Talk:Tieflite (3.5e Race)

CHA Reduction is not strictly necessary

This race does not necessarily a reduction to charisma.

While I do agree it has problems in other areas, I believe that placing an arbitrary limit on the race or its creator is not necessary or proper, and especially not when official 3.5e content has examples that are clearly more powerful and still LA+0. See the Lesser Tiefling, introduced in Player's Guide to Faerun: It was changed to have the Humanoid Subtype, and is otherwise the same as a normal Tiefling in all other respects, including special abilities, qualities, and statistics, and it is considered to be a LA+0 race.

While I do not think that +4 charisma is suited to a race of this description, or what little description is currently here, there is no accounting for taste; That said, I do not believe this necessarily constitutes a balance concern, nor should it be forced. Jwguy (talk) 13:17, 30 November 2015 (MST)

I don't think that a +4 ability bonus is appropriate for LA 0. I wouldn't mind seeing this as +1 LA with a HD or two thrown in. Marasmusine (talk) 09:45, 1 December 2015 (MST)

I'm inclined to agree, but only in a purely taste manner. I don't think +4 is unbalanced for a LA0 if it has penalties to other statistics that offset it, which this does in the form of a -2 to dexterity. This follows the rules later introduced by Paizo in Pathfinder, and the seemingly present guidelines for 3.5e where a race should have bonuses to mental stats and penalties to physical stats, or vice versa.

That said, in 3.5e, a lot more of it is just left up to speculation. Between SRD, OGL, and 3rd party content, the guidelines change drastically: Take any of the races from Savage Species, for example, where +6 and +4 abilities scores are all over the place, but are paired with drastic penalties, as well. The Lesser Planetouched races (mentioned above) get +2 to two different stats without any penalties whatsoever, and go on to get multiple resistances, and other neat things. Both examples are LA+0.

I'm not wholly against the sentiment, mind you. Like I said, I have my own reservations against the race, but in regards to balance, I think we either need a concrete argument or policy, or else we're going against a lot of 3.5e literature with examples that outclass this unbalanced race by far. Jwguy (talk) 10:39, 1 December 2015 (MST)

As with the other pages we are discussing, you have me at a disadvantage as I am not familiar with Pathfinder. I will have to bow to your superior knowledge, but I would appreciate references to the later systems to help me catch up: for example, a LA0 race with a high ability modifier! Marasmusine (talk) 15:16, 1 December 2015 (MST)

Pathfinder was a kind of successor to 3.5e, developed by Paizo. It largely carries the same structure, but revisions were made to it mechanically to improve on some of the problems present in 3.5e. Many would argue that they had succeeded, although I prefer 3.5e with respect to Pathfinder. It isn't as important, here, but I mentioned it because Pathfinder, unlike 3.5e, has actual rules that help determine the LA of a custom race. One of their rules (located here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/creating-new-races) is that a creature should typically have a penalty to mental stats if they have a bonus to physical stats, and vice versa. Again, not as big an influence in this case, as 3.5e is still ever so slightly different from Pathfinder, and has a large amount of examples on its own.

In any case, I can't give direct links, as a lot of this is copyrighted material, but if you need a good, solid example, I'd suggest checking the Maeluth entry from the Fiend Folio, pg. 136. It is a plane-touched race, so it can be applied the Lesser Planetouched rules from Player's Guide to Faerun, pg. 191: This combination basically makes it the same as this race, although it has a +4 to CON and -2 to DEX, has Planetouched Resistances, and is considered a LA0 race. --Jwguy (talk) 07:21, 2 December 2015 (MST)

I'd recommend against referencing PFSRD race creation guidelines for 3.5e materials, the systems are similar, but have deceptively different reliances on certain numbers. Plus I'd subnote that Savage Species was 3.0 last I checked. As for the issue in hand, I feel urged to point out that SRD:Orcs_(Race) have +4 Strength and no LA; but also a total of -6 to other abilities and effectively no other bonuses. So there is SRD precedent for a +4 stat at LA0, just about. --SgtLion (talk) 06:03, 7 December 2015 (MST)

I was just pointing out Pathfinder's position as a successor of sorts to 3.5 and how it handled things, in a sort of trivia.

As for the other matter, 3.0 material isn't outright removed from 3.5e play; Some DMs prefer removing it, but it is commonly compatible, and Wizards even released accessory books to guide users in using 3.0 content in 3.5 games.

But even if that weren't the case, Player's Guide to Faerun and Magic of Faerun are still 3.5 items that have examples in them - the most notable being the Lesser Planetouched options, as I've indicated. -Jwguy (talk) 08:21, 7 December 2015 (MST)