Talk:Class Construction System (3.5e Guideline)

OGL

This was found at [1]. The document is lisenced under OGL, so I figured it would be worthwhile to put a version on here. If anyone wants to format it correctly, feel free. Aarnott 11:52, 6 March 2007 (MST)

Should I just slap Template:Wikify on this? --Green Dragon 22:54, 12 March 2007 (MDT)

Please! I don't know what to do with the tables. I'm going to finish the rest of the content soon. --Aarnott 09:49, 13 March 2007 (MDT)

Okay. --Green Dragon 10:15, 13 March 2007 (MDT)

Scalable Abilities and Multi-Stat Dependencies

One thing this system doesn't address are abilities that scale with the character's class (or sometimes character) level. It equates the ranger's animal companion to the druid's animal companion, even though the ranger's progresses at half the druid's rate. Caster level and manifester level are not in the equation either. There's not even a mention of the fact that the ranger's and paladin's caster levels are only half of their class levels. If I were to change the rangers caster level to a one-to-one ratio and its animal companion progression to that of a druid, it's rating under this system would be exactly the same.

The paladin has five abilities that scale with it's class level: smite evil (damage only, the additional uses are taken into account), lay on hands, turn undead, special mount, and caster level.

There's also no mention of multi-stat dependencies. A paladin's class features are based on Wisdom and Charisma, and is a combat oriented class, so physical stats play a role. Whereas a wizard stays out of combat and only relies on Intelligence for its class features.

All that being said, I think this system has a fairly good start to it, and has room for improvement before the point of diminishing return is reached. —Sledged (talk) 14:15, 14 June 2007 (MDT)

Alternative version 1.1

I have found what seems to be another version of the Class Construction System PDF at the 3rd Edition D&D on rumkin.com. Although it seems to be an earlier version, the above version has been taken offline and version 1.1 has a series of tables that show the cost of the SRD classes. Big Mac 02:32, 17 April 2011 (MDT)

WTF

i realize that this is OGL, so we cant change it, but some of these costs seem really dumb. why is it worth more points for one extra skill point per level than going from one good save to all good saves? the skill point cost seems really excessive, and the 1 CP per class skill seems dumb as well. by this setup, rogues would probably have more than twice the CP cost of any other non-casting class. this just seems broken. Zau 17:53, 19 October 2011 (MDT)

Agreed here - 2 skill points per level and all good saves and full BAB is cheaper CP wise than 8 skill points per level and all poor saves and half BAB. Spellcasting is also pretty ridiculous: All the modifiers pretty much mean nothing in the end - unless you choose Arcane and it's a low-SPD class. Arcane will probably net you something like 20 points, whereas Divine will give you 6ish. Mostly it's SPD.

215 cap?

The class I was doing has the following;

d8 - 20 // Light (Simple) Weapons - 10 // Light Armor - 10 // 14 Class Skills - 14 // 5 + Int Skill Points - 5(8.5) - 42.5 (43) // Medium BAB - 17 // Low Saves - 8.

That already is 122 of the 215 cap. Yes I can shave off +10 by lowering the d8 to a d6 (Which would be better suited anyway) and drop it further by lowering it to 4 + Int instead of 5 + Int. But my point is some of these values seem wildly out of place. 8.5 per individual Skill Point is excessive because a character with a high Intelligence will get so many more points "for free" anyway. A character with an Intelligence Modifier of +4 would be looking at a whopping 5 + 4(4), or 36 at 1st Level alone with an additional +9 at all Levels after that. When you are only allowed your Level + 3 Ranks in any individual Skill as it is, the most you are looking at for any Skill at 1st Level is +4. So why the value is "8.5" is beyond me, but that really should be more like 4.5. Skill Points are important, yes, but Modifiers are so much a larger part than individual Ranks.

Also later on when you are adding up your Class Features and multiplying them by x4, x2, and x1 that seems just flat out obscene. Why is it that the Class Features from 1st - 5th Level are "more important" than the ones at, say, 15th? The fact of the matter is as you level up you should become stronger, better, and deadlier. The fact that a 1st Level Class Feature is literally worth four times as much as your 20th Level Class Feature is absolutely backwards and insane.

Without going into detail, unchanged as it is, my Class Features end up totaling out to the following;

1st - 5th = 10 x 4 = 40 6th - 10th = 11 x 2 = 22 11th - 20th = 18 x 1 = 18 Total = 80.

Now granted this totals out to become 202 when added to my previous 122, giving me an additional +13 to go. In a sense I just blew apart my own argument, didn't I? Wow. Well I didn't intend for that to happen. But the point remains; Some of these values seem a tad excessive. I guess it balances out in the end after all, though.

I request this strikingly odd post to remain up as it shows the run through of the system and how it's not exactly as OP as I thought. However, that being said it needs to be noted that my Class is starting off with only Rogue stats, Light Weapons, and Light Armor. When you begin to add in more advanced weapons, stronger armor, and more keen stats then these numbers begin to blur the edges of what is "fair" and what is "normal". My Class only worked out because of the limitations I set into place early on. The whole system just feels cumbersome and clunky; As though it is formatted for Rogues or weak characters, leaving anyone else either "over powered" or "under powered" depending how you look at the math.

I feel there should be a more generalized system; A CP Limit per Class Type, not in general. Warrior, Stealth, and Magic should have different values, which compensate for different styles. Why should a Warrior who is meant to wear Heavy Armor be hit with a +52 penalty when you consider Light Armor +10, Medium Armor +15, Heavy Armor +20, and Shields +7? A Warrior is meant for flexibility, power, and to be a tank. These values should be much lower for a Warrior because he is supposed to be using them, whereas a Magic-wielder is not really meant to be using Heavy Armor, so it should be a higher value.

I don't know... I just feel as if the whole thing is a great unfinished idea, at best... (Unsigned)

--I understand how the multipliers on the class features balance out. The 4x multiplier on the first five levels is to prevent you from making a class that is overpowered off he bat without being crippled later on. As you stated, the later skills are more important, but that is why they cost less because this is where you want to insert the more powerful abilities. Your own example shows this: Putting 10 points worth of abilities in the first five levels cost over twice as much as putting 18 points worth abilities in the last 10. Valorn (talk) 16:44, 17 September 2014 (MDT)

Character Sheet

Class Sheet available for print here

This sheet was made by Nicholas Chevalier, and is free for use. Feel free to recommend changes

I placed this here unsure whether a character sheet link belonged on the main page, and it had attribution to who created. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 14:13, 10 July 2018 (MDT)