Talk:Fallen Human (5e Race)

Red Soul's Reset Ability

[revision 02:51, 27 September 2018 by ConcealedLight‎] - removal of reset ability
I'll contest this. It's clear this work is intended to be a faithful adaptation of a subject from another medium, the fallen human from the game Undertale. In that game, the ability of the red soul to "reset" is a very pertinent mechanic, as it replaces the role of the typical "game over - retry?" mechanic with a canon explanation, with enemies and events even reacting to the fact that this is not the first time you've interacted with them. In that sense, although adapting this ability into a multi-person rpg-set comes with it's flaws, as it is, indeed, a very powerful ability, it does not come without precedent. Instead of rejecting the ability outright, perhaps we can see to it to assist the creator(s)/wiki in making an adaption that is both faithful to the source material, but also respects the limitations of the 5e system? --ZarHakkar (talk) 09:05, 27 September 2018 (MDT)

That's not a valid {{needsbalance}} reason. The ability to add your proficiency bonus to death saving throws is strong enough alone and compared to the other subraces abilities that in addition to the now removed trait or even the following is not comparatively balanced. As far as trying to make it more balanced, using the half-orcs Relentless Endurance trait seems like the easy way out. Another way may be granted that but instead making it a Wisdom save against half the damage that reduced you below 0 hit points and then making it recharge on a short rest instead of a long rest. —ConcealedLight (talk) 13:03, 27 September 2018 (MDT)

It might have been a little vague, but the {{needsbalance}} template was calling to the entirety of the Red Soul's abilities, not just the Reset ability. As you said yourself, even Unbreakable Will on it's own overshadows much of the other features of the other subraces. I feel like there should be granted an opportunity to combine and rework the two abilities in a way that is both balanced comparatively to the other subraces and as faithful as possible to the source material. Setting up a template and opening up a discussion about it seems a lot more constructive than removing a feature outright.

...

What are the valid reasons for a {{needsbalance}} template? Are they listed somewhere? --ZarHakkar (talk) 13:36, 27 September 2018 (MDT)

Yeah, that's fine and is better than just moving a complete/ balanced page to the needs work section because of a questionable IP edit. As for {{needsbalance}}, I can't recall atm. However, I've learned the hard way that other editors don't like the so-called one sentence "This is wrong" type entries for maintenance template and they should be more specific so even users without much knowledge of the system can still use it to inform and hopefully address the issue. For example, on this talk page where I explained the strength of "Unbreakable Will", the strength of the subrace compared to the others and then the effect of adding the proposed trait. I hope that explains it then. —ConcealedLight (talk) 15:34, 27 September 2018 (MDT)

Age

I think that fallen hummans should live as long as normal humans if not longer because they are still humans after all

Red Soul's weapon

Isn't 1d4+20 damage after killing 100 enemies a bit underwhelming? The previous versions added a dice for every level of the dagger, but it leveled up after every enemy killed. If the damage is nerfed, shouldn't the leveling up be easier? I'm sure there can be a middle point for both. Maybe getting back the dices, setting up a maximum (like 10 dices or something) and/or improving the leveling up of the dagger?

I'd suggest that levels are incremental. What I mean is that the first few levels require not many kills, but it gets higher every level. Maybe even removing the part that enemies must be killed with the dagger and setting it up with the character's level, being that the weapon is the character's soul. What about 1d4 extra per two or three (character or dagger) levels?

There is a chart on Undertale's wiki that can be used for stat references and can even be extrapolated for every soul's weapon. Also there is another table for the number of enemies on each zone (thus displaying the number of enemies required for LV 20).

Hope this helps!

A greatsword with 20 strength deals an average of 11 damage. This deals 27. Even with the proposed change(giving 1d4 every 3rd level) this becomes 6d4, which is 17. A +3 greatsword, which is possible at that level, has an average of 14 damage.

The damage shouldn't even scale in the first place, at least not permanently and to a much lower limit. --SwankyPants (talk) 06:19, 23 February 2021 (MST)

Soul Weapons and their Ludicrousness

Since this class is getting plenty of attention, I wish to try and steer that in a more balanced direction.

• Determination's knife deals 27(1d4 + 20 + 5) on average, or 17(6d4 + 5) on average with the proposed change. I always count it as +20 since you could just kill 100 rats with it. The proposed version is less crazy, but still steps on the toes of some high level magic items, and how Fear scales(even if it shouldn't)
• Patience's fake knife deals 7(1d4 + 5) on average. This would be fine, potentially underpowered, if it didn't allow you to cast a 5th level spell at will.
• Bravery's glove deals 8(1d6 + 5) + 3(1d6) on average. Mostly fine again, but making the constant saves does slow down the game a bit.
• Integrity's ballet shoes(???) deal 11(2d6 + 5) on average, however that special property turns this into a roided finesse greatsword when you get Tunnel Fighter, which you get at 1st level.
• Perseverance's notebook(?????) deals 7(1d4 + 5) on average. Same deal as Patience, however this is a 1st level spell you can cast 2-6 times. Not as broken, but still concerning.
• Kindness' frying pan deals 8(1d6 + 5) on average, and doubles as a shield while not counting as a shield. This allows for an AC of 21(shield, frying pan, studded leather, 20 dexterity) without any magical items at about 4th level. Also INFINITE HEALING.
• Justice's revolver deals 13(2d8 + 5) on average, but this is once every three turns. The average DPR is 4.33.
• Fear's sword deals 8(1d6 + 5), and up to 18(6d6 + 5) or 24(8d6 + 5) for fighters on average. This is obviously ridiculous.
• Hate's axe deals 11(1d12 + 5) on average, and allows you to make an extra attack with it. Less ludicrous than fear, but still ludicrous.

Clearly, most of these weapons need to be tuned down. --SwankyPants (talk) 08:52, 1 March 2021 (MST)

Suggestion: instead of scaling with creatures killed, Determination's knife just scales with character level. --ZarHakkar (talk) 00:21, 29 March 2021 (MDT)

I have a few suggestions I'd like to add:

• I agree with ZarHakkar. It makes a lot more sense mechanically to scale Determination's knife damage with character level. One possibility is making it 1 extra point of damage per half the character level (rounded up), resulting in 17(1d4 + 10 + 5) on average. Another possibility is upscaling the damage dice by 1d4 per 4 character levels. This would result in an average of 15(5d4 + 5). Associating increased damage with character level also shows how your Soul grows stronger over time.
  • Though, the concept Determination was based on (from the original game UNDERTALE, by Toby Fox) was that the more you killed, the stronger you became, but also the more hated you were; hence the "demonic" appearance the knife progressively takes on. I'm not sure how you would show that mechanically without the possibility of making the weapon incredibly powerful before you get to level 4, or even level 2.
• I had the idea of scaling Kindness' Others Come First healing in a similar way to Bardic Inspiration: starting at 1d6, then going to 1d8, 1d10, and 1d12, upscaling every 5 levels. You add your Charisma modifier, then perhaps halve either the die roll or the total value (rounding up). Furthermore, the die size from Kindness' frying pan's healing could also scale in such a way: 1d6 to 1d12 every 5 levels.
• I agree that Justice's revolver is quite slow. I would at least have it be out of commission for 6 seconds. This would bring the average DPR up to 6.5. That still seems quite low, though. But maybe it's not?
• Another thing: can we talk about Fear's Rhabdaphobia? That's a 100 foot diameter (50 foot radius) DC15 Wisdom save. You can engulf just about the entire battlefield with that. The feature also doesn't say how often you can use it, and I doubt this ability was meant to be used at will.
  • I might actually be exaggerating how overpowered Rhabdaphobia is; it's only 10 squares in every direction. While this is powerful, it's balanced a bit more by not being able to use your Soul Weapons for 1d6+1 turns. The main thing I'm concerned about is how often it can be used. --Sharpy796 (talk) 19:16, 12 May 2021 (CST)

I noticed that the Pink Soul's abilities got modified a bit, and I like it a lot better! Another few things:

• Being a Fallen Human already gives you proficiency in Insight. Fear also gives you Insight proficiency, so that should probably be replaced with a different skill or some other mechanic, such as expertise or advantage (I believe having both expertise and advantage is just a little too much).
• Should Rhabdaphobia only be able to be used on an attacker that you can see, and, on a failed save, does the ability nullify the spell that was just cast? Also, having the attacker not be able to cast spells until the *start* of their next turn seems a little underwhelming. That only prevents a possible bonus action (like Healing Word) and reactions (like Shield). I think the effect should at least last until the end of their next turn, possibly (and preferably) longer. --Sharpy796 (talk) 16:04, 13 May 2021 (CST)

I agree that I might have underpowered a few things, but right now overcorrecting is better than undercorrecting, as once everything is more in place, we can scale things up as needed. The insight proficiency is a bit of a whoopsie on my part though, yeah. Anyways, I'd say the rest of the stuff should be fixed before we decide on if things can or should be stronger. --SwankyPants (talk) 15:09, 13 May 2021 (MDT)

Fixing, Rebalancing

The previous section was mostly to explain the tag, since this page has a lot of traffic from certain users I figured I should properly state my case. As there may now be interest in doing something about the problems, here's another section. Just setting it up in advance. Don't need to indent for this if you want to. --SwankyPants (talk) 15:13, 13 May 2021 (MDT)

• Solidify mechanics for soul weapons in the racial traits(summoning, magical resistance, what happens when you die).
  • Potentially remove reliance on certain forms? So you aren't stuck specifically with a sword or frying pan, and you can take something like a battleaxe or trident if you really want. Would require a rework of a few weapons. Could have limits based on the subrace(no heavy/two-handed for some, maybe no finesse for hate?).
• Bringing the benefits from each weapon closer to a 1st level spell, or 1 point trait from the musicus meter.
• Deal with the wacky wording but that's just a given.

Just some general ideas. I don't know much about undertale and thus the specifics on how anything should be pulled off, but those are just some quick things that came to mind. I also didn't wanna leave this spot completely empty, so there's that. --SwankyPants (talk) 15:30, 13 May 2021 (MDT)

• Yeah, I realized quite a bit on how these are. Rhabdophobia in Glitchtale is capable of allowing its user to take control of and effectively "steal" magical attacks/effects. Pretty broken, despite it leaving the user seemingly powerless for a few moments. Might make a class based around the "Black Beast", since Betty's moveset honestly bodes far too much of a simple soul to encompass. --Kalenchoe (talk) 23:20, 13 May 2021 (BST)
  • On another note, Hate as a whole basically gets 1/4th of a revive once per short/long rest, dunno how that scales but I'm fairly certain that most other races or classes with death-resisting effects can drop down to 1 HP. --Kalenchoe (talk) 10:42, 14 May 2021 (BST)

Also, quick idea. Based upon the context, I think a way to surmount the limited weapon variety is to simply give the base Fallen Human an ability that allows them to summon their "proficient weapon" at will. A bit like Finn's Grass Sword from Adventure Time, except you form it out of whatever trait is respective to... ...uh, your respective soul. Limits could be placed upon that, and I can imagine up to two energy weapons being created. --Kalenchoe (talk) 23:24, 13 May 2021 (BST)

“...simply give the base Fallen Human an ability that allows them to summon their "proficient weapon" at will.” So we’d give them a few weapon proficiencies from the race, and they can summon those? Or they can just summon any weapon they have proficiency with(barring limits)? I’m thinking the former would work better, if that’s what you meant.

Rhabdophobia does certainly sound problematic. Maybe the current form could stick around, and then we have a racial feat that allows them to take from the target’s spell list, adding to theirs?

Finally, yeah. Hate should just have normal relentless endurance. --SwankyPants (talk) 07:36, 14 May 2021 (MDT)

• • I am generally unopposed to the idea of summoning weapons the user is already proficient with, since that was what I intended to go for here. On that note, I do feel that Rhabdophobia would be particularly unusual to adapt, the current form would be interesting to keep around, although with my plans to later rework Fear; that racial feat honestly does seem to be one of the better routes to take. I feel I should elaborate on that Fear rework I'm talking about, but I'll get to that another time. Maybe buff how long it disables, though.

On a different note though, Hate does seem to grant its user high powers at the cost of their own decreasing mental state. Really, within the series that it actually originates from, Hate is a particularly difficult substance to get rid of. Unbreakable Will seems to be a viable alternative to its current Animosity, since the only two wielders of Hate managed to survive a fatal attack and regenerate from them; hmm, there's a thought, expending hit-dice. Oh well, I'll leave the balancing to you in the current moment. --Who should be Kalenchoe but isn't actually logged in (talk) 10:59, 17 May 2021 (BST)

I like the idea of having Hate being able to expend hit dice to heal, instead of automatically restoring a fourth of your health. Should doing so be a bonus action or an action? Also, I think there should be a limit to how many hit dice you can expend at once, so that you can't get hit a bunch and return to near-full health in an instant.

I remember seeing a feature like that on this site somewhere... I can't quite remember where. --Sharpy796 (talk) 15:43, 17 May 2021 (CST)

Leaving it as a bonus action would probably have us limiting the amount of Hit Dice used, while keeping it as an action would need to specifically 'focus' the Hit Dice into something a bit greater. A middle-ground between those two is possible, and I suggest making it a Bonus Action. As for the potential source, Sharpy; I believe I found something similar on a feat known as Vital Warrior.

Oh, as for one additional thing I remembered, the actual Fear soul itself from its original source material is a darker shade of orange-brown. Why the soul turned pink in the first place is due to a 'forbidden spell' the user cast on themselves, pretty certain they became something that isn't actually human...

Ah whatever, I'll get around to that when I actually start writing the class I want to make out of Betty's skillset. --Kalenchoe (talk) 10:49, 18 May 2021 (BST)

Alright, here’s a quick write-up of how soul weapons would work.

”Soul Weapon. As a bonus action, you can summon your soul weapon into one of your empty hands, or cause it to vanish. This weapon is one you are proficient in, and counts as magical for the purposes of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical damage. When you drop to 0 hitpoints, it also disappears into nothing. In addition to this, based on your subrace this soul weapon carries additional effects, and may provide limitations on the weapon summoned.”

So? How’s it look? This would go on the base race’s traits. --SwankyPants (talk) 09:51, 25 May 2021 (MDT)

I like this! I can't see anything about this that could be improved at the moment. The main thing I'm wondering about is how the weapon would be flavored, but honestly, that's less of a priority for now. Getting the race working for now is more important than making it all fancy. --Sharpy796 (talk) 19:23, 3 June 2021 (CST)