Talk:Brahmin (3.5e Class)

Balance

Well, I really like the concept of the Brahim, it's quite original and unique, but the wording at some point confuses me (or maybe the things that confuse me are supposed to be like that, in which case, they make little sense).

First of, spells:

Spells: A Brahmin casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list. However, as with Clerics, his alignment may restrict him from casting certain spells opposed to his moral or ethical beliefs (Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful spells). A Brahmin must choose and prepare his spells in advance. To prepare or cast a spell, a Brahmin must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Brahmin’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Brahmin’s Wisdom modifier. Like other spellcasters, a Brahmin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is identical to that of a Cleric of the same level. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score. A Brahmin also gets one domain spell of each spell level he can cast, starting at 1st level. When a Brahmin prepares a spell in a domain spell slot, it must come from a domain that he currently has access to (see Domain Access and Domain Spells, below).

So, the ability requirement for spell level and bonus spells is Intelligence and the DC depends on Wisdom? Isn't it needlessly complicated? It may cause some confusion during gameplay. I would rather chose either one and stick with it (Wisdom, maybe? Since he is a Divine spellcaster that prepares spells, it is sort of canon by now that his spells should depend on Wisdom). I understand maybe you made it so that the Wisdom bonus later on aren't too unbalancing. Still it's too complicated.

Spontaneous Casting: Unlike a Cleric, a Brahmin does not gain the ability to convert any number of non-domain prepared spells into "cure" or "inflict" spells. Instead, from 2nd level, he can convert any spell in a non-domain slot into any conventional (non-domain) Cleric spell of the same level or lower, but only a number of times per day equal to his Wisdom modifier (e.g twice a day for 14 Wisdom).

I would add an example in this case, to make it more clear. And it is, perhaps, a tad too powerful. Basically, you turn the guy into a quasi sorcerer but he has access to a full spell list, but less spells per day (he still has more spells than a Wizard, on average). And trying to limit this to the Wisdom modifier is hardly enough. I'll try to break it. Let's assume that, being a Wisdom based character he has a high wisdom score, let's say, 17. By 4th level, you add an extra ability point from the normal progression, taking it to 18 (+4 mod). You have now 4+1 first level spells (adding the bonus spell from high Wis, if you make the change I suggested) and 3+1 second level spells. You cast Owl's wisdom (22 wisdom, +6 mod) and now you can spontaneously cast all the remaining non domain spells of levels 1 and 2. This only gets worse as the guy gets bonuses to Wisdom from both the normal character progression and the class levels. I don't know, I think it may be too much. Specially with the mad DCs you get later on. Off the top of my head, I can think about two solutions for this: Option one, since the ability is "spontaneous" it sorta lands in the realm of Charisma, therefore you could make it so the number of times per day depends on Cha mod instead of Wis. Option two, instead of being able to swap the non domain spells, make him only be able to channel domain spells. He is swaping domains as it is anyway. This option loses some flavor, but effectively gives the guy an extra bonus spell of his choice per level.

Mystic Power: This is identical to the Cleric's ability to channel positive or negative energy to turn or rebuke undead, except that the Brahmin channels "neutral energy" that has no effect on undead

Wording issue: if it has no effect on undead, then what does it do?

Wisdom Bonus: At higher levels, the Brahmin's increasing state of enlightenment, raised awareness and mental discipline actually begins to increase his Wisdom. He gains a +1 bonus at 8th level, increasing to +2 at 14th and +3 at 20th.

I'm not entirely sure if a lower Hit die and no armor proficiency is enough for a guy that has the potential to *naturally* get up to 26 Wis - +8 mod - (30 with a mere Owl's wisdom, more with some items) and basically after lvl 5 has something akin to natural armor with his monk like abulity of mystic awareness. I mean, add Shield of faith (up to +6 to AC, and I'm assuming it's stackable, so that gets you to a grand total of AC 24) to the mix and the AC goes crazy, and so does the DC of the spells he casts, making him a virtual tank. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems that rewarding the character's wisdom, while at the same time many of his abilities depend on this ability score, may be too much sinergy to keep it balanced. Either lose the bonus or tone it down a bit.

Well, those are my two cents. I'm not a "balance" expert, but those are the issues I believe need to be addressed carefully, to make it more balanced. What do you think? Really, this class is very nice, quite original and flavorful. (Ronjun 19:34, 9 April 2007 (MDT))

I MoI'ed EldritchNumen about you rating this — he should respond with his take on this soon. --Green Dragon 21:17, 10 April 2007 (MDT)

Rating - 6/10

This Class is Playable at the moment but I would say it is to powerful, this basically appears to be a studious cleric, at the current moment I would make the followin adjustments to the class to make it better: Mystic power: Actually Channel a form of positive energy, as without any splat books this ability useless but if your DM allows splat books (Which in my experience most do) You haven't lost much at all, so just give the brahmin an actually undead turning ability, maybe they can choose how it handles undead, at 4th level they can either turn or rebuke, but still using neutral energy.

Mystical Awerness does not fit with the class as I see it, they have a half Bab meaning they are not combat focused yet they still have an ability like this which drastically increases their AC, maybe I am thinking weirdly here but I don't see this belonging here.

The Spontanous Domain doesn't seem like to much of an issue, the fact you can change more then makes up for the fact you only get one...

I don't find the spontanous casting much of an issue, only issue I might have is that at lower levels almost every spell is spontanous, so maybe cap it at wisdom score, limit 1/2 your class level per day, or something like that.

They Also have a high fort save which is weird for someone that is effectively a scholar so you may want to remove that.

One last issue I have with the class is the bonus wisdom, A Base Class should not grant people a bonus on their ability scores, and even the more focuses PrC's rarely EVER do such a thing, so such a powerful ability should not be given. Linkrulesx10 06:11, 15 April 2007 (MDT)

Rating - 8/10

So, this class seems torn as to whether to be a sorceror-cleric or a monk-cleric. One of those combinations works, the other doesn't so well... and it needs to pick one. Right now it is a monk-sorceror-cleric, which is simply too much. I'd lean towards making it a sorceror-cleric. So:

Some of the points above have merit, and I think others have argued fairly well for them. I've indicated where I disagree. This is what I would do:

1. Get rid of Mystic Awareness and the Wis increases. They do not fit into the idea of this class well.
2. Drop the fortitude save (since we aren't pretending that it is a fighting character any more).
3. Rewrite the domain ability. He can change domains a number of times per week equal to his brahmin level (maximum 7). He gets this ability at 1st level. He only gains domain spells from the domain, not the domain ability.
4. Leave Channeling at 4th level. He channels at level - 3 whenever appropriate. This ability is important because it qualifies the class to use certain feats and take certain PrCs that require the ability to channel. It needs to be included. It might also be interesting to allow the Brahmin to rebuke/destroy outsiders, since in Hindu mythology this is a common feat for priests. However, even if this isn't included, the ability still should be, since it allows the Brahmin to count as a cleric for multiclassing (much of the time).
5. Additional ability: Greater Domain Access. The Brahmin also gains the domain ability for the selected domain. He gains this ability at 10th level (maybe 12th?).
6. Make wisdom the primary attribute across the board. "Enlightenment" is not a mental process such as Int governs; it should be governed by Wis. Wisdom is about understanding, both of yourself and the world. This is enlightenment. Int is more based around logic, critical thinking, problem solving, etc.
7. Spontaneous casting - make number of uses per day equal to 1 plus 1/2 class level (round up), so the ability scales over the range of the class. The wisdom bonus isn't necessary in scaling this since the class already gets a boost from high wisdom (eg bonus spells).

Those are just some quick ideas (I was also thinking of adding in a high level ability to have two domains at once, as a cleric, but eventually scrapped it for balance purposes). What do you all think? –EldritchNumen 16:46, 17 April 2007 (MDT)

Some good ideas here. I accept the case against Mystic Awareness and the Wisdom bonuses, and also the Fort save to a somewhat lesser extent (I was inclined to keep that because of the mind-over-body disciplines of Yogis and suchlike, but those are not really central to the Brahmin concept, and dropping the Fort save makes Brahmins less Cleric-like). I also like the idea of making Mystic Power more useful "out of the box" by making it effective against Outsiders, so that at least the Brahmin can do something useful with it without extra feats. I will make those changes immediately. As for the rest... I'll give them some thought. The dual casting attributes (Int/Wis) are becoming more common (e.g. Wis/Cha and Cha/Wis for the Favored Soul and Spirit Shaman), and I was imagining the Brahmin as a sort of "theologian" rather than a "priest": given a polytheistic setup, he's an intellectual who doesn't commit to worshipping any specific deity, but "studies the nature of the divine". Changing the spontaneous casting to domain-only rather than non-domain only is an interesting idea, reduces the number of spell slots it can be used on, and probably makes more sense conceptually (as they can swap domains in any case): keeping it keyed to Wisdom means they'd need 28 Wisdom to affect all 9 domain slots at high level (reachable with the help of an item boost, but still a bit of a struggle if Intelligence remains their prime casting attribute). I'll put that in too. --Findail 09:25, 20 April 2007 (MDT)

I like what you've done; the class has nice flavor and is pretty balanced. I'll give it an 8 of 10 for balance. –EldritchNumen 20:53, 3 May 2007 (MDT)

This rating has been nullified with the implementation of the new Rating System. --Green Dragon 14:41, 20 February 2008 (MST)

using official material

Probably this class was written before the book came out, but the PHB II now has official rules on a spontaneous domain casting variant. See Spontaneous Domain Casting, PHB II, Page 37. The Brahmin can just use this variant. In the SRD, we have the Cloistered Cleric, which has d6 HD, low BAB, 6 skill points per level, bonus Knowledge Domain, and Bardic Lore. Using these variants, we basicly have the Brahmin. Well, actually we have a Cleric variant based on published WotC material that is more powerful than the Brahmin. Mhh. That makes this class kind of superfluous.

What I'm missing here is actual rules for the Hindu gods. A list of deity names and domains would be a good start. --Mkill 04:04, 14 June 2007 (MDT)

Rating - 6/10

I give the Brahmin a 6/10 because as a basic class it has a good base, much like the cleric or even the Archavist including spells, and modifier dependence. However, the reduction in the score stems from the granting of an epic feat (Planar Turning) at a low level. Planar turning is an epic feat that requires WIS 25+, and CHA 25+ and should not be granted to non-epic characters who do not meet those specific criteria or else a game could quickly become unbalanced. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MrD1814 (talk • contribs) 10:31, 31 October 2007. Please sign your posts.

This rating has been nullified with the implementation of the new Rating System. --Green Dragon 14:41, 20 February 2008 (MST)