Talk:Fencing Magician (5e Class)

I wanted to note that "the finest mithril armor" is medium armor. Mithril chain shirts are still medium armor in 5e, unless you are using a house rule. Also, the Fencer's strike is more of a penalty. If my Dex is higher than my intelligence, then I don't want my int mod to apply to damage, let alone to give my opponent resistance to my attacks. If, on the other hand, my Intelligence if higher than my Dex, then I would probably prefer some other full caster class, where my chances t hit won't be limited by my Dex and, again, my opponents are less likely to be resistant to my attack. 2601:844:4207:9A0:C090:E92B:E7DE:1E80 12:48, 23 July 2016 (MDT)

1. "At level 1, you gain proficiency with light armours" - Light armor proficiency is already shown in the armor proficiencies, so no need to mention it here.
2. "and any chance of spell casting failure from wearing armour is ignored" - There isn't a "chance of spell casting failure"
3. "unless the armour is heavier than light armour" - since they aren't proficient with medium or heavy armor, the normal rules for spellcasting in nonproficient armor is used, so no need to mention this.
4. "This class feature does not provide proficiency with shields" - no need to mention this, as shields are not listed in the armor proficiencies.
5. "and shields impose the full spellcasting failure chance, if they can be used." - ditto note 3.

Conclusion: This entire sentence can be removed. Marasmusine (talk) 04:51, 15 February 2016 (MST)

Some more:

• "Enemies immune to critical hits " - there aren't any enemies immune to critical hits.
• "or who have advantage on melee defence rolls" - what is a "melee defense roll"?
• "are resistant (take half damage, rounded down)" - resistance is already defined in the PHB
• Defence archetype
  • mentions "spell failure chance" again.
  • "buckler" and "light shield" are not items in the PHB, if these are homebrew items please link to them.
  • Concentration might require a Constitution saving throw when taking damage. Not a "Constitution check", which is a different thing. You are proficient with a saving throw or not. If you want a benefit with a specific case of a saving throw, have it made with advantage.
  • "you gain advantage against the first melee attack made against you" - what does this even mean? Marasmusine (talk) 05:07, 15 February 2016 (MST)

"Should I revert proficiency progression to the stock standard progression?" - yes please, I found that adjustment a bit ugly. Marasmusine (talk) 05:10, 15 February 2016 (MST)

Addressed the concerns you raised

Hi Marasmusine. I have tried to address all the issues you highlighted in the discussion page.

Thanks, once I've gone through the whole thing, I'll go back and double check.

Next up.

• The "lagging" spell slots makes this incompatible with the rules for multiclassing spellcasting. Like the lagged proficiency bonus, messing with a uniform system is a bit "ugly".
• Duelling - "you gain the ability to impose disadvantage to the defence rolls " - 5e doesn't have "defence rolls".
• Two Weapon fighting - I'm not sure what "You only gain a single extra attack" means, since you only get one attack with the bonus action with two-weapon fighting anyway. Also note that 5e doesn't distinguish between "main hand" and "off hand" weapons (look at the wording of two-weapon fighting again)
• Two Weapon fighting - "attack imposes disadvantage on the enemy’s defence rolls " - defense roll again.
• "once per short rest" - It's not just you, everyone seems to use this phrase, but it's wrong, as it's ambiguous as to what point you regain the feature. The correct wording is "You regain the use of this feature again after you finish a short rest." Marasmusine (talk) 08:22, 15 February 2016 (MST)

Second list of corrections made

Hi Marasmusine. I have addressed the second list of concerns.

Corrected all the mistakes of referring to disadvantage on defence roll, changed to advantage on attack rolls.

I have scaled back the spell slot progression to half. I wanted a dedicated spell-caster class, but it could not match a wizard’s spell progression, as class has significant melee abilities.

The main reason for my lagging spell progression is that I wanted slow, gradual but constant progress throughout levelling, specifically gaining a single spell slot per level. This slow spell progression was offset by the slow and gradual gain in melee prowess from increasing proficiency and increasing ability scores. Interestingly, despite the slow and lagging spell progression, the spell slots / day caught up with those of pure caster towards the end of levelling, so it probably did need the nerf bat.

I have never been concerned about it looking ugly, more that it fits my vision of how it would play.

However, I understand that the spell progression does prevent multiclassing, so I just scaled it back to half spell progression instead of remaining in conflict with the rules.

(Rule question: Must all classes be able to multiclass, or can I create this class to exclude multiclassing and retain my lagging spell progression? I am guessing no.)

Even though I have lost the more spell-focused feel of the class (as said, I wanted it as a sort of wizard melee-variant), I believe it should perform well owing to the overlapping key ability scores in dexterity and intelligence.

Question: 1. Should I reduce the number of melee abilities and recast it as a wizard variant, or do you agree that half-spell progression is sufficiently good to give a decent spell-caster? 2. Should I make the HD d8s instead, or will d6 HD suffice for this class?

(As you might have guessed, I originally conceived of this class using 3.5 and a Tiefling level+1 character, hence the lagging spells and proficiency.)

The aim of the build was to have gradual spell progression and limited but gradual increase in combat prowess. I hope that by paring down to half spell progression, I retain the feel of the class as a magic-heavy class with some combat features.

I'm not certain of the answers yet, as I haven't grokked the whole class. Still going through the nitty gritty :)

I don't have time today, but quickly I did spot "free action" with Aclarity, this technically isn't a thing anymore (PHB p. 189-190), so I would say "At the start of your turn you may cast haste on yourself. This does not require an action or spell components, and it does not use up a spell slot. The haste effect ends at the end of your turn. [...] You regain the use of this feature at the next dawn." I'm not sure what actions are not physical actions? Marasmusine (talk) 03:41, 16 February 2016 (MST)

• Hi Marasmusine. Thanks for the reply. I did tweak the Alacrity description to match your suggestions. I will wait for any other suggestions or corrections when you have time to review the class.

Changing the class moderately to match lower spell progression

I am going to remove some of the clunk mechanics of the class to function closer to PHB classes.

Initially I had included a list of specifics that were intended to hobble the class as the spell progression was high. But, since I dropped the spell progression to half (to enable multiclassing), these balancing mechanics can also be removed.

Author's Commentary

The following text was originally present in the main article, but seemed to go mostly unnoticed at the bottom of the page. I am moving it here to make it more visible, and to make the main article a little neater. --Kydo (talk) 03:42, 24 January 2017 (MST)

Creative origins/inspiration

First-time poster says: howdy!

• The 3.5 swashbuckler class (NWN2) has always intrigued me, because of its class feature of intelligence modifier bonus to melee damage. The cross-over between a dexterity/finesse fighter that gains a bonus from intelligence and a mage, which has intelligence as the key ability, seemed natural.
• If this homebrew class seems overpowered (and I have tried to avoid that), please suggest corrections or changes. I originally based the build on the bard spell progression since bards are insanely awesome and I used the bard class as a template to create a Wizard’s version of the Fighter’s Eldritch Knight – a crossover class which remains dominant in the original class, namely wizard.
• The aim with this class was to create a caster with some benefit in melee from their key ability (Intelligence). Similar classes can potentially be made for Charisma or Wisdom casters.

Talk: Corrections, suggestions and balance from homebrew crowd

• I want the class to be mainly a spell casting class with some oomf in CQB. This is not a combat class, as it has d6 HD and few class features besides its spell casting and intelligence melee damage modifiers.
• The mageblade homebrew class was instrumental in creating this class
• Arcane Renewal is limited to spell slots of level 3 or lower.
• Your thoughts….

Original Fencing magician spell progression

My original thought with the Fencing magician was to have a wizard who lags others in terms of spells known, and only ever gains a single spell slot per level from level 2 - 20. Interestingly enough, despite the lag, this progression caught up with those of dedicated casters by around level 20.

The number of spell slots is shown in the Fencing magician progression table and is equal to your level – 1, and determine the number of prepared spells that you can cast a day.

Important note: Your spell progression is not the same as a full wizard, but follows a lagging spell progression table. You start casting from level 2 with two cantrips and one first level spell slot. You only gain a single additional spell slot per level and never gain access to level 8 or level 9 spells.

L2, L3 etc indicate level, 1st, 2nd, etc indicate spell level. Spells progress as follows:

• Cantrips known = 2 from lvl2-4, 3 from lvl5-9, 4 from lvl10.
• L____1st__2nd_3rd_4th__5th_6th__7th
• L02:__1
• L03:__2
• L04:__3
• L05:__4
• L06:__4___1
• L07:__4___2
• L08:__4___3
• L09:__4___3___1
• L10:__4___3___2
• L11:__4___3___3
• L12:__4___3___3___1
• L13:__4___3___3___2
• L14:__4___3___3___3
• L15:__4___3___3___3___1
• L16:__4___3___3___3___2
• L17:__4___3___3___3___3
• L18:__4___3___3___3___3___1
• L19:__4___3___3___3___3___2
• L20:__4___3___3___3___3___2___1
• L____1st__2nd_3rd_4th__5th_6th__7th

At level 20, a Fencing magician knows 4 cantrips, and a total of 19 spell slots, 4 level one, 3 level two, 3 level three, 3 level four, 3 level 5, 2 level six, 1 level seven, 0 level eight and 0 level nine spells.

Kydo Reviews

Touche

Smart. Does as intended, making a practical int-based SAD gish class.

Lightly armoured arcanist

What the heck does this feature do? Which armors are the lightest? Does that mean I can only wear padded armor? Why would armor I'm proficient with inhibit my spell casting ability? With a bit more focus on one of the pillars of adventure, this sounds like a good basis for a ribbon, at least!

Right. This could be better suited to grant proficiency in one medium armor of your choice. --Green Dragon (talk) 10:45, 24 January 2017 (MST)

Conflicted combatant

Also does not do anything. This is good flavor text! It should be in the description of the class, not sequestered aside in a function less feature.

I changed this. --Green Dragon (talk) 10:45, 24 January 2017 (MST)

Spellcasting

Probably the most elaborate generic spell casting feature I've ever seen. The main issue I'm seeing is that there is no in-class method of acquiring spells. That means I'd be 100% dependent on the DM to provide opportunities for me to add spells to my spell book. Since adding spells to a spell book in-play costs money, I'd actually be forced to pay out just to make use of this feature at all. (At a rate of 50gp a pop, no less!)

Thanks for putting the text together right. --Green Dragon (talk) 10:45, 24 January 2017 (MST)

Archetype Fighting Style

What a Damn cool idea! Needs a bit of work on the wording though.

I agree of course. I will work on the wording by the time when we reach the archetypes. --Green Dragon (talk) 10:47, 24 January 2017 (MST)

Skilled

OK, so it works well as a sort of demi-skillmonkey, fine.

Boundless Leap

There is an easier way to do this. There are rules for jump heights and distances in the PHB. Simply state that this feature doubles all of those values.

Changed this, in agreement. --Green Dragon (talk) 10:45, 24 January 2017 (MST)

Arcane Renewal

What a neat idea! I like the language of measuring levels-worth of spell slots. It is a very simple and clear way of describing the subject.

Alacrity

Once per day is uncommon language in 5e for non-spells. The trend is to say once per long rest, because this reduces silly arguments about when a "day" rolls over.

Right. --Green Dragon (talk) 10:45, 24 January 2017 (MST)

Bladeweave

What a deadly feature. This turns certain spells into reliable easy victories.

Changed this to dex mod / day. --Green Dragon (talk) 10:45, 24 January 2017 (MST)

Spellcasting Expanded

Oh! There's the rest of the Spellcasting feature! I'll go ahead and put it back together for you. --Kydo (talk) 04:10, 24 January 2017 (MST)

I updated the HD to d8 to be more like the Warlock (for example). --Green Dragon (talk) 08:54, 25 January 2017 (MST)

Appreciation and One correction

Thanks for reviewing and correcting this class. I spotted one more problem that I overlooked:

The Defence archetype fighting style specifies "while wearing light armour, you gain +1 bonus to AC", but this should be changed to "armour that you are proficient with" to ensure that Fencing Magicians using medium armours (as per the new lightly armoured arcanist feature) can still benefit from this archetype.

In response to Kydo's comment, I will be adding a way for the Fencing magician to gain spells while levelling up.

I will use the Wizard template, but halve the number of new spells gained per level to 1.

Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook for free. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table. On your adventures, you might find other spells that you can add to your spellbook.

Updated to short-rest

Hello. I updated the defence and duelling archetype features to recharge after short-rests to better suit the class' style.

Lack of Synergy

The subclass features have nothing to do with the core class. No feature related to magic, or with using magic and melee combat as one. Anastacio (talk) 00:32, 13 August 2020 (MDT)

Changes

I've made a lot of changes on the features, without changing the theme and the idea behind the features. I am trying to accomplish a class that can integrate more the combat with the magic, and inserting some of my own ideas in this class.

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