Talk:Dragon, Variant (3.5e Race)

Bite and Balance

Bites in DND nearly always do 1/2 str, not 1 1/2 str mod,dragons are the exception, as their bites do full str, and the claws do 1/2. They also tend to do only one size of dice damage larger than the claws(for dragons, that is). The lack of a balancing negative ability score makes this at least LA 1. The Immunity calls for another Level adjustment, and finally, they magic item resizing needs to go in my opinion, part of the challenge of playing a monstrous/big critter is the increase in price for armor/weapons. I am hesitant to put the needs balance template on this because it's still a work in progress, so please discuss a bit before we put that on the page. --Ganre 05:01, 15 April 2009 (MDT)

There is nothing unbalanced with a 1.5x str mod bite. In this case, it's equivalent to "owning a greatsword". You don't have the 19-20/x2 crit range, but can't be disarmed. That balances out. A lack of a negative ability scores does not make a race LA +1. Races are supposed to be a NET POSITIVE. Immunity does not deserve an LA +1 on its own. According to that, as soon as you hit level 11 in wizard, you automatically gain a +5 LA. That's stupid. One, single elemental immunity on its own is perfectly balances, due to the fact that it's obvious (don't shoot fire at the red dragon!) and the fact that it's entirely DM controlled. The DM chooses when that immunity is useful, not you. An increase in price for weapons and armor is entirely unncessary here. It doesn't add to balance, it doesn't add to gameplay, it doesn't add to fun. There's no "challenge" in it, it's just frustrating. The +1 to a stat based on color needs to go, but that's really a minor edit. To say that this race is worth an LA +2 to is just silly. --Dragon_Child

so having a limited energy immunity, 3 attacks at a -2(all at at least at full str mod, no measly 1/2 like EVERYONE ELSE has to do), and favored class any, no ability negative is not worth a - 2 level adjustment, but drow is? what do they get, 3 level 1 spell like abilities, SR(which is crappy due to the level adjustment), and an unbalanced positive ability score. And character wealth most certainly adds to gameplay issues, if you DM is properly balancing the character's wealth. To say that it isn't is just "silly" (PS thanks for insulting my opinion, as you can see, it advanced the discussion) --Ganre 15:42, 15 April 2009 (MDT)

I went in and edited the attacks with the author's permission, to reflect how I originally suggested them. At this point, there should be no complaints against them. The original version was off due to a miscommunication. Favored class is simply flavor. And again, what's the problem with elemental immunity, seeing as it applies only when the DM wants it to? If you're using a published WOTC LA to compare this to, that shows that you're wrong. The published WOTC LAs are designed to be purposefully underpowered. And they are. To complain that people aren't willing to make their new creations underpowered IS silly. The author wants it to be balanced with the core races, and not underpowered (like the drow is). Is that really a bad thing? --[User:Dragon_Child|Dragon_Child]]

Just to put this to rest, it's stated in the Draconomicon that -all- Magical Items usable by Humanoids will reshape to the form of a Dragon.

Just to bring it back up, Draconomican 3.0, or 4th? And somehow, that rings of an optional rule --Ganre 20:32, 15 April 2009 (MDT)

If WotC's system is underpowered, from where do we derive the standard? What should i be balancing this against? Also, if you are clever, you can use energy immunity to your own advantage, for example, a grappled creature does not get a reflex save. Perhaps you make a grappling character, and your wizard buddy drops a maximized fire ball on you, good thing you are immune to fire, too bad for the other guy though. --Ganre 04:57, 16 April 2009 (MDT)

Our standard should be "Is usable in play and balanced against equal level PCs and the monster it's supposed to fight". My standard is that a level 8 dragon (class) should be balanced against a level 8 (race from PHB that's good at class) (class). If we determine dragons ought to be fighters, a level 8 dragon fighter should be equal to a level 8 dwarven fighter. If we want them to be wizards, then it needs to be equal to a gnome. Etc. The PHB races are our balance standard. Drow fail against this balance standard. We should build on good balance, and not bad balance. And let me just point out that the levels you're tossing around maximized fireballs, the wizard can make the fighter-type immune to fire, anyway. Plus, ok, immunity to fire helps. So what? It's a race - it's supposed to be a net positive. And grapple creatures do get reflex saves - nothing says they don't. --Dragon Child

Sigh, I guess I finally gotta leave a comment here now. I would like to see this race playable (and balanced) along side the ranks of typical and untypical PCs. For now, I must start with the typical (in this case, the ol' dwarf, but I'll get to that in a minute. First off, since this is designed to be a LA0 race, it shouldn't have anything all that fancy or overpowered for a level 1 PC. If it does, either scale it over HD progression, make it a racial feat, or add it to the Dragon Paragon class. Now, I picked the ol' dwarf because they both get the same ability score adjustments, and might be likely considerations for someone looking for something tough (as in the Constitution bonus). Okay, so next stop is Type. Immediately, dragon is bonus over humanoid (no charm person or hold person for a dragon), but there are some disadvantages to not being humanoid (shaped at least in this case), but that was already covered (specially made armor being one thing). Though, if I recall, there are some prestige advantages for being of the dragon type. All in all, a net bonus for the dragon on Type. Also, subtype is mentioned here, but not fully explained. If you start handing out subtypes like the standard dragons have, its just going to make more trouble (and a lot more research) to balance it all out. Up next is medium... which they both are, so, moving on to speed. Dragons here are faster by 20 feet and have an additional mode of movement, so yeah, dragon wins out by a lot. Dwarven slowness is meant to be a balancing factor, so, perhaps tone the 40 feet movement down to 30 (as a suggestion), since its not part of the flavor of the race, and just another bonus. Speaking of bonuses, the dwarf gets several various skill bonuses, but the dragon gets little, so, that's one for the dwarf. Now, armor bonuses. Dragon gets a straight up +1 natural armor, while dwarf gets a +4 dodge against giants. While +4 seems awesome, every enemy isn't a giant. The +1 dragon armor wins out for this one. I'm typically wary of giving LA0 races natural armor. By itself, its not a big deal, but it does contribute to the overall power here. Now for weapons. Weapon proficiency against "built in weapons". Gotta go with the "built in" here. You don't have to buy it, can't drop it, have it stolen or otherwise lose it. Granted, you're gonna miss out on weapon treasure loot, but hey, its reliable, easy to spend weapon focus/finesse/whatever on later. Dwarves do get another racially-related bonus (to attack orcs and goblinoids), but toss in that breath weapon, something lacking by a dwarf (even one who's been drinking all night), and the dragon wins out here too. Now, Dwarf gets stability, but so does the dragon, in a sense, since it is a four-footed creature, it gets those bonuses plus a few other things. Oops, almost missed Darkvision, which is standard for 60 feet range on dwarf. I'd suggest bumping it up to that for the dragon as well. So, I think that covers just about everything for the dwarf (besides being accepted most places, but I suppose I can cover that all later). Anyways, the big beef with me here is of course, the last thing, and that's Subtype and Energy Immunity. Typically, to gain immunity to an energy type, you have to have the appropriate subtype that goes with it. With this, you take no damage from your friendly type, but 150% from the opposing type. Now, if you grant just the bonus, its unbalancing. Though, if you add in the subtypes, you also grant them the additional abilities granted by certain subtypes, which, in a race that should be even across the board, it presents problems. I'd recommend lowering the immunity to a scaling resistance (either by HD or by paragon class or whatever). Start it at maybe something like Resistance 5 and have it grow by 1 every HD and gain immunity at 15th level or something, heck, even immunity at 10 HD would be fine. However, LA0 without the subtype (which would create more design problems here), isn't balanced, at all. Leaving it up to the DM to decide how useful the immunity is doesn't work as a balancing factor, ever. The author is responsible for the balance of the material created. In a general sense, the material created should be usable in any game by any DM. So, in conclusion, its all in all more combat powerful than a comparable core race that the dragon might likely adventure with. While the dragon may not be welcome in town, the dwarf may not either, or the drow, or whoever else. That's all game and setting dependent, and can't be used to judge the balance of the race without keeping it open to all manner of possibilities and generalities. All in all, a few things need to be toned down and the whole Dragon Color/Subtype/Bonuses thing needs to be worked on a bit more. I really don't have any more input on any of that and I've droned on for long enough here. Hope this was helpful. --Ganteka 12:34, 16 April 2009 (MDT)

Picture

If anyone was wondering, the picture used is of an Incarnum Dragon, from the supplement Magic of Incarnum. I happen to own it and find the book a neat addition to my collection. Wyrm 23:25, 15 April 2009 (MDT)

Various Changes

The recent changes on energy types, and having a weakness, don't work. For starters, "Acid" does not have an opposing element. While you can say it's electricity, you have to make it clear. "Poison" is also not an energy type you really ought to use. Just make green dragons acid. The dragon breath really ought to be a cone, and not some bizarre new shape. And finally, wouldn't -2 wis be better than -2 cha? We want dragons to be sorcerers, after all, while clerics and druids are a less strong fit for them. --Dragon Child

Completion

This race is completed, and ready for playtesting. It's reached it's balance, and should compare well with the WotC base races. Formatting, and Grammar-Check edits are allowed, but the race is -complete-. No arguments, no finding flaws, and imperfections.

Do you understand how a wiki works? Yes you can request nobody edit the race, but we can continue to discuss it. The reason we do this is to improve the quality of the articles, not to personally bash the author. If people are commenting on your work, take it as a good thing, a sign of interest. --Ganre 18:25, 18 April 2009 (MDT)

There is a fine line between commenting, and arguments, which your discussion with Dragon_Child was. I removed it for good reason. I do not wish for arguments to be upon my page, and I request that you kindly do not post them again, or I will bring up your problem with a Moderator or Admin. I respect your opinion, but I must repeat my stance, do -not- argue over my work. It is mine, not your's. Even I, as the creator, refuse to take a positive or negative stance on it without considering the other parties opinion, which you will notice your particular discussion would have resulted in nothing but a flame war. With this said, feel free to add a comment regarding the completed project, but be kind, and constructive about it. -- Avlindrel 1:04, 19th April 2009

Thats the thing Avlindrel, the page is yours, but the talk page is here for people to voice their opinions on the page. Now then, if they had been slandering you on someone else, without any reason, then there would be no problem with you removing the content, but, the "arguement" you are referring to, was based entirely on peoples opinions of the page, and that is why this talk page exists, for their veiws to be made clear. → Rith ^(talk) 00:49, 19 April 2009 (MDT)

So, it's fine for someone to use someone else's page, meant for constructive criticism, to -argue-, not -give views-, just because it's the Talk Page? That doesn't seem right to me, when this page is, as both of you have already said, for the criticisms of the content, which I have no problem with. But, an argument back and forth is not constructive criticism, it's childish, and doesn't offer any positive content at all. It's one thing to express one's opinion, it's another to do so baselessly, and without consideration for others. Avlindrel

Avlindrel, please assume good faith. A person may post on this page and give a view (as Ganre did, in the beginning), but then, another person disagrees with that view (as Dragon Child did) and not want to see the page become worse in their opinions, and so, they would also give a view. In this way, a discussion is formed. Now then, a person may begin to "give" their views with a little venom in them, but, as long as the views relate to the page, and how it may or may not improve (in that persons opinion), the discussion is still constructive. A discussion only ever becomes unconstructive if ad hominum comes into play, or someone purposefully gives bad advice. Niether happened on this page, and so, all discussions on this page are still constructive. → Rith ^(talk) 01:32, 19 April 2009 (MDT)

Playtesting

I just started playtesting, and I've noticed that at the early levels, the attacks seem to be incredibly high-powered. I have a feeling it will level out by level 4 or 5. I could use others opinions after playtesting this as well, because most of the people I'm playing (and thus comparing myself against) are either new to the game, or support characters. Do most tanks have attacks this powerful? Also, my DM hose ruled in that if anyone plays this Dragon Variant they get the same abilities as wyrmlings of your colour. It makes sense, but some wrymlings get more abilities than others. Thoughts on adding/ balancing that?--Jynxed 04:06, 18 August 2009 (MDT)

I'm about to start a campaign where my players use these guys, and I've had to underpower them quite a bit. I've changed their natural attacks to 1d4 for the claws and 1d6 for the bite, and the breath weapon is 1d6 + 1d6 [type] damage for every two levels after the first (so a level one dragon has a 1d6 breath weapon, while a level 3 has 2d6). The players can use and enhance their natural weapons as normal for monsters, or they can hold a weapon with their jaws/tail/whatever in place of their bite attack. Otherwise, I've kept the natural armor even though that's technically a +1 to level adjustment, and I've changed the energy immunity to energy resistance equal to the character's level (i.e. a level 5 cold dragon would have DR 5 against cold damage). I've also personally removed darkvision, as well as sleep and paralysis immunity, as those seemed superfluous (I figure this also balances out the natural armor bonus). --Txteclipse

idea of using a Dragon in a campaign, and the problems

While I'm not sure how to use this as a Main PC. I like the idea of a secondary Player Character that is a dragon, and may use that if I end up being both DM and player (only have 2 friends near enough to me to play on a schedule). Though the one problem is that, at least as monsters, chromatic dragons are always evil, and I'm not really wanting evil characters in my games.