Talk:Dragonborn Angel (5e Subrace)

It has been five months since this page has been touched this page must either make its self a Race variation or be sent to oblivion(Aka deleted).--Erlek Thunder weaver (talk | contribs | email) 09:39, 14 November 2018 (MST)

Why can't Dragonborn have subraces? This might not have been touched for months because no real issue was mentioned with the page. If there is balance issue, state the issue! ~ BigShotFancyMan ^{talk contributions} 07:29, 22 March 2019 (MDT)

Wheel-War

A edit is made by an admin, another admin removes it, and the admin that did that original edit re-adds their edit has started a wheel war. I don't understand after it has been brought up several times why the discussion page isn't used. The stub is not valid. Rather than participate in actions that admins are desysop'd for, I'll ask why was it placed again when I removed it and used the talk page to inquiry about it. ~ BigShotFancyMan ^{talk contributions} 10:09, 22 March 2019 (MDT)

I built on the original {{stub}} by pointing out ways to fix the issue. The dragonborn doesn't have a subrace if you would check the SRD, for races that don't have subraces the 5e Race Variants option is used as it is for the tiefling and every other first party race that doesn't have subraces. Hence the template is perfectly valid.

Lasty, if you could avoid being so unceremonious in your attempts to open up a discussion by bringing up the revoking of privileges, the unnecessary bolding of text, the stating of opinions as if they are facts without providing any new information or examples as well as not acknowledging that another admin thought the stub was valid enough to propose this page for deletion. If you could expand your reasoning a bit more that would be appreciated. —ConcealedLight (talk) 06:12, 23 March 2019 (MDT)

"built on the original stub." right... we have different ideas of building then because while there were words added, I don't see the original stub gaining any extra information from what was added. The idea was restated in a different way, from my perspective.

I am not sure why it would be suggested to look at the SRD to see that dragonborn don't have subraces. If one would look at talk pages I clearly posted a questioned there asking why dragonborn cannot have subraces. It was ignored if I recall, or perhaps one would argue it was answered with dragonborn simply don't have them but there is no rule they can't have subraces. Nor can a user dictate that others cannot create subraces. I recall the tiefling had no subraces until a supplement book came out. Would it have been stated tieflings have no subraces too? Players can do this because not one user has direct control over every race despite efforts.

Just because you don't like the facts CL doesn't mean it is an opinion. The only opinion seen here is that dragonborn cannot have subraces and that I didn't acknowledge an admin thought the stub was valid. Its just that the stub is.. wrong.

SO! unless you can explain why you think users cannot create subraces for races and therefore limit their creativity for this site of....what's the word...homebrew! I'm going to remove the stub, again, because the only support there is is the lack of subraces in one book. If by chance there communication from the D&D designers that they'll never or should never have subraces then we can talk about it but I recall once saying hybrid creature types don't exist, never have and then some UA material came out. In fact, you support that sort of heresy. Did so without it existing and being a thing and yet users can't do that with dragonborn subraces...interesting. Who decides what can and can't be done for races? ~ BigShotFancyMan 07:09, 25 March 2019 (MDT)

You seem to misunderstand the distinction between 5e Subraces and 5e Race Variants. The latter being the correct place for this page. I will break it down as simple as I can to avoid your ongoing hostility towards me. First, let's look at some facts:

• The dragonborn does not have subraces in the first party material.
• The tiefling does not have subraces in the first party material.
• The tiefling has race variants in two separate sourcebooks, SCAG and MToF.
• The elf has subraces in the PHB and MToF.

Next, let's analyse this and what it means. The difference between the elf and the tiefling here is that one has subraces and the other has race variants. Thus races can be broken into two categories, those with subraces and those without. Races with subraces can be given more subraces and races without subraces can be given race variants. Every race to date follows this trend and while I could preach about how we should be following 5th edition philosophy and that "you are wrong" as you have said to me I am frankly not interested in such a conversation. However, that doesn't mean races without subraces can't have subraces, they just need to be implemented differently as in a race variant should be made to allow for the subraces to work without being comparatively overpowered to the original race. As this page is just that, stronger when applied on top of the dragonborn as they were designed to be their own race without subraces. A good example of what I'm talking about is available at: Tiefling,_Variant_(5e_Race_Variant), Human_Subraces_(5e_Race_Variant), Goblin_(5e_Race_Variant). —ConcealedLight (talk) 13:09, 25 March 2019 (MDT)

I’ve posted a picture of MToF on Discord referring to first party material showing information for tiefling subraces. Again, there is literally nothing that says users cannot make subraces other than you (so far). ~ BigShotFancyMan 15:16, 25 March 2019 (MDT)

I'm not sure how to explain this any simpler than I already have. —ConcealedLight (talk) 08:57, 26 March 2019 (MDT)

But you explained wrong, the tiefling does have subraces. And even you're own contribution to the dragonborn variant lists subraces. They only need to be done a way you suggest is to fit your purview of the wiki races should be (much like other examples, the mag-thingy moved to Duel Vamp Elf) It isn't CL's Race Wiki, its D&D Wiki-Home of user-generated, homebrew pages. ~ BigShotFancyMan 09:09, 26 March 2019 (MDT)

? I didn't make the 5e race variant page BSFM I just learned to use the site infrastructure. You know giving races, race ids and classes class ids. It doesn't get easier than that. I'm also unsure why everything I say needs to be "CL the Big Bad Bully of the Dan D Wiki is at it again". Could you perhaps speak out loud some of the things you're saying and bare in mind you're talking to another human being? Believe it or not, I only wish to do my duty as an administrator here and highlight the issues I've noticed on a page. That's what I'm doing so what are you? —ConcealedLight (talk) 10:02, 26 March 2019 (MDT)

I gotta hit on two things you said because this is...I can't put my finger on it but:

• "if you would check the SRD" what makes you think I haven't? Do you really believe that I do not know that dragonborn don't have subraces? How does asking the question "why can't dragonborn have subraces?" imply that I haven't seen in the PH that dragonborn don't have subraces? Can you see how that might come off as elitism? Maybe a little?
• "I just learned to use the site infrastructure. You know giving races, race ids and classes class ids" Do you think I haven't learned this? Or that I don't know how to give race IDs? I am confused why it is necessary to point out your knowledge of this. It is clear you know how it works so its baffling why it must be included unless there is an attempt at saying I need to learn this too.

I didn't say you made a 5e race variant page; you contributed to the Dragonborn, Variant (5e Race Variant). It has subraces and there's no balking over it, unlike this page. Which you have defended your position with false statements

1. The tiefling does not have subraces in the first party material
2. The tiefling has race variants in two separate sourcebooks, SCAG and MToF
3. Races with subraces can be given more subraces and races without subraces can be given race variants.
4. Every race to date follows this trend-which contradicts the statement-they just need to be implemented differently as in a race variant

I also want to add the discord comment that I think I was being trolled (?) but not sure, "we'll just call them variants". You willfully disregard the 1st party source material to articulate what the subraces are to your liking. like come on man! \o/

What I am doing is trying to understand why someone so familiar with the rules, precedent, etc is choosing to toss it aside. Like, it just seems more like a pride thing to back down on this topic of a dragonborn being allowed subraces with a subrace ID. And what I am trying to do is just so gosh darn hard when someone I know is sooo smart on this stuff has the viewpoints that I've pointed out. uhg! ~ BigShotFancyMan 21:58, 26 March 2019 (MDT)