Talk:Vampire (5e Class)
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There's... at least a few balancing issues:
- At 1st level, someone of this class recovers 1 hit point at the start of every turn. There is consequently no benefit for expending Hit Dice or healing outside of combat.
- At 1st level, Vampire Bite: "A humanoid slain in this way can be resurrected the following night as a vampire spawn under the vampire's control." There's no apparent limit on how many spawns the vampire can have, nor how long this free cohort lasts. Gods forbid the poor DM sets up an encounter with a goblin tribe and the vampire has a goblin army the very next morning.
- At 2nd level, the vampire effectively gains truesight for everything except undeads and constructs out to a range of 60 feet. Almost nothing gains any benefit from invisibility or Stealth checks against it, and can't hide even underground, etc.
- At 6th level, Vampire Drain does not specify whether it takes an action, reaction, etc., to use. It also can create seemingly infinite, indefinite "vampire spawns" like Vampire Bite. It should ideally have a scaling DC instead of a flat DC 18 (which is huge for 6th level, and would be big even at 20th level).
- At 10th level, Children of the Night summons an average of 5 bat swarms or 10 wolves, which admittedly does take 1d4 rounds to activate, but requires only an action. They last for an hour, and this feature can be used "three times per rest." So what's stopping a vampire from summoning ~30 wolves before entering a dungeon or preparing for a combat, then taking a short rest and summoning them back? Even in a world where that was balanced, that's a crazy amount of DM strain for one class feature.
- At 11th level, the vampire, "has advantage on all attack rolls while not in direct sunlight, and the vampire gains +5 to all damage rolls." This even increases to +10 damage in a few levels.
- At 13th level, the vampire can effectively cast charm person 3 times per day, apparently without fail if the target cannot see the vampire. If the target sees the vampire, the saving throw DC is a flat 18 (which again is very high). By the way, the duration is 24 hours. This would be improved if a saving throw was always offered, the DC used a standard formula based on charisma (which is seemingly supposed to be an important ability score for this class anyway), and if it was an upgrade for a lesser version of charm person the vampire learned much earlier.
- At 15th level, the vampire gains resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage from nonmagical weapons. Even a barbarian can only do that while raging, and it's one of the most prominent reasons to be a barbarian. Still, that might not be too powerful on its own, or in a class that was otherwise more balanced
- At 15th level, the vampire gains a flat +5 bonus to AC while not wearing armor. That might be balanced if it was phrased as intended, e.g., "While you are unarmored, your AC equals 15 + your Dexterity modifier. You can use a shield and still gain this benefit. A flat bonus would stack with natural armor, unarmored defense, arguably mage armor, and other such things.
- At 18th level, the vampire gains a flat +10 bonus to AC while not wearing armor. Even if this was phrased as intended, that can easily achieve 26 AC (assuming shield + 18 Dex), in a game where it's almost impossible to get more than 22 AC without using a magic item or being a 20th level barbarian.
- At 20th level, a vampire can use Legendary Resistance as often as (or more often than) a tarrasque. Admittedly, this might not be too much for a capstone feature on its own, but it's another brick in a tower that's too high.
- As a vampire increases in level, it can eventually make four attacks, and can do so even earlier than the fighter (which is still the only official class to get more than a mere two attacks). Considering this is intended to be a martial class, this feature could be balanced if the fourth attack was the capstone feature as it is with fighter, and it didn't otherwise gain huge bonuses to all damage rolls.
I think this class would be good if most of the previously mentioned features were reigned in more, but as it stands this class is potentially campaign-breaking. - Guy (talk) 09:20, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
- So I went ahead and made some changes to the ones you pointed out. Regeneration only goes up to half HP. I changed the flat DC to a scaling one. Children of the night and charmed now recharge on a long rest. Damage is now +3/+5. AC is 15+dex mod though I thinking maybe it should be 10 + dex mod + cha mod but not sure about it. The fourth attack in gained at level 20 and reduced the legendary resistance to half cha mod rounded down, but I think it should be removed entirely just not sure what to put in its place. Added take action to abilities that didn't specify. Removed the loophole from Charmed. I feel that there should be an unarmed strike added somewhere but I don't know if that will throw it out of balanced even more. I don't really have a clue on the vampire spawns since quite a few abilities create them. I'll take a crack at it later after I think on it. In the end I am not sure if these changes made the class balanced, but I hope it is a step in the right direction. Thorrmak (talk) 07:30, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
- I think it's definitely a step in the right direction. To go over some of the changes...
- Regeneration. I personally don't think any player-character should have regeneration at 1st level regardless, but this is definitely an improvement. It might be my personal bias against it than a true "this is unbalanced"; I'm not sure.
- Children of the Night still lets you summon 30 or more creatures for one encounter if you have time to prepare, which is still a crazy amount of hit point and initiative tracking at the very least. It would make more sense if it summoned fewer creatures, but the creatures either (a) lasted much longer and could be used as servants or (b) were much stronger individually.
- Charmed is balanced enough at its level, but I still think it would make for a more fluid progression if the vampire got charm person at a lower level (since most casters can get it at 1st level), and it only empowered to Charmed at the appropriate level. That's nitpicking on my part, though.
- Body of Undeath. Fighter is the only official class that gets to get more than one Extra Attack, and those extra attacks are largely offset by the fact it doesn't have spells or many flat damage increases to its individual attacks (unlike ranger or barbarian). Although it's better than before, throwing in +3 damage and +5 damage on top of so many attacks seems excessive by comparison, especially considering all the other things a vampire can do that a fighter cannot—or things a vampire just does better, like Regeneration compared to fighter's Second Wind.
- Legendary Resistance. I agree that this might be too much. Perhaps if it could be nerfed a little bit and dropped down to 19th level, which is otherwise a bit dry. Instead of simply choosing to succeed, you could choose to gain advantage on the saving throw instead?
- Mundane Resistance (AC). Consider that without magic items, the highest AC bonus a single-class character can receive is usually 17-22 depending on the class, and in many cases that's assuming a Dexterity score of 20, and wielding a shield. I think the AC of 15 + Dexterity modifier is more than enough as it is. AC isn't supposed to scale with level, really; most official classes that get AC bonuses get them at 1st level. Personally, I would replace with with a monk-esque Unarmored Defense at 1st level, where your AC can equal 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Charisma modifier. That might just be me, though.
- As for the vampire spawns... Honestly, I don't think they're needed. The class is plenty powerful without them. Creating undead underlings has been a very exploitable and gimmicky ability whenever I've seen it; it's either game-breaking or a gimmick you can barely use, and in my opinion there's no simple way to make it work that feels right. - Guy (talk) 11:01, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
- I think it's definitely a step in the right direction. To go over some of the changes...
- How about removing the vampire spawns until later level but then only spawning 1 or 2? I like the idea of having some minions around but I do agree that creating them at low level and being limitless is a too much. I do like regenerating health but maybe moving it to a later level? Would halving the number of summons to 1d4 swarm of bats instead of 2d4 etc. and possibly having the summons last 2 hours be better? Would the bonus damage be fine if there were only 3 attacks? I changed the detect all living things to 30ft and I want to add that it can't sense through certain thickness of material but I would have to figure out the thickness for various materials. I think its on some ability/spell already I just need to find it. I do like the idea of having a lesser charm early on but I don't know what level to put it on. I am still new to this sort of thing. Thorrmak (talk) 21:22, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
- So I just had a thought that might fix the bonus damage and extra attacks. Have unarmed strike with damage like the monk. They count as finesse and as if you had two weapon fighting. Only 1 extra attack and have bonus damage equal to prof bonus. That way extra damage only affects unarmed strike and can still get 3 attacks but need to use a bonus action to get the 3rd attack. Thorrmak (talk) 10:02, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
- You just gotta love those rampant, vandalizing anonymous edits. - Guy (talk) 05:28, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
Hey Thorrmok, I also wrote up a vampire class under vampire variant, it can only be edited by users of the site that have an account. Would you be willing to collaborate on the class. I have alot of info on undead and vampires from 3.5 and I am thinking of using some of the skyrim vampire traits to remake the entire class what are your thoughts?--Vladmere.Labefactum (talk) 19:45, 26 December 2017 (MST)
- Love this class. Great work. We found however that the misty escape was under powered compared to regular characters. Regular characters can be healed, and can be raised, and can be revivified. However, this vampire dies a real death if he adventures more than 2 hours from his resting space, making him absolutely no fun to play with. We came up with a alternative that removes the 2 hour limit but requires the mist to slowly make its way back to the resting space. We find this more balanced with other players and consistent with vampiric immortality. It's also still flexible enough that a DM can balance things out as needed in a way consistent with the story and the rules. Muffin boy (talk) 14:24, 20 April 2021 (MDT)