Talk:Battlemage, Variant (5e Class)

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Featured article candidate .png This article is a current featured article nominee as of 22:29, 14 February 2020 (MST). Featured articles exemplify D&D Wiki's very best work, and therefore must meet the featured article criteria. Please become engaged in this process and support, oppose, and leave comments as to this page's featured article nomination (engage!).

Hello, all. This is a class of mine that I've been working on for some time now. This is in no way related to the already existing Battlemage class. This has been a project of my own for almost two years now. All of my inspiration has been drawn from other games, other classes in the 5e PHB, etc. This class has been my own work. I changed the name to "Battlemage" because Spellknight never sat with me.
A note to the Player - Hello, user of the D&D Wiki. Thank you for taking a look at this class. A lot of work has gone into it & I appreciate your consideration in using the Battlemage. Included below is the full class, 5 subclasses, and over 20 unique spells made specifically for the class. I tried my best to use similar language to the Player's handbook in order to make this class's features as clear as possible, but there is still some inconsistency there. If I took something out that you really liked or changed something in a way that wasn't favorable, feel free to leave a comment in the discussion tab. My username is Rushfire, and here's my rendition of a Hybrid Arcane caster/ Fighter class.

Amazing.[edit]

This class is truly amazing, and I'm wondering if it could maybe work in the future with the Archmage Class that I'm currently fixing and improving (might be OP, but that's the specialty with prestige classes above level 20, aren't they?). As a side note, your spells are amazing and it would be cool if you could put them in the Wiki itself for others to use. I mean, they are fucking amazing, original and maybe a bit too strong, but they are cool nonetheless. -Warning issued on 2/18/2020 for profanity.-

Response[edit]

Wow.. The Archmagus class looks really really cool. I gave it a look over & definitely OP.. but that's the magic (no pun intended) of beyond Level 20. I've revisited some of the stronger spells & gave them some reworks. Notably Absorb Energy & the removal of Titan's Stature until it can reach a point of fair balance, and the modification of Flurry. I may also need to go back because I noticed that few spells have Verbal components in them & I may want to revisit that so they can be more easily countered.

If there are any spells in particular that stand out as overly strong, feel free to let me know! I tried to use the Creating Spells section of the Dungeon Master's guide as a ballpark for setting spell level.. but quantifying non-damaging spells is difficult since it's not as easy as putting the numbers where they belong. Any Feedback is appreciated!

Rushfire (talk) 12:56, 18 February 2020 (MST)

Pretty Good[edit]

My DM and I have play tested this a few times at varying levels and we're both fairly pleased with the results. My only qualm with this so far is the ability to add more dice to forceful strike with mana points was removed. It's slightly hinders the burst damage playstyle for the character I was building, but all-in all a generally good class and easy to build lore around. If I may ask, is it possible to post the chart or PM it for the limit of mana points per certain level?

Response[edit]

The only qualm I have with introducing that much potenial for mana points is that it gives a lot of value to something that's meant to be a minor add-on to the class.. This is why I threw in the Arcane Empowerment to give spellcasting (specifically self-buff concentration spells) a little more reward for their usage.

While I don't have the original copy of the Improved Arcana, something that would be compatible with the class in its current state would be the following, and give it a whirl as a replacement for the Arcane Empowerment:

Improved Arcana[edit]

Starting at 5th level, you're able to send unbelievably intense bursts of energy into your foes as your mastery over the weave intensifies. When you use your Forceful Strike feature, you can spend an additional mana point to have that attack deal an additional 1d6 force damage to the targeted creature. The additional damage of this feature increases to 2d6 at 10th level, 3d6 at 15th level, and to 4d6 at 20th level.

You can play around with this rule & see how it fits with your build. The reason why mana points used to be so expendable before was because they were regainable on a short rest.. but then it didn't sit well with me that the class had a short rest resource in parallel with its spellcasting... kinda like giving a monk half-casting along with its ki points. But now that they're a long rest resource, I try to prioritize value.. but not too much value.

Also, if you wanna throw caution to the wind & just go all out burst damage.. allow another point to be spent at 9th, 13th, and 17th level, and each point that is spent deals the extra damage detailed above.. This is not a balanced suggestion, and I would expect to find something like that on the april fool's list.. but a fun one if you're looking for unlimited burst damage


Rushfire (talk) 20:32, 14 February 2020 (MST)

Thank you!![edit]

Aww! Thank you guys! I'm glad that you support the class! I'll take a new look at the spells because I have been changing the numbers & may have to revisit some damage values. But the spells now have individual pages, which can be visited by clicking on the name of the spell.

Also, I hope you like the response to solving the problem with your burst-damage build.

Again.. thank you both so much for the feedback!! It's greatly appreciated

Rushfire (talk) 20:32, 14 February 2020 (MST)

Featured Article Nomination[edit]

Hello! I'd like to nominate this article for being a quality article as it's been a project of mine for some time now.. Included in the article is the class, 5 subclasses, a half caster spell list, and over 20 new spells. This has been a martial-arcane caster hybrid class that I've been working on since the summer of 2018. I've put a lot of work into this class, and have made sure that essentially every inch of the class is polished, well written, and usable through almost a year of playtesting by not only myself, but of other curious players. I do hope that this nomination goes far & that you all like my rendition of an arcane caster-fighter hybrid class! Rushfire (talk) 20:32, 14 February 2020 (MST)

  • Oppose per Featured Article Criteria 3, a featured article must have "...images and other media where they are appropriate to the subject, with succinct captions and acceptable copyright status. Externally hosted images need to be sourced, with adequate attribution to their authors. The images should be relevant and high quality thumbnails sized 300px, 600px, or 750px for very short horizontal images." As of this moment, this page does not meet that criteria. Additionally, per requirement 4, a featured article must have links to the relevant SRD or homebrew pages where rules are referenced. Whenever you are invoking an ability score such as a character's Intelligence modifier, you must also link to the Intelligence page, like so. Additionally, none of the spells mentioned on this page link back to their pages of reference, which is unacceptable for a featured article. Just from a cursory glance, I can tell this page needs a lot of work to match up to our standards. On those grounds I am opposing the nomination of this page. The world needs bullies. Remember to thank a bully today! (talk) 14:23, 17 February 2020 (MST)

Noted. Will do. Rushfire (talk) 20:32, 14 February 2020 (MST)

I am willing to reconsider once you have made those changes. Don't be afraid to ask for help! The world needs bullies. Remember to thank a bully today! (talk) 14:30, 17 February 2020 (MST)

That makes sense. I've just done some cursory searching for fittable images, and since you left the "Intelligence" stub in your message, I can just take that & extrapolate that to any other ability scores that are referenced in the article.

As for making the Spells link to their spell pages, I still need to make spell pages for each of the spells.. The only problem is that I don't know how to make a spell link to a homebrew class. I tried to start making pages for each of the spells, but haven't done so yet. Here's the unfinished link to Absorb Energy, the first spell on the list. If I could just get a properly working link for one of the spells, I can easily rinse & repeat for the rest of them.

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Absorb_Energy_(5e_Spell)

Rushfire (talk) 20:32, 14 February 2020 (MST)

You can link to homebrew spell pages by putting the title of the page you want to link to in two square brackets, like this: [[Absorb Energy (5e Spell)|''absorb energy'']], which gives you a link that looks like this: absorb energy. I also created a category for 3rd-level battlemage spells, and I linked to the spell from this page, for demonstration purposes. Does that give you a better idea of what I want to see? The world needs bullies. Remember to thank a bully today! (talk) 14:56, 17 February 2020 (MST)

That is exactly what I needed. Thank you so much!!! I'm really excited to get this page fully fleshed out & articulated with the links. Now I can just rinse & repeat. Greatly appreciate the step forward. I understand what you need going forward, which is making sure everything is linked up & easily accessible, which makes sense. Rushfire (talk) 21:08, 17 February 2020 (MST)

I do have one more question about materials from sourcebooks that don't have a SRD page here. Should I leave those links blank, such as links to elemental weapon"? Because I'd think that Wizards of the Coast have reason to not upload certain materials from their sourcebooks. Just this last question then I think I'll be all set

I'm glad you asked! For non-SRD material, we have pages on our wiki for reference of copyright status and page number (if applicable), which you can link to the same way you link to a homebrew spell. For example, that spell you just mentioned, elemental weapon? You can use the following URL to link to the reference page: [[Elemental Weapon (5e Spell)|''elemental weapon'']]! The world needs bullies. Remember to thank a bully today! (talk) 15:51, 17 February 2020 (MST)

How does it look now? Rushfire (talk) 11:57, 18 February 2020 (MST)

  • Support In light of the above discussion and the recent changes that have been made to this page, I feel like its presentation has improved to the point that it can stand as a featured article. I gladly support this nomination! The world needs bullies. Remember to thank a bully today! (talk) 10:35, 18 February 2020 (MST)

Thank you for your help on bringing my page to where it is @The world needs bullies. Remember to thank a bully today. Very helpful! I also thank you for your support! Who else needs to see & approve of the page in order to get the article checked out for being a "Featured Article"? Rushfire (talk) 12:46, 18 February 2020 (MST)

Any user can review and support a featured article. The only requirement is that is has to reach a clear consensus within 6 months of its nomination. The world needs bullies. Remember to thank a bully today! (talk) 10:51, 18 February 2020 (MST)

The creator has asked me to give this page a review.

Oppose - My main reason for opposing this nomination is that it is significantly better than the Eldritch Knight and cherry-picks several core features from other classes namely: Hexblade's Hex Warrior, Paladin's Divine Smite, Sorcerer's Metamagic, etc. Pairing that with the d10 Hit Die and the benefits of its subclasses this class is arguably better than any other first-party gish such as a Swords Bard, Bladelock, and even the Paladin. All in all the class feel more like a bunch of bells and whistles strapped onto a sorcerer/warlock to make it a better frontline caster than any available first-party content. Without several features being reworked to address these issues and more originality being taken with the overall design/ class features I don't see my vote changing. I'd also recommend reading the DnD_Guidelines sections on classes if you haven't already.
On a more minor but never the less important note, there are also a few capitalization and wording errors I noticed. See Help:When to Italicize and Capitalize.
Good Luck. —ConcealedLightChatmod.png (talk) 20:28, 18 February 2020 (MST)
Thank you, Concealed Light. I feel like that this review was necessary because, in the playtesting I've had in my games, I haven't had much issue with power. In fact, the class recently went through some power increases shortly prior to its nomination to be able to compete with Paladins, Bladelocks, and Swords Bards in my games.. But I do see now that the changes pushed it too far on the strong side, thanks to your review. I do also agree that this class needs more emphasis on lore & backstory, as that's something I haven't worked on for a while. I do have some ideas on what to change about this class to reign its power back, notably the Forceful Strike feature & instead of dealing extra damage, make it such that a player can overcome damage resistance to nonmagical b/p/s damage with that feature. Just some ideas I'm having, but my intention for this class isn't to make something blatantly strong. Yes I want it to be good... but not overly powerful for no reason. Rushfire (talk) 09:52, 19 February 2020 (MST)
So I went through the class & gutted many of the "Fluff" features that I felt pushed it over the top, namely the ones that I added shortly before the nomination of Featured Article (One with the Weave, Potent Surge features, among other things). I also halved the mana point progression because I feel like if that's going to play a role in its design, it probably needed to be less potent than it was, due to the coexisting half-casting of the class. Paralleled with the removal of how Forceful Strike worked previously, I think that the trouble areas mentioned have been properly addressed. My main focus of this round of changes was to aim at dropping the power level of the class to an acceptable level. Once the functionality is at an acceptable place, I can go back in there, fix up my wording, and then take the proper steps towards having a unique, balanced, fun to play & easy to read class. --Rushfire (talk) 14:44, 19 February 2020 (MST)Rushfire
I am not sure that it is significantly better than eldritch knight because 1st level is a AC re-calc, 2nd level only gives spellcasting a level early, all 3rd level subclass features seem on par of fair, 4 & 5 standard, 7th level expend mana point for a 1st level spell (SEVENTH LEVEL!) a feature that has two requirements to be met to concentrate for free if a third criteria met. 8th level reminds me of borrowed fair material, 11th is eldritch knight type thing, maybe better...maybe? etc etc...
Subclasses haven't looked to terribly strong either. I agree, as you see below, it feels very borrowed. Red Leg Leo (talk) 09:29, 21 February 2020 (MST)
  • Comment. I don't want to rain on the parade because there's a lot of pride and two years of work here. I share some feelings with ConcealedLight; shared features. I walk through the base class feeling underwhelmed. A different way to calc armor class at level one, fighting style and spellcasting although I do like arcane warrior option, and extra attack. Then there are some things I think are new, benefits that are dependent on concentration or arcane surge. I can't use these features unless I am surging. I do like features that tie with other class flavor but I don't like dead features. then we go back to what I don't think is new, half pro bonus to saving throws, an eldritch knight type way to cast spells as bonus actions, later the orc/barbarian undying benefit and lastly the monk/sorcerer/psion feature of getting resource points back.
Subclasses are better I think? I'll comment them another time. Red Leg Leo (talk) 09:29, 21 February 2020 (MST)
  • Response: To be fair, when ConcealedLight had reviewed this class, the mana point progression was equal to level, Arcane Empowerment granted not only an AC bonus, but a bonus to attack and damage rolls, and even a bonus to saving throws.. Not to mention, Arcane Surge allowed for the use of Intelligence as a weapon stat. So the class's combined features were significantly stronger than they currently are. I'll definitely go back through the class, as I think I went a little too hard on the nerfs. But one thing is for sure: I know I don't want to introduce Intelligence as a stat for weapon attacks. I do very much appreciate your feedback @ Red Leg Leo. Right now is a transition point in the Battlemage's balance.

I went through and reworked the lackluster class features. Primarily replacing the "copy" features such as the undying feature at 18th level & replacing it with Arcane Rebuke, and then reworking the class's 11th level feature to something that would be powerful & fitting for the class. Coupled with a rework of Forceful Strikes, I think that this class is at a better place now than it was a week ago, and believe that it is ready for another review of balance. --Rushfire (talk) 20:00, 22 February 2020 (MST)

Recent Changes in response to Reviews[edit]

In the most recent set of changes to this class, I aimed to primarily target what was being talked about, notably the "copied" features that this class had in comparison to other classes. Most notably:

Forceful Strike, similar to Divine Smite. I removed this feature and replaced it with Arcane Weapon (1st level). This allows the player to grant themselves a limited & seamless use of the spell magic weapon for the cost of 1 mana point. I figured this low cost of a non-concentration 2nd level spell would be justified by its severely lowered duration from 1 hour to 1 minute maximum.

Mana: While this feature wasn't directly discussed as an issue, I did find that the amount of mana points previously given was very high. Considering the utility that it provided with Tenacious Concentration, Arcane Retaliation, Arcane Sense, and other subclass features, a full level progression was really intense, so I halved the point progression & this feels significantly better. It plays well in parallel to half-casting, and really makes anything that spends mana points feel extra valuable.

Mana Recovery: This feature was also problematic, as it was comparable to Sorcerer's flexible casting. Since the mana point progression was cut in half, it didn't feel desirable for players to even have the option of turning mana points into spell slots and vice versa. To make the class easier to play, this mechanic was removed that way there's one less thing for a player to think about when playing this class.

Arcane Surge (1st level), Similar to the Hexblade's Hex Warrior. I took out the ability to use any item as a spellcasting focus & the ability to use Intelligence as the "End-All" ability score. This change, in my mind, was definitely a good call as having one ability score determine so much, even if situational, was very powerful & didn't feel right.

I also changed the Arcane Surge from having two uses between short or long rests to having a number of uses equal to your Intelligence modifier between long rests.

Magic Resilience: Half Prof on saving throws against magic (8th level). I removed this feature entirely. It was such a minor feature that I didn't mind removing it, especially if its presence was causing issues of originality.

Casting Surge (11th level), similar to Sorcerer's Metamagic. I completely removed this feature. Considering the power level of spells that this class gets as an action (Such as flurry, greater returning weapon, and slice) I immediately thought this feature was strong. So having a reason to replace it with what is now Superior Surge feels better. Superior Surge allows for the class to turn away from using mana points on Arcane Weapon, and more on using those points for things such as Tenacious Concentration, Arcane Sense, and subclass features.

Potent Surge (18th level), Similar to Undying feature given to Half-Orcs and Barbarians. Yeah, as soon as that comparison was made, I knew that feature didn't fit with the class. So I replaced it with Arcane Retaliation. I'm aware that this feature is also similar to the spell hellish rebuke. This feature went through some tweaking, but it's now at a place where I feel comfortable.

Esoteric Manifestation (20th level): Similar to Monk/Sorcerer regain of resource points. Ironically, I initially changed this ability into something that regains resource points back like the listed classes. I then changed it to a feature where your arcane surge is always active... until you are dropped to 0 hit points or killed outright. I felt that this feature was a solid 20th level feature. It meant that a player's bonus action was freed up to either take a Surge Master bonus action, or cast a spell as a bonus action. The feature might be on the weak side in my opinion, and will probably be changed, but this is what I have for now.

I hope these changes are to your liking. After playtesting them yesterday (2/28/2020), they definitely felt better.

--Rushfire (talk) 09:33, 29 February 2020 (MST)


Response To Changes[edit]


So things definitely are looking better. I am just going to use bullets for simplicity and hope you don't mind.

  1. Level 5 is very strong. Extra attack, 2nd level spells, and arcane empowerment. I encourage removing empowerment and copying ranger/paladin. (this is an instance it is okay, balance stuffz). You could then use that feature somewhere else. Note, artificer has similar feature at level 20 (+1 for each item attunement) Maybe put this on 6th level and only be AC or saving throws, give the option.
  2. I could see a little more damage for 18th level feature (8d8???)
  3. I think level 20 is perfect. she is real nice.

Subclasses

  1. Protection is confusing. Help people like me understand.
  2. healing touch needs level annotation. 1 point for 1st level spell but if you allow to scale, don't make it point per spell level.
  3. I might allow spiritual sense to be free. 10th level for permanent level 1 thing. see what others say.
  4. Devout doesn't feel very related to arcane surge thing like other the defender does. not a bad subclass, but I don't feel same flavor being shared.
  5. Elemental Affinity, I would make it change long rest then short rest (when applicable) day counting is kind of moot in D&D unless you are really play admin heavy game. Also, I might personally scale back to 4-5 choices. Again, see what others think.
  6. Level 10 elements is weak imo. A language? Lets revisit stuff you took out and see if we can reimplement it.
  7. For Affinity for the Fallen, what reaping strike? Also seems a tag weak; speak with dead and regain a feature use. another one we revisit.
  8. Forme Macabre in a nutshell is fast healing and condition immunities. Potential is here and I feel we can boost this a little.
  9. Deadly Strikes is weird. extra damage for being attacked not damaged, and extra damage for failing a save throw. Potentially 2d6 yeah? or always 2d6?

Again, much improvement. And with a few touch ups the class should be pretty good. Red Leg Leo (talk) 10:18, 16 March 2020 (MDT)

Thank you very much for the review! I know that this class was definitely a lot to look at and I really appreciate the review. I'll make the necessary changes & will look forward to the next round of reviews! --Rushfire (talk) 09:02, 21 March 2020 (MDT)
Main Class Response[edit]
(5th Level) I just had this thought a few days ago. I'll throw that feature into 6th level. --Rushfire (talk) 09:02, 21 March 2020 (MDT))
(Arcane Retaliation) The only trepidation I have with more damage is that it's a save for half feature. If I up the damage, I'll certainly have to up the cost. We'll see what other people say about it. --Rushfire (talk) 09:02, 21 March 2020 (MDT))
(20th Level) Thank you!! --Rushfire (talk) 09:02, 21 March 2020 (MDT))
Subclass Responses[edit]
(Protection) Essentially what I ended up doing was limiting the use of the protection feature down to the spells that the subclass learns as reactions: Shield, Absorb Kinetics, and Absorb Energy. --Rushfire (talk) 09:02, 21 March 2020 (MDT))
(Healing Touch) Will add that immediately. --Rushfire (talk) 09:02, 21 March 2020 (MDT))
(Spiritual Sense) Interesting, but will keep in mind. --Rushfire (talk) 09:02, 21 March 2020 (MDT))
(Devout) I agree. I think I need to elaborate more on how the subclass blends the arcane with the divine, and uses their knowledge of magic to evoke healing and other divine magic. --Rushfire (talk) 09:02, 21 March 2020 (MDT))
(Level 10 Elements) This feature was intentionally weak because under Weapon of the Elements, at level 10, the user can use Mana points to smite with their elemental affinity. --Rushfire (talk) 09:02, 21 March 2020 (MDT))
(Affinity for the Fallen) Reaping Strike = Siphoning Strike. I fixed the wording.
(Forme Macabre) Good to Know. --Rushfire (talk) 09:02, 21 March 2020 (MDT))
(Deadly Strikes) Agreed. I'll readjust to make it a little more straightforward. --Rushfire (talk) 09:02, 21 March 2020 (MDT))

Image copyright[edit]

Unless you asked for permission from the artist of the image that is currently being used on this page, it does not follow copyright standards. You should either contact the artist for permission to use the image or find an image with an open license. --PJammaz (talk) 15:35, 13 March 2020 (MDT)

How do I certify that permission is granted to use the image? (Edit): I just emailed the artist & he said that I'm in the clear to use the image. How can I confirm that permission is granted? --Rushfire (talk) 16:10, 13 March 2020 (MDT)
I would just indicate somewhere on the page that the permission was granted, this way we know in the future that the image doesn't violate copyright --PJammaz (talk) 16:27, 13 March 2020 (MDT)
Got it. Thank you! --Rushfire (talk) 16:34, 13 March 2020 (MDT)

Recent Changes[edit]

So this class has undergone some relatively minor, but fairly important changes recently & is nearing a point of completion. Most of the changes of late have been towards reducing the number of class resources that the player must keep track of when playing this class. I wanted to narrow it down to Mana Points, and Spell slots. Everything the class does either costs mana points or spell slots because I feel that having two resources, just from this one class, is *plenty* to keep track of.

Secondly, I've began labeling recent changes in the changelog for this class, so that it's more identifiable what changes have been made & when.

--Rushfire (talk) 08:45, 28 April 2020 (MDT)

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