Talk:Enchanter, Variant (5e Class)

Not sure if I can do a unique background for the class but if I can I don't know how to put the template in. I have some really great ideas for it though.--MissLoyalty (talk) 20:20, 6 June 2018 (MDT)

I'd love to see some more ideas before I can work with it, because as it is right now, the class is very similar to others like the Escort class, which is also focussed on charming enemies and buffing allies. --ConcealedWife (talk) 05:50, 9 June 2018 (MDT)

Alrighty, MissLoyalty,

Here's my feedback on this class. If you want, you can take it for a grain of salt, but I just wanted to explain the massive changes I made. I also feel kinda bad for just editing for my preferences before talking to you first, but here's my thought process on this class! I'm just gonna do down the page and talk about the changes I made.

Firstly, there are a number of grammatical and wording errors in the opening paragraph and in the Creating an Enchantress section. Because you, the author of the page, aren't verbally saying the words in the first three sentences, I suggest adding those to a quote template. There are also run-on and incomplete sentences after that.

The title of "Creating a Enchantress" should be "Creating an Enchantress" since the word "Enchantress" starts with a vowel. There are a couple more grammatical errors in this paragraph, but it's nothing a quick proofread won't fix.

On to the Class Features. If you give the class proficiency in simple melee weapons, they won't have access to a weapon you give them in the equipment section, specifically the Battle Fan, which is a martial melee weapon. Additionally, this is a homebrew weapon, so be sure to provide a link to it. In terms of proficiencies, I don't quite understand how the Enchantress class would have access to the History and Investigation skills. If you're trying to enchant people and stuff like that, I don't really see them as the analytical book-smart type.

I'm also sort-of confused with the inclusion of a Harp as a proficiency and as a piece of equipment you receive when taking the class. I don't really see characters carrying a huge harp around with them all the time, and the Harp doesn't connect at all with any of the class features except for Siren's Lure. Even if you wanted to connect it with the Siren Subclass, the subclass uses your voice entirely, so the Harp is kinda just there to add a couple feet of range to one feature. I suggest including a bag of charcoal and a vial of ink instead as this allows you to immediately use a material other than blood for drawing your enchanted mark.

Before diving into the features specifically, I noticed a huge problem right off the bat. A large majority of these features don't have a limit to the number of times you can use them, and if they do it's more than what's the usual for a class feature. Doing this makes every feature exploitable, which is definitely not okay. Also, there are some wording issues regarding what to call things. More specifically, class features are called features, not abilities.

Enchanted Mark. This feature seems to be the main focus of the class, but it's complicated in terms of its wording. It says that drawing the mark takes a minute to complete, so does that mean the creature must make six rounds of saving throws for the mark to be completed? Also how are you able to keep a creature still for an entire minute without using the enthrall feature? Additionally, the whole ability to stop a creature's action is definitely beyond the balance of 5e. The charmed condition prevents people from harming you with anything and I feel that balance and flavor-wise it fits more with the class.

In terms of a theatrical explanation of character interaction, the interaction of characters in any way consists of an initial action from one party and then the reaction of the other party. If you take away the action of the first party, there's no reaction for the other character, and therefore the whole roleplaying part of D&D is lost. As a DM, a player of mine really wanted to try this class and it ended up being the enchantress dominating over the choice that I wanted to make as a DM, so it ended up being less fun for the both of us.

See the variant that I made to see how I think this feature should be worded.

Lover's Touch. Having a creature automatically fail all saving throws, let alone at the 2nd Level, is also beyond the scope of what is considered balanced in 5th edition. It combos way too well with the other class features and makes you way too powerful way too early in the game. Like the Enchanted Mark feature, it also hinders roleplaying opportunities, as explained in that feature.

Spellcasting. I saw that this feature was missing, so I wanted to make sure that it was present since two of the three subclasses you've made include spellcasting. I also suggest letting enchantresses choose from the bard spell list, since many class features on this page are just re-worded versions of bard spells.

Enthrall. This is an exact copy of the enthrall spell, only far more powerful. In my variant, I deleted this and replaced it with a different feature.

Forgetis Aboutis. This is a copy of the modify memory spell, a 5th level spell, but is even more powerful and you get access to it an entire 12 levels before you have access to 5th level spells. I also replaced this feature in my variant.

Dagger of Charming. You mention the charmed condition in this feature, but you also have the charmed creature attack any target you want. I feel like this is taking even more control away from the DM in terms of how combat encounters go, so I reworded this in my feature.

Mark Detonation. Honestly, I thought that this feature was fine. However, it isn't explained how charges are added to creatures to deal more damage. If the marks stack somehow, how do enchantresses spend 10 minutes keeping a creature still adding 10 marks to them?

Okay, now onto the subclasses. Before going into these I wanted to say you forgot to add subclass features at the 8th and 18th level for the Siren Path.

Siren's Link. I thought hearing everything they hear was fine as well, as long as the mark had some sort of time-based duration (see Enchanted Mark feature on my variant). I don't even think the debuff of being vulnerable to damage is needed if the Enchanted Mark feature is re-worded.

Siren's Lure. This should be a Wisdom saving throw instead of a Charisma saving throw. I feel like this is another version of the Enthrall class feature except they walk to you now.

Siren's Song. This is also an exact copy of bardic inspiration, except you're only using one action to give everyone a stronger bardic inspiration die.

Siren's Screech. There's a lot of grammatical and wording issues here. Rather than adding the link to the conditions at the end of the feature, use templates such as {{5c|}} to add the links to the conditions. The stunned condition needs to have a duration as well. Finally, having this just work without a save is a little broken as well, so I'd suggest adding a saving throw to this.

Siren's Spell List. See the Spellcasting section.

Alchemist Network. I really liked this feature. However, the duration of it is way too long. Having someone potentially distracted and having their vision obscured for five hours gives way too much of an advantage to the party as a whole, not just the enchantress. See my variant to see how I reworded this feature.

Channel Spell. This feature is very vague in how it works. How do you "channel spell power" into a potion? What happens when you throw channeled potions? I didn't know what this feature did and replaced it in my variant.

Potion List. I replaced this entire system with the poultice system that I contributed to for my ranger variant. The way that it was worded here didn't make sense. What are you consuming when you "consume 4d6"? 4d6 what? Applying "1d6" to weapon? What is this damage type? This feature was kinda all over the place, so that's why I replaced it.

Alchemist's Metamagic & Alchemist's Recovery. This seems to be taken from the sorcerer class. As you've mentioned in the class, the mana system isn't even explained in the class, so I removed both of these features in my variant.

Alchemist's Burden. This seems way underpowered for an 18th level feature. Constitution saves are very common and most high-CR creatures have big bonuses to these. Additionally, the poisoned condition is very easy to get rid of and resist as well, so this feature kinda falls flat in terms of effectiveness.

Alchemist's Spell List. See the Spellcasting section.

Dancer's Connection. This is the Siren's Link feature except it deals with sight instead of hearing. If you want to do this, just copy over what it says on Siren's Link and balance-wise it should be fine. You can just get rid of the other stuff about Stealth proficiency.

Paralyzing Touch. There isn't a DC for this saving throw and there isn't a duration for the paralysis. I moved this feature to an actual class feature in my variant and replaced this with something else.

Dancer's Strike. This is the rogue's sneak attack feature. I wanted to redo this, so I removed it and replaced it with something else in my variant.

Weapon Charm. I thought this was perfectly fine. I just slightly changed the wording in my variant to make it read easier.

Dancer's Attire. This resembles the Assassin rogue subclass's features, but here these features are kind of squished into one. It didn't make too much sense, and there are spelling errors in there as well, so I removed it in my variant.

Assassinate. Bleed isn't a condition in 5e, so please provide a link to this condition if you are using a variant rule. "Ability" is the wrong word to call a feature, as I said at the beginning of reviewing the class features. There also needs to be a limit to the number of times you can do this if the damage is that high.

Finally, I wanted to talk about your idea of adding a background to it. Backgrounds provide additional proficiencies, languages, and equipment as well as an out-of-combat feature. The only thing you provided with the background is more character backstory and flavor, which is completely fine, but you need to add it to its own page as a background instead of just tacking it to the end of the class.

Well, that's about it. I'm sorry I sound rude or condescending in any way. This is all to help you and to provide my opinions. This review is completely constructive in its nature and I am very happy with the work that you've done. This is my take on it and my reasoning behind the complete rework that I did. Thanks, and it was a pleasure providing my opinion to you! :)

Sincerely,
EpicBoss99 (talk) 14:36, 5 September 2018 (MDT)

Hey, EpicBoss99

Thank you so much for the feedback! I'm taking each note and changing the features. I love everything you are saying and it makes a lot of sense, I am trying really hard on learning how to balance things and your comments help A TON. Also go ahead and just fix the grammar and wording crap, I'm not good with that kind of stuff and I just let my fingers run wild on the keyboard.

When I do finish my edits if things still seem a bit off go ahead and just do your own again. The only reason I didn't like some edits is because I had a vision of what I wanted to make and just did it. I also really liked your version of alchemist.

With much appreciation, --MissLoyalty (talk) 15:19, 5 September 2018 (MDT)

Changing features

Hey, EpicBoss99

I took most of your edits and ended up keeping them. Your reasoning made sense and fit better. Reasoning behind just changing other features, well because I loved the features themselves. When I originally made this class I wanted it to be more of the sneaky spy class with lots of utilities. Most of my campaigns weren't solely based on combat so that's why some features didn't make much sense. They weren't all based on combat but things like information gathering.

Please look through what changes I made and let me know how you feel.

Sincerely, --MissLoyalty (talk) 16:17, 5 September 2018 (MDT)

Hey, MissLoyalty!

Good job on these changes! I completely understand how you feel. You've got a way you want to class to go, and I'm totally cool with that. However, there's still some things I think need elaborating or cleaning up:

The Enchanted Mark. I think just using an action to draw the symbol is fine. Also, I think you should have a couple more times than just once where you can draw the mark. With the 7th Level and 14th Level upgrades of this feature, you need to specify what "simple commands" means. In my variant, I said that it meant that the command couldn't reduce a creature's hit points or force another creature to make a saving throw. I think that would be just fine. Also, I'd avoid using the whole "At the DM's disgression" thing at the 14th level. The class should be balanced enough where you don't need to DM to interact with it. Finally, the 3rd level subclass features are only balanced if there's a duration for how long the mark lasts on a creature. It's not fair to expect the DM to remember that the creature has to remove the mark themselves.

The class still needs a spellcasting feature at the 2nd level to specify how the class uses spells. I can add this for you if you'd like to to, using the spell lists for the subclasses you provided.

Lover's Touch. This needs to be a Wisdom saving throw instead of a Charisma saving throw, as the creature's trying to use their mental understanding of your trickery to resist your charm, not competing against it. Putting a duration on this feature doesn't change the balance of it. I still think that this is overpowered and needs to be changed.

Enticing Allure. This doesn't need a number of uses. It's a passive feature, which means you don't use an action to activate it. If you want to use this feature from my variant, just copy/paste the wording that I had on my variant.

Forgetis Aboutis. This feature is still extremely vague. How do you wipe the memory of a creature? What's the range of it? What kind of action is required to use this feature? Also, like I said before, it can be used an infinite number of times, so it's still not balanced and I strongly recommend removing it.

Brewing. If you're going to use the poultice system I used for the ranger variant, you have to put the potion slot table and the link to the poultices I provided as well. Otherwise, the feature doesn't make sense.

Channel Spell. Both of these are still super vague. As I've asked before, what does "channel spell power" mean? How many times can you do this? What kind of action does this use? If it does what I think it does, I don't really think it should be included in this subclass.

Dancer's Connection. Please remove the stealth/expertise part, as you've already included it in Dancer's Stealth.

Assassinate. As I've said before, bleeding out isn't a condition in 5e, so linking the SRD conditions page isn't going to help. Either find a variant rule on bleeding out or remove this part of the feature.

Keep up the good work. You're doing well! :)

Sincerely,
EpicBoss99 (talk) 17:31, 5 September 2018 (MDT)

Wasn't logged in

Concealed wife, im sorry, i wasn't logged in and i didnt think the alchemist fit well.

Multi-classing

What is needed for multi-classing? I am unsure what is meant by this. I haven't been on in awhile so unsure what is now needed.