Talk:The Seraphim (5e Subclass)

 "I'm concerned about the Flavor of this Archetype."
 "It doesn't seem right."
 "Aren't Warlockes supposed to be evil?"
 "Or at least associated with occult, or otherwise questionable groups?

Well, yes, sort of, they are. I was concerned about this. I still am, actually. But for those in the community wanting to use this archetype anyways, I'm listing a few possible scenarios you might use as an excuse to those who would question your decision:

• Redeemed Heretic: The Warlock was once evil, but has worked for many years to change his ways. The Seraphim offers him a chance at true redemption, buying off whatever previous contract formerly held his soul.
• Deathbed Repentence: The Warlock was an evil soul, whom, while on the brink of death, was offered a chance at redemption. The Seraphim making this offer holds the power to withdraw his gift, and as well as the power unnaturally extending your life, any time he chooses. (so don't slip up or get him mad)
• Evil Seraphim: The Seraphim granting your power is a fallen angel, he commissions you to perform good and/or evil acts at his leisure.
• Ancient Deity: If there is a weird ancient Deity in your campaign, who doesn't actually have clerics anymore, but decides to select a representative, and vie for power.

--Entropicscholar (talk) 22:53, 28 July 2015 (MDT)

Thanks for the above. This could also work for those who make pacts with planetars and solars, and in the case of one of my warlocks, a couatl. Also I was inspired by the light-wielding warlocks in the game, Destiny. And if you dont want a celestial warlock in your campaign- DONT USE IT. However 5th edition is all about flexibility and creativity, and they dont have heavy restrictions. One could even have a Chaotic Paladin by choosing Oath of the Ancients, which is practically made for elves. As for nonevil warlocks, I like to think of Ghost Rider as one. Now is his boon pact of the chain or the blade technically lol? --D'Artagnan (talk) 10:48, 29 July 2015 (MDT)

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I'm worried about the level 10 ability. poison immunity, plus two resistances seems ability more powerful than the PHB abilities at level 10 (for warlocks that is). it seem like it would be better to A) give 2 resistances B)give 1 immunity C)give advantage on saves against all 3 items D)some other power, plus a single resistance. --Entropicscholar (talk) 22:54, 28 July 2015 (MDT)

At a Glance

Hey there, I just did a cursory overview of the homebrew warlock class features (boons + invocations). Saw this patron show up by name a handful of times and figured I'd come check it out.

• The flat handout of all cleric cantrips is a tad much IMO. If you wanted the lock to have certain cantrips, please just call it out. I mean even just saying "all cantrips that deal radiant damage" + maybe spare the dying or something equally benevolent. Doing it that way can also ease the cantrip selection process while still not rendering the tome's coolest part moot for an entire class.

• The expanded spell list also has me raising an eyebrow. There is a bit too much healing on the bonus spells, especially for a class with short rest slots. Healing Word would be great, Heroism could get that nice holy feel with some damage mitigation sprinkled on top without being flat healing magic. Shield of faith could be a neat include for the spell list as well. Revivify is a nice touch, not too often you'll need to use it and it gets expensive, but is still super handy. I might even suggest hunter's mark or a modified hex (to deal radiant instead of necrotic). I'd also swap out Aura of Hope with Daylight or even Crusader's Mantle. Prayer of Healing could be swapped with Calm Emotions. The level 4 spells look just fine to me. But Mass Cure Wounds has me concerned, yes combat healing tends to be a suckers gambit, but in the long run the warlock with healing spells can outpace other classes. I'm really just trying to offer suggestions that help keep the ball in the Benevolent/Wrathful Angel corner. There can be so much more to being radiant than just patching boo-boos. An angelic warlock can easily be righteous might of a group, almost like a spell slinging holy roller. That something the cleric and the paladin just don't do.

• The 1st level ability is . . . odd. Conceptually I the idea of reaping the benefits of dropping the scourge, but the Prof to damage is throwing me off and I'm not certain how I feel about it. The use of Prof + Cha seems like it would lean to serious dipping abuse. What do you see of just allowing them to add the Warlock level + Cha or 1/2 warlock level, thus putting the formula in line with things like the Fiend and the Storm Sorcerer. I do like that it does not trigger itself.

• So your second set of patron features if off in a couple of ways. It says that it takes hold at 4th level, 2 levels ahead of every other patron's progression. Next you have an ability that you can use when "Bloodied", which is not an official a term or status used in 5e. Ok, then comes the wonky part where the user explodes with radiant damage in a 15ft radius for Xd6 + Cha damage, no save, just pick your huckleberries and blow the rest. And then the user gets to heal a number of d8+1 equal to the number of creatures dropped... To me 6th level would be a pretty solid point to introduce some healing to the patron. You've shown their Wrath, so now they can express some Benevolence. Heck even the paladins Lay on Hands would be fantastic and provide a way for them to cure diseases and have a healing option that wouldn't see too much short rest spell recovery abuse. Being a 6th level feature, you could also offer the ability to blow out the remainder of you Lay on Hands after an attack drops you to 0. Kind of like some angelic Relentless (see 1/2 orc) feature.

• I like the 10th level feature for the most part. It invokes that sense of eternity that an angelic figure would. The double down on resistances is a little extra in most cases, but the Fiend gets a modular resistance, the Old One gets a resistance to a rare damage type w/ backlash from taking that type, and the Archefey has a common condition immunity w/ the ability to flip it back. So 2 opposed resistances that a PC race already gives is just fine to me. The fluffy age business is on point for someone blessed by a denizen of the heavens.

• Overall, very supreme being passing judgement feeling from this. Overall your 14th level feature feels like it was a re-fluffed version of the Fiend's "Hurl Through Hell" feature, not a bad thing. Might I suggest describing it in a way similar to hurl through hell that causes the creature to actually be transported elsewhere. Maybe the chains appear from nowhere and drag it into it own personal realm of holy judgement. The results would mechanically be the same and you'd be able to fluff it however you feel is best.

I hope this was at least helpful. I'd like to make changes to the article in these ways, but I want to make sure not to lose the authors vision for it. Also if possible, I think it would be helpful if a list of Seraphim exclusive invocations(and their levels) was tacked onto this, similar to how the archon familiar was listed.--Gr7mm Bobb (talk) 20:13, 23 January 2017 (MST)

Angel's Ward or Healing Hands?

The 6th level feature's title states that it is called Angel's Ward, though in the feature itself it mentions "Healing Hands". SirSprinkles (talk) 00:04, 19 February 2017 (MST)

Whoops, A bit of ctrl c+v gone awry. Fixed it.--Gr7mm Bobb (talk) 00:13, 19 February 2017 (MST)

Also, Celestial Blood mentions that you "suffer no penalties for old age", though 5e doesn't really have any explicit penalties for old age, and neither the Monk's Timeless Body feature nor the Druid's Timeless Body feature state that they negate penalties. Perhaps it should be changed to be something more in line to what they grant (probably the monk's version, as it's the most similar)? SirSprinkles (talk) 00:22, 19 February 2017 (MST)

That would make the most sense. I probably should have changed that while I was going through stuff. The monk gets his feature through purity of self, whereas the druid is constantly in touch with the world which is in most cases an immortal living mass of existences. I'm not entirely certain which of the 2 features an archangel would grant though. If the feature causes someone to become more like a timeless outsider, I would honestly expect it to behave like the druids extended life feature.--Gr7mm Bobb (talk) 00:54, 19 February 2017 (MST)

Misunderstandings of Warlock Class

It appears that there is a misunderstanding of when the warlock receives its patron specific rewards. I have corrected it again but am open to discussing why it is felt that this specific patron should bestow its 6th level ability at level 4. --Gr7mm Bobb (talk) 19:47, 13 July 2017 (MDT)

Level 4 vs Level 6

Personally, the healing from Angel's Ward is significantly weaker than the other patrons due to its scaling, and is comparable to the Paladin's lay on hands which is gained at 1st level. Also, you have to bear in mind that the healing done is significantly weaker for the lower levels, so gaining the feature at 4th level is not as strong as gaining it at 6th.

Also, the change in the spell list diverges from the original idea I had for this class when updating/balancing originally. --Minohoonoo (talk) 23:10, 15 July 2017 (GMT)

Okay, So with edits of that nature on pause atm. The idea that should be expanded on is whether or not a cross class ability at a later level than the standard class is or is not worth the requisite 6th archetype feature. When designing an archetype it is less jarring to the balance of the system to follow the layout already provided. As for the spell list, the selected spells have already been discussed both here an in other areas as the problems that arise from providing regular healing spells with the warlocks pact magic slots outside of cross-class methods. The spell list was to provide a sense of theme in line with an angelically charged patron who is to be an extension of some "otherworldly good-will". For the 6th level feature given not only gives out a very potent iconic class feature an even expands on it to provide a "get outta jail free card" for the character that manages their stash of healing power. --Gr7mm Bobb (talk) 11:57, 22 July 2017 (MDT)