Talk:4e Classes, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies

All 4e Base Classes

Whats wrong with the "all 4e base classes"? It keeps coming up with an error. Can somebody sort it please? --Sam Kay 09:10, 20 January 2008 (MST)

Someone must have made the dpl incorrect or somesuch... The problem is that the page is too large for it to load correctly. I will have Blue Dragon take a look. --Green Dragon 10:18, 28 January 2008 (MST)

Organization

Shouldn't it be Class-Paragon Path-Epic Destiny-NPC instead of duplicating 3e? Regards--Pwsnafu 18:29, 6 February 2008 (MST)

Yes. Incidentally, are epic destinies just a followon from paragon paths or a seperate thing entirely? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sam Kay (talk • contribs) 06:54, 15 February 2008 (MST). Please sign your posts.

My understanding is that you choose a Paragon Path at level 11 and an Epic Destiny at level 21. If you look at the Christmas present (the Elf racial entry) the racial feat has a requirement "Heroic Tier", so it doesn't work in Paragon or Epic. I think this to prevent the "epic is too complicated" criticism of 3E. So my understanding is that they are separate things. What we don't know is whether you can multiclass a Paragon Path. Regards --Pwsnafu 17:58, 16 February 2008 (MST)

Only one of each. One exception is that you give up a paragon path to extend your heroic tier multiclassing, but that's the only exception right now. —Sledged (talk) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)

After-note: NPC classes no longer exist. —Sledged (talk) 19:29, 9 June 2008 (MDT)

Questions

i dont get some things:

1. wizard. daily spells: u r supposed to begin knowing two daily spells and each time u gain a level that lets u select a daily spell, u choose two daily spells to add to spellbook. fine. now, what happens when u get to replace a daily power? do u learn two new powers from the new level or do u replace any two daily powers u had with two daily powers of ur current level? or something else entirely?
2. related to 1, what happens when u get ur paragon daily spell at level 20? do u just add it to spellbook or is it known internally like encounter powers? and if u add it to spellbook, do u add another power or ur level or lower as per choosing two daily spells when u learn get to choose new daily spell?
3. this is more of a bitch about the classes in general: why would paragon tier FORCE me to choose an 11th level encounter power i will be stuck with throughout my entire career as one of my (at most) 4 encounter powers? these are the powers i use most of all. each encounter (usually) starts witht he firing off of encounter powers and i get stuck at level 20+ with a sucky paragon 11th level encounter power which i can never replace and must use.
4. the paragon path warmage has the lovely daily power "closing spell" which does 3d10 +int mod damage and an additional 5d10 damage if this is the last daily power of the day. very nice and useful. now, the archmage epic path lets u choose 1 daily power to use as an encounter spell at level 30. a few questions arise: 1. what happens if i choose "closing spell" as this power? under what conditions would i get the additional 5d10 damage? 2. would this daily spell take up one of my encounter power slots of daily spells slots, meaning, say i chose daily power X to be an encounter spell (remember, i am level 30). do i get to use power X every encounter but in addition i can use only 3 other daily powers and 4 other encounter powers or can i use 4 daily powers, power X every encounter and another 3 encounter powers? how would that work? plus, if an archmage chooses to be able to cast "closing spell" twice daily, and it is the last daily spell he has left, does he gain the additional 5d10 for both castings or just the second one?
5. when u attack with an area spell which requires u make an attack, do u make one attack roll which is compared to the relevant defenses of those in the area or do u make an attack roll for each creature in the area?

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by No problem (talk • contribs) 04:00, 21 August 2008 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

Well, for starters, this isn't a forum, proper spelling is requested, as it's not too hard. Also, sign your posts.

1. You would take two new spells if you wanted to. If not, pick one, replace, and then you're good. If not pick two, replace two. Simple.
2. As you can't get any other daily spells from the Paragon tier, you only gain that single spell. There are no level 20 spells.
3. The book, if you would read it before posting, italicizes to make it more apparent, "All the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come in addition to your class powers and features, not instead of them."
4. You answered your own question. It's no longer a daily power if you take it as an Archmage, thus you can never gain the +5d10.
5. Again, read the book. You make an attack roll for each creature in the area, and one damage roll.

--Taritus 08:02, 21 August 2008 (MDT)

1. that clarifies it.
2. i thought perhaps that level or lower, as is customary when choosing new daily spells. lower in this instance since, as u said, there are no 20th level daily spells.
3. i know that it is supposed to come in addition but! in addition to what?! what is the number supposed to be without it? when going over the character advancement table, i noticed that at level 11, u gain, and i quote "paragon path features; gain 1 paragon path encounter attack power; gain 1 feat". there is no mention of gaining a "regular" encounter power whereas in the column of total powers known, u seem to gain an encounter power and since every time one of the numbers for encounter, daily or utility powers go up u also get a corresponding mention in the powers and features column ("gain one encounter attack power" for example) i had assumed i was fuzzy on something. by the way, the same thing applies to the 12th level utility power. the number for utility power goes up one, the powers and features column states u gain one paragon path utility power and there is NO mention of a gained "regular" utility power. same for level 20 when u gain a paragon daily attack spell. i gather from ur comments that, well, 1 encounter, daily and utility powers of the 4/4/7 i have at level 30, come from paragon path and another utility comes from epic destiny. as i said, this part is me bitching about it. seems i would rather have my own choice of powers and not get stuck at level 27 with an 11th level encounter attack power that i cant replace or retrain.
4. ok.
5. i was, indeed, to lazy to look for that part in the entire book. thanks.

now that i read the character advancement table again and more closely, there is nothing to prevent me from replacing an encounter or daily power when the table says i can replace said power. one cannot retrain paragon path powers but i did not find anything that prohibits replacing them. do u know of any such thing? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Taritus (talk • contribs) 08:03, 21 August 2008 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

well, how about this: a 30th level archmage chooses "shape magic" to be his daily spell to be made an encounter spell (archspell feature). this means the archmage can recharge ALL his powers after an encounter and, had he been a warmage in paragon path, can use "closing spell" twice as his last daily spell per encounter thus making him a literal killing machine. i am still trying to choose the daily spell that can be used twice daily for the archmage. suggestions? well, that choice can be made daily so is very flexible. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by No problem (talk • contribs) 09:22, 21 August 2008 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

Your formatting makes this very difficult to read... Oh well. Again, paragon powers are gained in addition to normal powers. Never when you gain a paragon power is there an asterisk marking that you must replace a power. You replace an encounter power at level 10, keeping you at 3, and gain an extra at level 11, increasing it to 4. If as an archmage you take a Daily power as an Encounter power, it is an encounter power, and thus any effects mentioning a daily power to not apply to it. Encounter power effects, however do. --Taritus 09:28, 21 August 2008 (MDT)

thought as much. what say u about the archmage loophole? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by No problem (talk • contribs) 10:17, 21 August 2008 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

It doesn't exist. Epic Destiny powers lack power sources, and Shape Magic says one arcane power. Arcane referring to the power source. Plus, encounter powers may only be used during encounters, and only once during each encounter, so no getting all your powers back. Though if you're talking about only regaining Closing Spell, and using it twice to get the +5d10 bonus you must have used all your real Daily powers, even though Closing Spell isn't a Daily power anymore. Throw out all your Dailies at the beginning of the session, then lay waste with Closing Spell. Yeah, that works. --Taritus 10:30, 21 August 2008 (MDT)

i meant making "shape magic" my encounter spell. "archspell" seems to allow it since it is a daily spell. and u can, according to my understanding, use encounter spells outside of encounters (encounter spell is a term refering to a power which can be recherged after a 5 minute rest. it is not, as i c it, a term refering to when u can use it). u just need to rest 5 minutes after using it but given that u have at most 4 daily spells plus 7 utility daily spells u will just need 11 times 5 minutes recharging all your daily powers. an hour say. not a short time but definitely useable.

then, using this power during an actual encounter, after having spent all your daily spells except for "closing spell", u can use "closing spell" once as a killer and then regain it using "shape magic" as an encounter spell and use it again as a killer. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by No problem (talk • contribs) 11:13, 21 August 2008 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

Again, it helps to read. Quoth PHB: Encounter Powers An encounter power can be used once per encounter. You need to take a short rest (page 263) before you can use one again. Encounter powers produce more powerful, more dramatic effects than at-will powers. If you’re a martial character, they are exploits you’ve practiced extensively but can pull off only once in a while. If you’re an arcane or divine character, these are spells or prayers of such power that they take time to re-form in your mind after you unleash their magic energy. --Taritus 11:30, 21 August 2008 (MDT)

You can't make shape magic your encounter spell, because only daily spells qualify. Shape magic is not a spell because it doesn't have the "arcane" keyword. —Sledged (talk) 11:32, 21 August 2008 (MDT)

Oh, didn't catch that. --Taritus 11:38, 21 August 2008 (MDT)

encounter spells arent used only in encounters. that is a ridiculous notion. else i would keep grasshoppers in my backpack, pull one out each time i would wish to use an encounter power and have an "encounter" recognized with the grasshopper as enemy and blast the grasshopper (where, of course, i put grasshopper where i would like to blast). clearly this is ridiculous. or maybe just tell the DM "i suspect there are enemies there and i use an ancounter power". in general, encounter powers are used in what is properly called "encounters" meaning with enemies and such. but at the essence, "encounter" isnt well defined and as i c it, an encounter power can be used whenever, but requires 5 minutes of rest afterwards to regain it (and other encounter powers).

perhaps i should remind you that daily spells arent "daily". you can, in fact, cast more than one daily spell in some day (though not every day). recall that daily spells are regained after an extended rest which means that u can regain ur daily spells every 18 hours. 16 if u r eladrin. in short, spells are clasified, in my proudful humble opinion, according to the shortest time u can regain them: for at will powers it is practically no time at all, for encounter powers it is 5 minutes and for daily spells it is 18 hours.

also, reading "closing spell" more closely, it states that if u dont have any OTHER daily spells, u get an additional 5d10 of damage. so if u indeed choose it twice per day as an archmage feature, u would indeed be able to use it twice and with the additional 5d10 of damage on both times. i do apologize for format if i am indeed not using it properly as u suggested earlier.

or not LOL i dont know anymore....(that is meant for the "closing spell" remark. not the encounter power debate). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by No problem (talk • contribs) 12:55, 21 August 2008 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

Closing spell + spell recall is questionable whether the first use of the spell deals the extra 5d10 damage. The closing spell + archspell combo, however, looks a bit more valid. Given that it can't be pulled off until 30th level, I'd allow it, and it looks to be a worth while selection especially when you compare it to meteor swarm. Note that meteor swarm affects all creatures, where closing spell only affects enemies. I suggest putting them both in 4e Optimized Character Builds. —Sledged (talk) 13:18, 21 August 2008 (MDT)

←Reverted indentation to one colon

no. u cant use "shape magic" after using "closing spell" with the additional 5d10 damage since "closing spell" requires u have no other daily powers. it does not say "no other daily arcane powers". "shape magic" is a daily power. hence it cannot be available. however, u can use the epic feat "arcane mastery" for that purpose. better than "shape magic" even, u can regain "closing spell" a number of times a day equal to your actions points meaning at least once a day and likely more than that. "arcane mastery" allows u to substitute one action point per encounter to regain one daily spell. nice. as for archspell, i would choose "legion's hold" over "meteor swarm" or "closing spell" cause, while it does less damage, the area of damage is astounding, it affects only enemies and does 2d10 plus stun if it hits. stunning has great effect. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by No problem (talk • contribs) 15:01, 23 August 2008 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

New Role

I was thinking of a fifth role called supporter. Supporters are your general healer/buffer that don't do much fighting at all and just hang around the rear lines healing their allies. I know Leaders provide the same effect, but their classes are balanced towards combat as well, whereas supporters would be focused on healing/buffing. I would like to think of them as a controller that targets your allies and instead of hindering or blasting, they heal and buff. They could grant temporary hit points, grant saving throws, grant use of healing surges, or even revive the dead as a daily power. What's your guy's opinion on this?--Twisted9 07:14, 19 April 2009 (MDT)

If I remember rightly, that's just a leader. Just don't give it any combat skills and that's what you get.--Taritus 09:03, 19 April 2009 (MDT)