Talk:Undead Controller (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

Maeth' Notes

I sampled a deep character, based on this Undead Controller. I could submit it, but i really suck badly at formating. If anyone want me to dump the raw script, and struggle with making it fit, then note it on this page.

When the "Undead Controller" is using a long spear, I would advice to have the player consider to have it enchanted with Necrotic Focus. That way, the charnel touch will flow right through too, as far as I can see.

When using the point system, it would be hard to force a clean base 18 Cha score through: But Im sure a keen GM would submit to a pleading player who is ready to sacrifice massive Wis and Str and Con and Dex scores, for a few exstra hits in Cha. If a normal human starts with a base 18 Cha, we could imagine that his road would form like this:

18 Cha (BASE)

19 Cha (lvl 4 reach)

20 Cha (lvl 8 reach)

26 Cha ("A Fancy New Robe" - The Dread Necromancer has a wicked taste when it comes to garments. His new black and red robe blesses him with a +6 Enhancement bonus to Cha)

27 Cha (lvl 12 reach)

33 Cha ("A Deal Has Been Struck" - The Dread Necromancer either allied, forced or tricked, a demon into possessing his body and granting a + 6 Vile bonus to Cha)

Anyone know from which book this is? —Sledged (talk) 22:14, 24 October 2007 (MDT)

34 (lvl 16 reach)

39 ("Now Thats A Proper Way To Behave!" - The Dread Necromancer has recently either bought or found a Manual Of Polite Etiquette. Within its pages, a powerful spell unleash a + 5 Inherent bonus to Cha)

42 ("Oh, my old back hurts.." - The Dread Necromancer knows that it is just a question of time before he reaches his goal of lichiness. He gains acces to a plane where time flows considerately faster than on the main plane. There, he grows a long beard, and get a + 3 Age bonus to Cha)

This is best left undone until after he becomes a lich. That way he'll get all the aging bonuses and none of the aging penalties. —Sledged (talk) 10:43, 21 October 2007 (MDT)

43 (lvl 20 reach)

45 (Lichdom achieved; And for a limited time only, you get a whole + 2 Cha thrown down into the deal! Strike now!

Strike now, and raise 420 HD of Undead. Thats a minimum of 21 Undead Creatures - If they are supposed to be young adult skeleton dragons! Go ahead, you earned it!

Other Stuff

You forgot Leadership for a dread necromancer cohort (even more undead), and Undead Leadership. Also, the the familiar's save DCs are Hit Dice-based, so since their HD are equal to the master's the DCs scale with the dread necromancer's level. Also, star elves (Unapproachable East) are an +0 LA race with a +2 Cha. —Sledged (talk) 10:02, 4 July 2007 (MDT)

Yeah, but elves don't really feel like necromancers. For that, you need a human lich. --Sam Kay 10:10, 21 October 2007 (MDT)

That doesn't really matter since optimizations are about using the rules (or abusing them in some cases) to put together effective builds. —Sledged (talk) 10:43, 21 October 2007 (MDT)

Another thing: if you can find a way of raising undead necromancers (that use the same build), that can still raise more undead, you could have even MORE undead (if you can find a way to do it). --Sam Kay 11:12, 25 October 2007 (MDT)

Find some vampires. Use rebuke undead to control them. Find a humanoid or monstrous humanoid that can rebuke undead. Have the vampires turn the undead rebuker into a vampire. Use rebuke undead to control the newly created vampire. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Since vampires have the daylight limitation, another options at higher levels is to command your spellcasting, undead-rebuking cohort to become a lich. Then release her from service and use rebuke undead to command her. Get another spellcasting, undead-rebuking cohort and do the same. Theoretically, you could even seek out a lich whose ECL is four levels higher than your own and command it. —Sledged (talk) 13:23, 25 October 2007 (MDT)

Now that I look at it, theoretically a 20th-level dread necromancer could control another 20th-level dread necromancer, who in turn could control another 20th-level dread necromancer, who could in turn control another, and so on, and so on. And if all have (Undead) Leadership, there's no limit to the number of undead in your hoard. —Sledged (talk) 20:55, 26 October 2007 (MDT)

I see your point about the elf necro thing, but I still think if you are going to make a necromancer, it needs to feel right... --Sam Kay 11:12, 25 October 2007 (MDT)

"Feel right" is purely a personal decision. Even then, I've found that any legal build (and even a few illegal ones) can feel right with a very creative background story, and a DM would be well within his rights to enforce such a stipulation. —Sledged (talk) 13:23, 25 October 2007 (MDT)

Another thing: Star Elves are forgotten realms stuff, so you would need DM permission or be in FR for it to work. --Sam Kay 11:12, 25 October 2007 (MDT)

The same is true for the builds assassin of Shar, Pun-Pun, and spontaneous gnome shadow illusionist. Additionally, the builds artificer player's guide, spontaneous artificer, and swashbuckler-artificer are limited to Eberron. Such limitations do not negate the legality of the builds. —Sledged (talk) 13:23, 25 October 2007 (MDT)

Also, do leadership and undead leadership stack? I think not... Undead leadership IS leadership, but with +2 for undead and -4 for living cohorts... --Sam Kay 11:12, 25 October 2007 (MDT)

The feat says no such thing, and the general consensus among the D&D community is that they do stack. It's a completely separate feat that provides a similar benefit. I'm inclined to think that the designers knew players would try to take both, so if they didn't intend for them to stack, they would have made a note in the "special" section. Instead, they put a note saying that one must check with the DM before selecting the feat, which also applies to Leadership. So it's purely DM's choice whether a character can have both feats. (Personally I'd house-rule that you could have one or the other but not both). —Sledged (talk) 13:23, 25 October 2007 (MDT)

Using a Desecrate spell could effectively double the amount of Undead that can be controlled with Undead Mastery and animate dead being cast. From 80 or 88 to 160 or 172 even before adding the Rod of Undead Mastery. Add that and you'll have 320 to 344 worth of HD Undead. Not too shabby for a level 8 character. The only problem would be finding 344 Skeletons in one place. Maybe the DN could manipulate a war with another city, then using the first of the undead created to fill the 65ft area with more undead over the next 16 hours than cast the last of your Animate Dead spells? :) --Morin 22:29, 19 November 2009 (MST)

Fundemental flaw

Undead mastery is an EPIC feat. Thus can only be taken at 21st or higher... Sry.--Gruegirl 20:09, 23 October 2007 (MDT)

If you look closely, you'll note that "undead mastery" is under the "special" column not the "feats" column. It's a class feature of the dread necromancer. —Sledged (talk) 20:41, 23 October 2007 (MDT)

You are correct. I withdraw my objection. --Gruegirl 12:12, 24 October 2007 (MDT)

Tossing in stuff from outside WOTC

Eschew materials is completely useless and technically so is mother cyst (as the spells it grants are only for clerics/sorcerors/wizards)... I'd much rather have undead leadership and there's a feat in "Ultimate feats" called Dragonblood component that allows someone to substitute HP for any material component (including animate dead) and with tomb tainted soul a dread necro has unlimited self-healing.

Also throwing in swordwraith frees up ANOTHER feat slot since it adds in tomb-tainted soul--Gruegirl 10:58, 15 November 2007 (MST)

I'm fairly certain that the necrotic spells granted by Mother Cyst function in the same way as the oneiromancy spells granted by Improved Oneiromancy. That is, they're simply added to the spell list, regardless of who takes the feat. Feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong. ^_^;; --Ddragon Necrophades 22:09, 26 September 2008 (MDT)

Mother Cyst (Not going to give you link to it that I'm using, but it's in Libris Mortis) adds spells to your spell list. The Dread Necromancer has a spell list. The Dread Necromancer's spell list now includes the Cyst spells. Eschew Materials is NOT a useless feat in some instances and there may be a large possibility that the dude is eschewing materials without having to resort to such terrible things as the Ultimate Feats book. Optimized Builds are generally meant to stay within the guidelines of "WotC Material" because not every game allows for homebrew; nevermind K's homebrew on the Swordwraith front. --195.226.135.138 04:24, 20 November 2009 (MST)

Human?

Well, I don't really see the point in beeing human. the extra feat isn't a big + I'd prefer going with a Spellscale (from races of the dragon) which has LA 0 and a +2 cha -2 con