Talk:Elnade (5e Race)

so Geodude, you feel the elnade as a race is to powerful. mind explaining what makes it super op? because when i decided to bring the elnade from 3.5e to 5e i left out some of their benifits. so that way, because its not listed on the 5e varient i put up, they are either susceptible or have no benefits in dealing with. like the turn, control elemental thing. i left that out, specifically so that way they may be free willed and a strong race, but they can be controlled with a strong enough spell or possible item like the srd item, Ring of Water Elemental Command. also culturally they stay around water but they can venture deep inland. by doing so if no body of water is present they cant get their movement speed increase. additionally they have prefered classes that only benifit them if used, other than those they cant empower their own racial abilities. so when you get a chance geodude, i would like to hear your input.--Justsomedndplayers (talk) 19:55, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Let's look at the features that it gets:

• +2 Dex/+2 Wis. This isn't that bad by itself, but most official races are +2/+1, and the only official race to give +2/+2, the mountian dwarf, also gives medium armor proficiency regardless of class, which doesn't benefit the martial classes it seems to be inclined towards like Fighter and Barbarian, and the classes that benefit from medium armor proficiency don't really care about the str boost, except maybe the rogue. By contrast, the elnade gets a lot of features that are all pretty powerful. I recommend reducing one of these boosts to +1.
• "Ageless" just rubs me the wrong way, though I don't think there's anything inherently bad about it; it's just flavor text anyway. If I had my way, I would have this say something to the effect of "they do not die of old age."
• The size section needs to say more than just "medium."
• Instead of saying that they have a 30 ft. movement speed on land and a 60 ft. movement speed in water, you should say that they have a speed of 30 ft. and a swimming speed of 60 ft. I personally feel that this swim speed is too powerful and think it should be reduced to 30 ft/rd swim speed, comparable to the triton and the half-elf variant.
• A short rest being considered a long rest is just too strong and means that an elnade spellcaster gets basically three times as many spell slots per day as a spellcaster of any other race, going by the assumption in the DMG that a party should get two short rests between long rests.
• Giving a free feat is also extremely strong. The only official race to get a feat at level 1 is the human variant, and that is its only feature, compared to the many other abilities the elnade gets.
• Simple Gear Master also rubs me the wrong way, and is more powerful than the proficiencies granted by other races, but I don't think it's that bad since what it grants is stuff most classes already get. Except shield proficiency; you should probably get rid of that.
• Flat immunity to the paralyzed, poisoned, and stunned conditions is just too strong. The only other official race to get immunity to a status condition is the yuan-ti pureblood, a race that many, including myself, feel to be overpowered and poorly designed. I assume Pure Form also gives immunity to poison damage?
• The critical hit negation needs to go; nonliving creatures like elementals may have had critical hit immunity in 3.5e (I actually don't know since I never played that edition), but in 5e even undead and elementals can be struck with critical hits. Also, flanking isn't really a thing in 5e except as an optional rule the DM can use for monsters.
• Flat out immunity to fire damage.
• Enveloping Waters' healing allows basically an entire party to begin every fight at full HP, especially when combined with a short rest being considered a long rest for the elnade. This needs to go, or at least be heavily nerfed.
• Okay, racial Lay on Hands is cool. Something about it feels off to me, but I can't put my finger on exactly what, so it may be fine as is.
• Starting at level 2 and getting double experience messes with the math that 5e's experience tables are built on, and because the elnade gets double experience, they can quickly outshine party members of other races.
• "Languages" should read "You can speak, read, and write Common, Aquan, and one other language of your choice."
• "Preferred Classes" feels weird to me. So elnades get double experience and all these cool abilities, but only if they're a cleric or paladin of a water god, in which case they are reduced in power by an undefined amount? This both is vague and stifles character choices.

This needs a MAJOR revision if you want it to be even playable. It is vastly superior to any official race, even those like the yuan-ti or revenant which are already considered to be overpowered. Its spelling and grammar also need fixing. I would have done this myself, but I felt it unwise given the spat we had over the Arcane Ring.

Finally, was the elnade an official race in 3.5e, or something homebrewed? Google searches are only turning up stuff from this site and the other dnd wiki. --Geodude671 (talk) 21:07, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for responding in discussion first, i appreciate that vs just random edits. i would like to extend the chance to work together on this race, instead of arguing. now here is what i have done and why i have left it a certain way as of now.

the elnade is from here another wiki source.

secondly, when i first started playing dnd, i noticed they had specific strength direction, more in favor with religion and healing classes, culture ect. so i wanted to make it an interesting focal point. its a water elemental humanoid race, that does very well as a cleric, or paladin. alot of parties i have gone into have been missing a cleric or healer class because people tend to focus way to heavily on brute strength, asshole characters, super exotic OC characters that do everything because they can. when i brought the elnade over, admittedly it is strong now. but its strong in a direction and its versatility is *limited. now to address your points.

• the +2dex+2wisdom im keeping it that way because they are sapose to be nimble/agile and wise.
• ageless, i reworded hopefully it looks better.
• what else do you add to the size besides medium? the height and weight info is down below.
• 30 feet movement on land is base for almost everything, however they have double that in water. now unless the dm takes everyone into one of the elnade cities or something, this bonus movement is only in effect in water, if you do 30 in water and want to use the rest on land, its only 15 on land you would have.
• changed the short rest out. makes sense, however because they dont need to eat or sleep, i was trying to make it so they have to pray or something on a short rest to get a long rest. that was the idea.
• simple gear mastery is fine, cause a simple shield is what it covers. so anything bigger than like a regular shield they will have issues with.
• they have condition immunities to help keep them from being easily knocked around.
• Critical hit is turned to normal damage, instead of crazy severing of an arm thing, additionally not flankabale is because even if they are flanked, they tend to be able to hold themselves for a while in that situation, for any attack that hits them, if its non magical could just go right through. now if you want i can change it to be. Resistant to non magical weapons if thats more sound.
• i see the immunity to fire as like a rock paper scissors thing, Water beats fire, Fire beats Air,Earth beats Water, Air beats Earth.
• instead of start at lvl 2, its just +1 to the level, and i deleted the experience bonus out.
• languages i did the thing you suggested, it looked better.
• i know your all for nurfing this race, but i pre nurfed it by not adding in some of the other 3.5e benefits. like whenever turn,command,rebuke ect on an elnade happens they get a health boost and are resistant to the effect anyway. for example.

additionally i would like to thank you for posting in discussion first relating to the race. instead of going off and just editing it. thus sparking me to bring it back. i have delt with, and you have more than likely to, someone who just edits something because they can or they delete everything on the page and puts up the template (delete request) thus removing some of the work of someone who is trying. if you and i can just discuss the problems first, and you help with positive input, the edits would get made more agreeably and saves us both from partaking in edit wars. so, thanks again for posting in discussion first. i made some edits, if anything seems off, post here again and i will hear you out. --Justsomedndplayers (talk) 11:05, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

This is still way too powerful and needs to be brought in line with the power level of official races. In my opinion the following changes should be made:

• Decrease ability score boost to +1 Dex/+2 Wis. They're still nimble and wise, but the vast majority of 5e races get a +2 boost to one score and a +1 boost to another score.
• Age still needs reworking; how are new elnade formed? Do they just pop into existence fully mature?
• Alignment should never say "never X alignment," but rather, should say "X alignment only rarely" or something similar.
• Size: Look at the "size" section of the official races. It always states how tall and heavy the typical member of this race should be.
• Change movement speed to 25 walk/35 swim. If they are supposed to be less mobile on land than they are in the water, they should have a reduced land speed compared to other races.
• Get rid of the free feat. Feats are a lot stronger in 5e compared to their power level in 3.5. This is why 5e's human variant is considered one of the strongest races in the game, and the feat is its only racial feature! Compare that to the 3.5 human, which was simply above par compared to other races.
• Get rid of the shield proficiency. There's a reason that not even the mountain dwarf gets that.
• Immunity to a status condition is too strong. Give them advantage on saving throws against it instead, and remove their resistance to one of poison, paralysis, and stun. Basically make it like the elf's Fey Ancestry.
• Critical hit negation needs to go. Not interested in copypasting my comment on that from above. See that same comment wrt flanking; it is not a thing in 5e.
• Fire immunity should probably get taken down to a resistance.
• Get rid of Enveloping Waters. See above wrt my reasoning for that.
• Healing Waters feels somewhat inelegant; maybe give them free Cure Wounds once per short rest, and have it increase in level as the elnade levels a la the dragonborn's breath?
• Stronger than Normal needs to go because by nature it messes with the math of 5e's experience curve.

The 3.5 version of the elnade also feels very powerful with only 2 racial hit dice and a +0 LA, but I can't really improve upon it because I am not very knowledgeable about that edition of the game. Yes, I am all for "nurfing" this race, but the "pre-nurf[ing]" you've done is not sufficient; 3.5 and 5e operate on different math and are balanced differently.

Finally, please try to use proper spelling and grammar. when u talk like tis it make u sound uninteligint & unedjecated. When you use proper English (or the language of whatever other, non-English site you visit) people will take you more seriously and be more willing to consider your viewpoint. I understand if English is not your first language (though the specific mistakes I see you make do lead me to believe you are a native English speaker), but right now it seems as if you're not even putting in the effort. --Geodude671 (talk) 19:15, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

It was pointed out to me that that final paragraph sounded rude, and I just wanted you to know that that was not my intention. --Geodude671 (talk) 17:53, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Reading through this, im not exactly sure if this is stable or not. Is it? If so, I think it’s really good. Also maybe update the musicus rating? The page seems to have been updated heavily since the rating was posted.--Randomperson1212 (talk) 7:25, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Deletion

The main page has been deleted for copyright violation. Anyone who wishes to repost content found from another licensed wiki must do so using Template:Cc-by-3.0 and post attribution on the talk page. I apologize for the inconvenience, but will be leaving this talk page up in anticipation of someone remaking the page.--GamerAim (talk) 22:56, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

This is not true. This is a 5e page, and in addition that website broke every copyright standard by stealing pages, and infastructure that was not licensed under this license. We are not going down the road that has been so poorly trapped. This is a 5e page. That example, is 3.5e. In addition we actually hold the license from the format to most of the pages there. --Green Dragon (talk) 09:03, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Honestly, I was afraid you might get upset, so I'm sorry for drawing your attention to it. I didn't try tracking down that page on here, so I don't know if it has an edit history. What I DO know is that Justsomedndplayers linked to the page on that other wiki and I compared the fluff and found it identical and then checked the license. I'm not as knowledgeable on such things as you, so I'm not going to argue about it, but please understand that I was only working off of what I knew to protect the wiki from any sort of lawsuit from those guys. Please accept my apology? <3--GamerAim (talk) 12:18, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

I have done zero source checking here, but how can fluff be tranlated from 3.5e to 5e? I'll check the source. The original source is Elnades (3.5e Race) which is GNU FDL. The rest is just some licensing misunderstanding which I don't really want to explain. You can research it yourself if you prefer. --Green Dragon (talk) 15:33, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Correcting Balance Issues

GamerAim and I have decided that we are going to edit the main page to bring it in line with the power level of the official races. We will be using the Musicus scale and will be aiming for a score between 4-6 (I'll edit in a link when I'm not on mobile). I ask that you please keep in mind that we are trying to improve the page while still keeping the page's spirit. --Geodude671 (talk) 18:05, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

How do we feel about changing Healing Waters to work like the VGtM Aasimar's Healing Hands, since I just remembered that was a thing? --Geodude671 (talk) 19:46, 30 May 2017 (UTC) (20:15, 30 May 2017 (UTC) edit: GA approves, confirmed in tavern.)

I made the following changes to the race: I changed the speed to 25 walk/50 swim to mimic the Aarakocra, clarified what Elemental did and wrote out the full trance description as well as changing the name to "Elemental Body", Healing Waters now works like the Aasimar's Healing Hands, and minor text fixes. --Geodude671 (talk) 21:25, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

I made a couple minor changes to some of the racial features on the suggestion of Green Dragon. --Geodude671 (talk) 21:24, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

Addressing Justsomedndplayers' edits

Since Justsomedndplayers asked, here's an explanation which I hope will help. The problem here is the "Healing Waters" ability. It's essential that any feature which allows a player character to provide healing have a clearly defined limit, such as " Once you use this trait, you can't use it again until you finish a long rest", like the original revision did. Justsomedndplayers, I can see how Geodude could take issue with your edits, as whether or not you intended to, you don't seem to be considering how your version of the "Healing Waters" feature impacts the resource economy. Quincy (talk) 21:26, 15 January 2018 (MST)

To add on to what Quincy said above, my revision of the Healing Waters trait mimics the Healing Hands ability of the VGtM Aasimar, as noted in the discussion further up the page.

Additionally, you removed the similar limiters on the Drench ability. — Geodude671 (talk | contribs | email)‎ . . 21:34, 15 January 2018 (MST)

Your edits are granting overpowered healing and at-will powers, just like when this is mentioned above. Additionally, 1 inch is pretty small so getting into fortresses is just too easy. --Green Dragon (talk) 22:56, 15 January 2018 (MST)

That part I actually didn't take too much issue with. It seems strong at first glance, but you'll have problems getting your gear through such a small hole, and your partymates probably won't be able to follow you. — Geodude671 (talk | contribs | email)‎ . . 23:31, 15 January 2018 (MST)

Musicus Rating

Musicus Meter Score: 7-7.5

This race has a score of 7-7.5 according to the Musicus Meter race guidelines. With this metric, first-party races' scores range from 4.5 to 8. This is a guideline, not a rule, and it's important to use your own judgment alongside this scoring.

This scoring may be the groundwork for a focused {{needsbalance}} usage. A contributor to this page may request a detailed breakdown of this page's balance. Without this information, {{needsbalance}} may then be removed. This meter cannot be the sole basis for a needsbalance template, but may be included as an accessory to a wider discussion of a race's balance.

This template should only be placed on a race's talk page. If this template is not placed on the talk page, please move it.

ConcealedLight (talk) 12:25, 7 February 2018 (MST)