Talk:The Wish and the Word (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

Sublime Chord doesn't work the way listed. A sublime chord adds their SC caster levels to their existing arcane class, if there is more than one, they choose one of them. -- Draco18s 144.118.51.195 15:42, 13 October 2008 (MDT)

This has been brought up before, and addressed before, and has also been noted: various erratas since will force a few changes to the build. Surgo 18:03, 13 October 2008 (MDT)

Indeed. These are possibly the most controversial builds found, although they worked at the time of writing them. WotC, however, errataed them out of existence, so far as I can remember. — OptimizationFanatic (talk|contrib) 23:02, 31 October 2008 (MDT)

the ultimate duel

if these still worked, try to imagine a battle between pun-pun and them. Hijax 08:21, 3 January 2009 (MST)

Pun-pun would win as his initiative is arbitrarily high and thus he would go first, instagibing them both with some bs ability. If The Wish had a contingent spell set to 'being attacked' then its something of a toss up though, as nothing from it would kill pun-pun it would have to be an escape mechanism, annulling the entire encounter.--72.84.149.70 14:40, 11 October 2009 (MDT)

Note: A complication is the limitation on special effects (3.5 PHB 171). "With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus works." Additionally, under Combining Magical Effects (3.5 PHB 172) "Two bonuses of the same type don't stack, even if they come from different spells," in combination with, "In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies." This disqualifies the Word's Ioun Stone "addiction" which, in turn, massively decreases his/her spell power, as well as only applying to one caster class at a time (most likely player's discretion per round). -- 14 Mar 2010

Ioun Stones aren't spells, so the passage about spells doesn't apply. "In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all)." Each Ioun Stone is a source, and the bonus is untyped. Therefore, they stack.

there is an argument for untyped bonus' stacking. Since the bonus to caster level is an untyped bonus and on a slotless item its argued they stack. if it was an enhancement, racial, sacred, profane, or some other kind it wouldn't, but this is untyped and untyped stack with untyped. like synergy bonus'. while most DM's might not like it, it works officially i believe. its cheap as all hell, but hey if it works it works--Name Violation 04:41, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Even untyped bonuses are still explicitly prevented from stacking if they “come from the same source” and multiple castings of the same spell are given as example of this. Now it is true that multiple copies of the same magic item is not specifically mentioned, but we are deep into DM bribe area here. Be sure to practice those puppy-dog eyes (not divulging the rest of the build plan will probably help). If he/she says “sure” and laughs manically, be very afraid. edwin (talk) 13:46, 15 January 2013 (MST)

Cringe.

-Not sure if this was ever brought up but since this is Forgotten Realms, wouldn't Mystra's Refusal apply? Essentially, she would just deny them their heinous powers and deliver a beating. - machine29a@mad.scientist.com

Does Mystra's Refusal actually have rules associated with it?

Does Mystra's Refusal apply to spell-likes and supernatural abilities? Because by the time they're enough of a threat to register, that's what they're using. --74.182.83.96 19:16, 29 May 2011 (MDT)

There's rules (in the PHB) about how much extra xp you can carry at a time. The thought bottle sets your xp to a high level... "If, for some extraordinary reason, a character gains enough XP to advance two or more levels at once, he or she instead advances one level and gains just enough XP to be 1 XP short of the next level" And as the stored experience would then be gone... yeah. It isn't quite as broken as it might seem. The Word build is still possible...but as he'd have to gain all those levels again, he's almost certain to have been killed by enemies made long before he goes through the last life. Also, an anti magic field would drop the stones, likewise a disjunction.

The thought bottle does not mention being discharged. You simply touch it once and pay 500 XP, which sets a variable = your current XP less the activation cost. You can then touch the bottle as many times as you want to reset your XP total. So even if the PHB text on gaining XP sufficient to advance multiple levels applies, you can just touch the bottle, advance a level, then touch the bottle again. Furthermore, the PHB text conflicts with greater restoration's text: "This effect also reverses level drains by a force or creature, restoring the creature to the highest level it had previously attained." The spell can reverse multiple level drains, just as the thought bottle can restore "levels lost due to death."

DM Counters

Marginalize the Wish

1. Wish spell cannot create a ring of infinite wishes, as the wish spell cannot create artifacts.

A ring of infinite wishes is not an artifact.

1. You get a broken ring of infinite wishes (this is more likely given that the wish build calls for wishes from evil outsiders).

You can shapechange into a Zodar and cast the wish yourself for free. No outsiders required.

Marginalize the word

1. immunity to death effects/paralysis/blindness/deafness
2. limit caster level to HD, except where specifically stated, or where effective caster level is used
3. Orange Ioun stone grants +1 caster level... to one class (it can be read like this)
4. Ur Priest only gains from natural caster level, unaugmented by items

VS Gods

1. The Gods, with Arcane Mastery, can create spells on the fly. They create a scrying spell that allows them to bypass mind blank. This allows them to find The pair, with a wish/miracle they can remove all their items. A sufficiently powerful mortal could do this too.
2. increased spell resistance grants 20 to a gods spell resistance and it stacks.
3. rejuvenation makes deities come back, except when killed by more powerful deities
4. divine splendor: mortals withing 10 feet per divine rank die

Just to start: blasphemy and holy word aren't death effects.

The penultimate DM counter to "The Wish" (as is printed here) is that the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil requirements say "Spells: Able to cast five abjuration spells, including at least two of 4th level or higher." The Warlock uses invocations... not spells. They are different. Page 18 of Complete Arcane very clearly states that Warlocks cannot qualify for any prestige class which lists a spellcasting level as a requirement.

This entire section is moronic. You don't have to be a passive aggressive little weasel. You say "No." You're the DM. You're not bound by the rulebook. Also, theoretical optimization by definition isn't intended to be used in a game. There is no need to worry about players using it and forcing your spineless ass into a confrontation.