a notably shift in this balance. The Monk gains their first subclass feature, as well as Deflect Missiles. The Fire Bender, on the other hand, gains their first subclass feature, Fire Block, and also two 1st or 2nd level spells, as well as a cantrip from the Fire Technique list. As you can see, these techniques have no direct analog to the Monk class. They are simply an extra feature that the Fire Bender gains and the Monk does not. As both the Monk and the Fire Bender gain more levels, this gap would only widen. For example, at 5th level, the Monk gains Extra Attack and Stunning Strike, and the Fire Bender gains Extra Attack, Intense Release, is allowed access to 3rd level spells, and can now have up to three spells prepared. As the number of spells prepared and the level of said spells continues to increase, the gap between the Monk and Fire Bender class widens further and further. If we were to specifically compare the Fire Bender class to a Way of the Four Elements Monk, the difference in power becomes even more apparent. The WFE subclass grants spells or spell-like actions at 3rd, 6th, 11th, and 17th level. At 3rd level, you gain Elemental Attunement, which is basically a combined version of Gust, Mold Earth, Shape Water, and Control Flames, if all of them were slightly weaker, as well as one more Elemental Discipline of the player's choice that is within their limitations. The Fire Bender class, even without subclasses, is already stronger than this version of Monk. The Fire Bender, at 3rd level, gains a cantrip of their choosing, as well as two spells of 1st or second level of their choosing, all from the Fire Technique list. In addition, the Fire Bender only spends a number of chi points equal to the spell's level, whereas the WFE Monk, if they have an Elemental Discipline that allows them to cast a spell, must spend a number of ki points equal to the spell's level plus 1. The Fire Bender's Technique feature has a better deal compared to what the WFE subclass gives you, both in terms of ki/chi consumption and discipline/technique count. If the Fire Bender had subclass features on top of their Basic/Advanced technique features, there would be no argument in saying that the Fire Bender is dramatically stronger than the WFE Monk. This issue of power balancing is the reason I believe the Fire Bender class, as it is currently written, should not have subclasses.

With all of this being said, I will also concede the fact that I can see this class being redesigned to include subclasses. Currently, I see three ways for this to be accomplished:

1. Remove the Basic/Advanced Technique mechanic from the class entirely, and add subclasses in its stead. This way, the Fire Bender class would more closely resemble the Monk class, following the official pattern of having a subclass and being comparable in terms of power (assuming the subclasses are balanced, of course).

2. Create a subclass system based around the Basic/Advanced Technique mechanic. I have actually been seriously considering doing this in the past, but I never got around to fleshing it out to the point of posting it here. The idea would be that, at 3rd level, the Fire Bender would choose a subelement. The options would probably be Lightning and Combustion, which were suggested as subclasses earlier. Rather than gaining a feature at 3rd, 6th, 11th, and 17th level, the Fire Bender instead gains an additional Basic/Advanced Technique list upon choosing their subelement at 3rd level, this time with spells relating to their chosen subelement. They may pick from this table and the Fire Technique list for their Basic and Advanced techniques. This would maintain the Technique mechanic, while also incorporating the idea of subclasses to allow for more individuality. This would require a few core features to be tweaked, such as Lightning Bending and the Combustion part of Final Firebending, due to their association with these subelements, but it wouldn't be anything too difficult to accomplish. Now, I would not be surprised if you pointed out the fact that the Earth Bender class currently uses this method, but also has individual subclass features as well. You would be correct. I would also respond by saying that the Earth Bender class, as it stands now, is notably stronger than all of the other Bender classes, with those extra subclass features being only one of the reasons. If I removed the subclass features and turned them into Techniques found in their respective Technique lists (which I intend to do soon, since this discussion has inspired me to focus more attention on these classes), and also reduced the number of Basic Techniques the class has access to, I would feel much more comfortable with the balance of that class, as it would have a more comparable level of power with the official Monk class.

3. Completely redesign the class from scratch, this time having subclasses in mind from the very beginning. This would be the most exhaustive process, but it would allow for any mixture of class features that the creator can think of, assuming they keep balance in consideration, while also allowing for subclasses to be included without overloading the class with features and abilities. The class wouldn't even need to be based upon the Monk class with this method. The creator could lean more into having the Fire Bender use spells, and base the class off of one of the official full-caster classes.

If, even after my explanation of why I did not include subclasses due to balance issues, you still strongly desire to have full-blown subclasses in this class, I would respectfully ask you to create a class variant. There is nothing wrong with making this class work with subclasses, but that is not the design philosophy behind this version of the class. This class' form of customization is based around the player choosing their own Basic/Advanced techniques to help them differentiate their character from other Fire Bender characters. I still 100% intend on implementing the second subclass option that I mentioned in the previous section, where the player may choose a subelement and gain an additional Technique list to choose from based on their decision. If that is satisfactory for you, then we are now on the same page! Thank you for reading through this whole thing. I wanted to fully explain the reasoning behind the design choices I made for this class, and it's hard to do that with few words. WiserVisor (talk) 14:40, 18 September 2021 (PST)

If this class essentially gains spells, then it shouldn't gain class features at the same time as it gains access to 3rd+ level spells. If it's meant to mimic fullcaster progression, then every other level starting at 5th level and ending at 17th level should be empty, unless the feature is in similar power to official content gained at those levels (non combat features, essentially). So yeah, this class as is already is unbalanced and overpowered.--Lavie (talk) 16:01, 18 September 2021 (MDT)

That is a fair point. I'll probably scale back the rate at which this class increases technique levels to make it follow a half-caster progression, like Rangers and Paladins, where they only ever get so high as 5th level. Or maybe even make it match it with magic subclasses, like Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster, where it only gets to be as high as 4th level. That might make more sense, since this class also grants cantrips, not just leveled spells. Either of those should make it so that those feature-less level-ups line up better with the increasing of technique levels. The class features may still need a bit of reordering to make it work fully, but that half-caster/subclass-caster progression will make it a lot easier. What are your thoughts on those two options, half-caster or subclass-caster? WiserVisor (talk) 15:55, 18 September 2021 (PST)

Halfcaster, no class features at 9th, 13th, or 17th level period. Also, do give it subclasses. This whole it's not balanced with subclasses in mind is pointless. Remove features to balance it. --Lavie (talk) 17:03, 18 September 2021 (MDT)

If I may ask, why are you so strongly set upon this class having subclasses? I am intending to effectively add subclasses via additional technique lists, which allows for character customizability and reflection of source material, but it sounds like that is not satisfactory to you. If it actually is, and I'm misinterpreting what you wrote, let me know. If you are wanting this class to have subclasses since the official D&D classes have subclasses, there are several classes on this wiki that also lack subclasses, like the Arcane Ranger or Aura Magister classes. They are few and far between, of course, but they do exist. Do you believe every class should have subclasses, or are there exceptions? If you you believe there are no exceptions, is the only reasoning for wanting subclasses the fact that the official classes have them, or is it for the sake of customizability of characters? Or is it for something else entirely? Again, if you firmly believe that this class should have full subclasses, a class variant is a perfectly viable way of going about that. I believe that's what the Fire Bender, Variant class was aiming to achieve. WiserVisor (talk) 16:40, 18 September 2021 (PST)

Don't justify your homebrew with the fact that other homebrew does the same. Classes should have subclasses for variety that can't come from just a variety of techniques. Lightning Bending and Combustion Bending are two things you could have for subclasses easily. Also, just adding subclasses isn't a viable reason to make a variant. The techniques aren't enough, especially since you're not putting them in and having them just be spells instead of at least a mixture of spells and techniques like way of the four elements. --Lavie (talk) 18:15, 18 September 2021 (MDT)

I made subclassing for firebenders you may change anything you want and I didn’t edit it into the actual thing yet as the creator has not confirmed it is a good idea

Here's a lightning-focused subclass for firebenders:

Pyrokinetic Stormcaller

The Pyrokinetic Stormcaller is a subclass for firebenders who have mastered the lightning element, channeling the raw power of electricity through their flames.

Arcing Flames: Starting at 3rd level, you gain the ability to infuse your fire attacks with lightning energy. Whenever you deal fire damage with your bending, you can choose to expend a bonus action and additional chi points to enhance the attack with lightning. On a hit, the target takes the fire damage as normal, and any creatures within 10 feet of the target must make a Dexterity saving throw against your Bending Save DC. On a failure, they take half the fire damage that was dealt to the original target as lightning damage. You can expend up to 3 chi points to increase the radius to 20 feet for each additional chi point.

Luminous Burst: At 6th level, your control over lightning allows you to unleash a powerful burst of electricity. As an action, you spend 5 chi points to create a 10-foot radius sphere of crackling lightning centered on yourself. Each creature within the area must make a Dexterity saving throw against your Bending Save DC, taking 2d6 lightning damage on a failed save, or half as much on a successful one. This action does not consume an attack; it is purely a burst of lightning energy to unleash in close quarters.

Chain Lightning Strike: Starting at 11th level, you learn the ability to project a chain of lightning between enemies. When you successfully hit an enemy with a fire attack, you can use your reaction to expend a chi point and cause a bolt of lightning to jump from your target to another creature within 30 feet of the original target. The additional target must make a Dexterity saving throw against your Bending Save DC or take lightning damage equal to half the fire damage dealt to the original target.

At 17th level choose one:

Thundering Presence: At 17th level, your mastery over lightning becomes truly awe-inspiring. As an action, you spend 10 chi points to envelop yourself in a pulsating aura of lightning. Until the end of your next turn, any creature that starts its turn within 10 feet of you or enters that area for the first time on a turn takes lightning damage equal to your proficiency bonus. Additionally, your Arcing Flames feature now affects all creatures within 30 feet of the target.

Or

Lightning bending: You have mastered the art of separating energy to create lightning. Starting at 18th level, as an action, make a Charisma saving throw as you attempt to calm yourself for this attack (If you've taken damage since the beginning of the round, you roll with disadvantage). If you roll less than a 10, you take 6d8 points of Fire damage as your attempt to Lightning Bend blows up in your face, literally. If your roll is greater than or equal to 10 and less than 21, you consume 8 chi points and use the technique blasting bolt, dealing only lightning damage. If your roll is 21 or higher, you consume only 5 chi points. If you reduce a creature to less than one third of their total hit points with this technique, they must make a Constitution saving throw against your Bending Save DC, falling unconscious for one minute if they fail.

This lightning-focused firebending subclass allows you to control and shape electricity, unleashing devastating lightning attacks while still harnessing the power of fire.

Certainly! Here's a subclass for firebenders that focuses on combustion:

Pyrokinetic Combustionist

The Pyrokinetic Combustionist is a subclass for firebenders who have mastered the dangerous art of combustion, harnessing explosive fire to devastating effect.

Combustive Blast: Starting at 3rd level, you gain the ability to channel your firebending into explosive bursts. As an action, you can spend 5 chi points to create a focused explosion at a target within 60 feet of you. The target must make a Dexterity saving throw against your Bending Save DC, taking 4d8 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much on a successful one. Additionally, the explosion ignites flammable objects within 10 feet of the target.

Searing Detonation: At 6th level, when you use your Combustive Blast feature, you can now choose to increase its power. By spending an additional 3 chi points, the blast becomes an area explosion, affecting all creatures within a 10-foot radius of the target. The affected creatures must make a Dexterity saving throw against your Bending Save DC, taking the same fire damage as the original target on a failed save, or half as much on a successful one.

Unstable Ignition: Starting at 11th level, your control over combustion becomes more potent. When you use your Combustive Blast feature, you can choose to enter an Unstable Ignition state. By spending an additional 5 chi points, your blast's damage increases by 2d8 and spreads to all creatures within a 20-foot radius of the target. The affected creatures must make the same Dexterity saving throw against your Bending Save DC, taking the increased fire damage on a failed save, or half as much on a successful one.

At 17th level choose one:

Explosive Mastery: At 17th level, your explosive capabilities reach their peak. When you enter the Unstable Ignition state, you can choose to release the full extent of your power. By spending an additional 10 chi points, your blast's damage increases by 4d8 and engulfs all creatures within a 30-foot radius of the target in the explosive flames. The affected creatures must make the same Dexterity saving throw against your Bending Save DC, taking the increased fire damage on a failed save, or half as much on a successful one. Additionally, the area affected by the explosion becomes ablaze, remaining difficult terrain and causing ongoing fire damage to creatures within it until they take an action to extinguish the flames.

Or

Combustion: There’s fire, then there’s lightning. But there is one firebending technique that rises above the rest when it comes to raw power: combustion. Many fire benders can create explosions, but it often takes a lot out of them. But not you. You can now use the technique fireball without consuming any chi points. The fireball technique no longer counts towards the maximum number of Advanced Techniques you know.

The Pyrokinetic Combustionist subclass allows firebenders to focus on harnessing explosive power, creating devastating blasts of fire that can affect multiple targets. It provides an equal level of power to the lightning subclass, emphasizing destructive fire-based abilities without the inclusion of lightning bending.

NOTE: remove lightning bending, fire block, extra attack, with intense release, combustion and any others you see for as well as techniques related to lightning and combustion from the normal fire bending list. ADD blazing inferno and unyielding inferno MOVE all technique related features up one level (this includes when you unlock it the amount and the level of technique)

Blazing Inferno: Starting at 18th level, you have mastered the art of unleashing a Blazing Inferno upon your foes. As an action, you focus your firebending energy, channeling it into an intense wave of flames. Make a Charisma saving throw to control the surge of fire. The DC for this saving throw is equal to your Bending Save DC. If you've taken damage since the beginning of the round, you roll with disadvantage. If you roll less than 10 on the saving throw, the flames become unwieldy, and you take 6d8 points of fire damage as the Blazing Inferno engulfs you. If you roll 10 or greater but less than 21, you successfully channel the Blazing Inferno, consuming 8 chi points. A wave of fire erupts from your position in a 30-foot cone, engulfing all creatures in its path. Each creature in the cone must make a Dexterity saving throw against your Bending Save DC, taking 12d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much on a successful one. The area becomes difficult terrain as it is scorched by the intense heat. If you roll 21 or higher, you masterfully control the Blazing Inferno, consuming only 5 chi points. The engulfing flames become even more intense and spread further. The cone increases to a 60-foot cone, and the fire damage increases to 16d6. In addition, creatures that fail their saving throws are also blinded for 1 minute as their vision is consumed by flames. This alternative ability, Blazing Inferno, allows you to unleash a powerful wave of fire to devastate your enemies, offering an equally powerful option to the original lightning bending feature.

Certainly! Here's an alternative feature to replace the combustion feature without using lightning or combustion:

Unyielding Inferno: Starting at 18th level, you have achieved mastery over the destructive power of firebending. You can now unleash an Unyielding Inferno, a technique of unparalleled raw power.

As an action, you create a massive ball of intense flames without consuming any chi points. This fireball is larger and more devastating than a regular fireball, fuelled by your unparalleled mastery over fire. The fireball can be launched at a target within 150 feet of you. Each creature within a 20-foot radius of the target must make a Dexterity saving throw against your Bending Save DC. On a failed save, they take 12d6 fire damage, or half as much on a successful save.

In addition, the intensity of the Unyielding Inferno sets the area ablaze. The ground within a 40-foot radius of the target becomes difficult terrain and is covered in flames. Any creature that starts its turn within the area or enters the area for the first time on a turn takes 2d6 fire damage. The flames persist for 1 minute or until extinguished through magical means.

The Unyielding Inferno is a demonstration of your immense power as a firebender, allowing you to unleash a massive fireball of devastating proportions. This ability provides an alternative with equal power to the original combustion feature while remaining solely on fire bending techniques. -Tellef Landherr 08/09/24