Talk:Strider (3.5e Prestige Class)

Nature's Cloak

Shouldn't Nature's Cloak also add a bonus to the DC to track a strider? --Connery55 13:11, 25 May 2009

Define "Natural"

Interesting class, but i think that you need to provide more limitations on "natural" materials for the nature's cloak and cornered prey abilities. Generally, i define natural in my game as "Not built, but grown" so a man made wall of stone would not count in my games, but a cliff certainly would. --Ganre 15:38, 4 March 2009 (MST)

My Opinion

You asked for my opinion last night, so here it is: a good class, I think, but the prerequisite 3 levels of Rogue is really harsh. I'd rather see people entering the class as Druid 4 / Rogue 1 (you still miss out on Wild Shape) which means "Resist Nature's Lure, Sneak Attack +1d6" or, at the absolute most, Druid 3 / Rogue 2 which means "Evasion, Sneak Attack +1d6". Not Druid 3 / Rogue 3. Surgo 10:21, 28 March 2009 (MDT)

Rating

Power - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because, other then wild shape, this continues gaining most everything good which is present in the Druid, as well as many good aspects of the Rogue. And then combining Sneak Attack with nature aspects, it comes off as overpowered. I would recommend cutting down on the spellcasting, and then removing some abilities which throw off the balance a lot - such as Nature's Passage. Also all the class features are not labeled with their corresponding special ability markers. Also, why are the DC's in the Striders Lore section such strange numbers? --Green Dragon 18:18, 4 April 2009 (MDT)

I know you removed this rating, but what im curious about is how the full casting made it over powered, i think by removing the wildshape features, one of the primary abilities used in order to break the druid, adding the sneak attack made it just as balanced. I do agree with limiting the natures passage ability. but with the removal of wildshape, i think the addition of sneak attack is just fine, your thoughts?Summerscythe 21:55, 4 April 2009 (MDT)

Also if you look at the arcane trickster, it has a full sneak attack progression as well as full spell casting progression, with some very usefull abilities, in my opinion the strider matches this class, though might be a smidgen more powerful.Summerscythe 22:24, 4 April 2009 (MDT)

Where is the epic progession? Also, since when is the arcane trickster a staple of balance? --Green Dragon 05:23, 10 April 2009 (MDT)

I added my power rating back since it still applies. --Green Dragon 16:02, 17 April 2009 (MDT)

Arcane Tricksters are generally considered weak, which was the point he was getting at. Surgo 19:17, 17 April 2009 (MDT)

Wording - 4.5/5 I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because the grammar in Striders in the World does not follow the English guidelines very well. Also I think I may have noticed a few other minor grammatical errors here and their, but very few when at all. Although I did not check how well this follows the Help:When to Italicize and Capitalize --Green Dragon 18:18, 4 April 2009 (MDT)

The class name should not be capitalized (Help:When to Italicize and Capitalize). --Green Dragon 03:45, 5 April 2009 (MDT)

I changed the Striders in the World section a bit, however I still feel that it is pretty poorly worded. Also there are still quite a few grammatical errors. --Green Dragon 12:55, 9 April 2009 (MDT)

Formatting - 3.5/5 I give this class a 3.5 out of 5 because no links to the SRD are present and the class features in the table do not link to their corresponding class feature. --Green Dragon 18:18, 4 April 2009 (MDT)

Formatting - 4.5/5 I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because I feel a few more links could be added still. --Green Dragon 03:45, 5 April 2009 (MDT)

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the formatting follows the preload, it has a good amount of links to the SRD, and the class feature table entries link to their class features. --Green Dragon 12:47, 9 April 2009 (MDT)

Flavor - 3.5/5 I give this class a 3.5 out of 5 because no example NPC is present. Also, although sparsely, throughout this article there are certain things which were not filled out when this was added. For example at the start of the class features, in the lore section, etc. Also your second quote needs the origins and speaker present. --Green Dragon 18:18, 4 April 2009 (MDT)

Flavor - 3.75/5 I give this class a 3.75 out of 5 because no example NPC is present and the entire information in the Striders in the Game is not filled out. --Green Dragon 05:06, 10 April 2009 (MDT)

Flavor - 4.75/5 I give this class a 4.75 out of 5 because the information in the Striders in the Game is not filled out. --Green Dragon 16:00, 17 April 2009 (MDT)

Flavor - 5/5 Looks good to me. --Green Dragon 10:04, 21 April 2009 (MDT)

Rating

Power - 2/5 The losses of caster levels is terrible for ant spellcasters, losing 7 make the strider cast as a 9th level druid at level 16. So he just learnt to cast level 5th spell while a full druid is about to learn 9th. This is terrible. The rogue side doesn't get better at all, the loss of Sneak Attack is a crippling blow to fire power. All is not lost, restoring caster levels or simply dropping the entire druid thing and replace it with class feature would be better. Cool stuff is cool, but any class feature is completly and utterly worthless comapre to the awesomeness of spellcasting, you sacrifice versatility, powers, wild shape (another big of the druid) and Raw damages to gain a slight bit of cool. Bad trade off, if you wnat Summer I can prove this by having a strider battling a druid in your Colosseum. --Lord Dhazriel 20:18, 4 April 2009 (MDT)

Power - 4.5/5 Much better.

Wording - 4.5/5 It neat over here. --Lord Dhazriel 20:18, 4 April 2009 (MDT)

Formatting - 4.5/5 I Don't see a problem, pretty neat too. --Lord Dhazriel 20:18, 4 April 2009 (MDT)

Changed my rating to 5.

Flavor - 4.5/5 I love the class flavor. Rogue/druid was never truly covered. --Lord Dhazriel 20:18, 4 April 2009 (MDT)

Changed to 5, NPCs and fluff was filled. --Lord Dhazriel 12:23, 29 April 2009 (MDT)

Overall, it was way better before. Worst yet, this class is completly useless to the druid, and could be of some us e to the ranger. But the spellcasting requirement literally thwart the Ranger/Strider.

Suggested Fix:

A) The Druid Strider

• Full caster progression. A druid is a spellcaster, so he want spells.
• Full caster progression. Yes it that important it worth being mentioned twice.
• Maybe replace Sneak Attack requirement for Evasion, allow other classes to enter the strider and make spellcasting better.

B) The Druid Strider II:

• Advance wild shape.
• Reduce the loss of caster levels, yes it annoying but it an absolute must.

C) Non-Spellcasting Strider

• Remove spellcasting requirement.
• Remove animal compagnion requirement, give them one and let it stack with other class levels granting animal companion.
• Full Sneak Attack.
• Make class features stronger.

I am sorry if I sound harsh, but it not against the strider or you, I just want to help.--Lord Dhazriel 20:18, 4 April 2009 (MDT)

Why The Spellcasting Loss?

This class was fine as-is, if not a bit underpowered because of the extremely high prerequisites making your character a wimp. Why were the spellcasting levels removed? Surgo 20:39, 4 April 2009 (MDT)

Sample Character

Okay let's build a sample Strider as shown to evaluate the abilities of the class. Let's say he starts off as a Rogue.

Class	Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Abilities
Rogue 1	Level 1	0	0	2	0	SA +1d6, Trapfinding
Rogue 2	Level 2	1	0	3	0	Evasion
Rogue 3	Level 3	2	1	3	1	SA +2d6, Trapsense +1
Druid 1	Level 4	2	3	3	3	Animal Companion, Nature Sense, Wild Empathy
Druid 2	Level 5	3	4	3	4	Woodland Stride
Druid 3	Level 6	4	4	4	4	Trackless Step
Strider 1	Level 7	4	4	6	6	SA +3d6, Animal Companion
Strider 2	Level 8	5	4	7	7	Nature's Cloak +2
Strider 3	Level 9	6/1	5	7	7	Sensory Link, Nature's Passage
Strider 4	Level 10	7/2	5	8	8	SA +4d6
Strider 5	Level 11	7/2	5	8	8	Animal Companion SA +1d6, Nature's Cloak +4
Strider 6	Level 12	8/3	6	9	9	Cornered Prey, Improved Evasion
Strider 7	Level 13	9/4	6	9	9	SA +5d6
Strider 8	Level 14	10/5	6	10	10	Nature's Cloak +6
Strider 9	Level 15	10/5	7	10	10	Hide in Plain Sight
Strider 10	Level 16	11/6	7	11	11	Animal Compnaion SA +2d6, SA +6d6
Druid 4	Level 17	12/7	8	11	12	Resist Nature's Lure
Druid 5	Level 18	12/7	8	11	12	Wildshape 1/day
Druid 6	Level 19	13/8	9	12	13	Wildshape 2/day
Druid 7	Level 20	14/9	9	12	13	Wildshape 3/day
and Casting as a 17th Level Druid. HD: 12 d6 + 7d8 + 6 + con x level Skill points: 160 + Intelligence bonuses

Analysis of Base Stats:

Necessary Stats: This character only truly requires good dexterity and wisdom scores. They would be well served by having decent strength and constitution modifiers but have little need for intelligence or charisma.
Skills: This character would have an impressive array of skills and abilities for any character and receives them fairly quickly. They also have an abnormally large skillset to choose from.

Hitpoints: Although a little anemic in this category, it could easily be solved by the character's buffing abilities or magical items.

BAB: Being one short of the good 3/4 progression seems a little rough, but the character's saves compensate for this.

Saves: This character has superb saving throws. Fortitude weighs in with an impressive 9 as the lowest. Reflex is a full save, and Will is amazing.

Analysis of Special Abilities:

This character has more special abilities than God on a good day.

Sneak Attacks: This character can benefit from flanking in any situation via their animal companion or his surroundings. When using his animal companion he will always have flanking thus granting him a +2 on his attacks, as well as an effective +8d6 on his damage. There would be no excuse not to use this advantage, and the everpresent flanking makes up for the slightly sub-par base attack bonus.

Animal Companion: By missing only 3 levels of this progression this character maintains a very respectable natural ally.

Evasion, Improved: This ability combined with the character's requisite dexterity and impressive reflex save nullifies the ability of almost all area attacks.

Trapfinding & Trapsense: this character has the potential to detect and evade all traps presented to it.

Skill bonuses: This character gains considerably in skills over any other class build by effectively having six skill focuses in hide and move silently (with an environment requirement easily met).

Hide In Plain Sight: This character gains Hide in Plain sight a full 2 levels before Ranger (the designated forest ninjas of core).

Escape Potential: This character has many ways to leave combat and lose anything even considering tailing him. Without using magic he can pass through natural environments without impediment leaving no trace after having walked through a wall. He will then be nearly undetectable even when directly observed. This character embarasses all assassins and rogues in this scenario.

Sensory link: This character gains an undetectable divination spell essentially at will.

Spellcasting: Given a good wisdom score this character suffers little in terms of spell level loss. They can still cast 9th level spells and are therefore nigh god-like in strength. They also have access to potent healing abilities that improve their combat longevity.

Overall: This character is better than rogue because it overcomes the rogue's most basic need for flanking. It sneaks better, it is harder to detect, easier to get away with, and effectively has a higher attack bonus as well as having superior saves. This character is not a druid, but benefits from most of the abilities of the class. The loss of wildshape abilities could be viewed by some as a detriment, but if the player desires wildshape they should play a straight druid.

Potence doesn't begin to describe this character, extraordinarily self-reliant and almost unstoppable this is not someone to be trifled with.

In terms of gamebalance this whole idea is ridiculous. It blurs the lines on gestalt with how gishy this build is. There is no true justification for allowing this in a game, it's purpose is already covered by the Ranger class. This build is far too powerful, and downright unbalanced to allow in standard play. They melee better than both a Rogue and non-shaped Druid. The casting is only very slightly hampered, but it receives a +2 bonus to attack in all situations and +6d6 or 8d6 on a successful melee. It sneaks better than a rogue and has zero dead levels. The losses in damage and casting when compared to a straight rogue or straight druid are positively trivial. If this character were to ever encounter an unfavorable situation (unlikely) it could escape without any fear of being pursued. When compared with the 3 classes most closely related to it, it is a monster and should never be played.

In short this class while intending to develop an interesting character ignores game balance and game design. The ranger was designed to fulfill this precise purpose (look at what skills it has and what its abilities do). I love a highpower campaign, but this character would ravage almost anything thrown at it and would be a nightmare to DM. I can't see anyone reasonable really allowing this.

This could easily devolve into how casters are broken, but the essential point is: yes they are. Having a caster that does another whole character archetype's job better without the use of magic is ridiculous. Having that character also overcome all of that archetypes problems is even more so. --Blastlegar Bardoon 01:19, 5 April 2009 (MDT)

For most of that character's life, he is casting three levels behind the PCs. That means that the fighter's druid girlfriend cohort is a better caster than he is. If anything, this class could be considered weak for that reason alone. That's not "slightly hampered", that's "if the fighter took leadership he'd have a better caster than you". You also aren't dishing out huge piles of damage like a normal rogue (you get decently behind in sneak attack here, which effects your huge piles of damage significantly), and lose one of the biggest strengths of the druid along the way (the polymorph abuse). I'm really not too concerned about this being overpowered. A straight druid is significantly better. A straight rogue, probably about even or slightly ahead. Being able to flank with your animal companion is pretty cool, but also pretty pointless in the grand scheme of balance because the rogue has several tricks that allow them to have sneak attack on all the time. The game is more than level 20. The game is also levels 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19. Surgo 01:59, 5 April 2009 (MDT)

The game is more than level 20, but it is also more than casting. He does do things better than a straight rogue, 2d6 doesn't really mean much of anything compared to a straight +6 on indetectability. Besides if your players are using their combat dice more than their skills they are probably doing it wrong. Casting is freaking ridiculous in D&D anyways, if you had half casting in any of the classes you'd still trash just about anything if you had your wits about you. Spells give an immense boost in power beyond anything comparable to a non-spellcasting class. Basically you took a rogue and gave him a crapton of magic and said here this is fluff about how you like nature, enjoy being an unholy being of pure destruction. This character was not designed to be a full casting class, and should not be treated as such in a party. I am stating however that it is close enough to it create considerable problems in party dynamics. This character doesn't need other players ever. He's sneaky, he can heal, he can cast, he can beat the crap out of things, and he does it just BARELY, less skilled than classes devoted to it. This game is a role playing game, Strider doesn't really give much of a role other than LOL power. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Blastlegar Bardoon (talk • contribs) 02:15, 5 April 2009 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

Rogues already have a crapton of magic (they get Use Magic Device as a class skill). The only thing I'm really getting out of this paragraph that you wrote is the Strider is too powerful because he's a spellcasting class. Um...okay? Also, the claim that he does things better than a straight Rogue is incorrect. By taking Druid and Strider, you've permanently hopped off the level-appropriate train and are now permanently and irrevocably behind in Sneak Attack. That means that your huge piles of damage that were supposed to be one-hit kills on any arbitrary enemy in combat no longer exist. Surgo 02:36, 5 April 2009 (MDT)

Saying that someone could take leadership doesn't nullify the effects of everything this class does. By that argument the strider should take leadership to gain an arcane casting companion in order to break the game with their justice friends power. Besides as per the DMG leadership is known for being a game breaking feat and completely changes the campaign anyways. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Blastlegar Bardoon (talk • contribs) 02:15, 5 April 2009 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

Could you please point to where I said it nullified the effects of everything this class does? (You won't be able to, because I never said that.) The point was that the fighter's girlfriend is a better caster than you are. You've given up ridiculous power to take this class. So it'd damn well better be worth it. Surgo 02:36, 5 April 2009 (MDT)

NPC

As requested, here is the Striders NPC (currently in the works):

Vadania Crisp

CR 10

	Male Human Druid 3, Rogue 3, Strider 4
	N Medium humanoid (Human)
Init/Senses	+4/Listen +17, Spot +17
Languages	Common, Druidic, Sylvan
AC	, touch , flat-footed (+4 Dex)
hp	55 (10 HD)
Resist	Evasion
Fort/Ref/Will	+7/+12/+12
Speed	30 ft. (6 squares)
Base Atk/Grp	+15/+17
Atk Options	Sneak Attack +4d6
Special Actions	Sensory Link
Abilities	Str 12, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 19, Cha 11
SQ	Nature's Cloak, Nature's Passage, Nature Sense, Trackless Step, Trap Sense +1, Trapfinding, Wild Empathy, Woodland Stride
Skills	Listen +17, Spot +17

	Vadania's Black Bear
Size/Type:	Medium Animal
Hit Dice:	5d8+10 (30 hp)
Initiative:	+6
Speed:	40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class:	16 (+2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple:	+3/+8
Attack:	Claw +8 melee (1d4+5)
Full Attack:	2 claws +8 melee (1d4+5) and bite +3 melee (1d6+2)
Space/Reach:	5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks:	Guard, Seek
Special Qualities:	Evasion, Link, Low-light vision, scent, Share Spells
Saves:	Fort +8, Ref +6, Will +2
Abilities:	Str 20, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills:	Climb +11, Listen +7, Spot +7, Swim +11
Feats:	Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative

thank you so very very much so, it would be awesome if you could also hel p me with the animal companion, but if not i understand. Summerscythe 00:54, 17 April 2009 (MDT)

Heh heh, it's no problem man, and of course I'm gonna help with the animal companion, it's not all that difficult after all (If you have access to the correct templates). And boom, there it is. → Rith ^(talk) 12:01, 17 April 2009 (MDT)

Featured Article Nomination

— This article did not become a featured article. No image present. --Green Dragon 23:08, 31 August 2009 (MDT)
Please feel free to re-nominate it once it meets the FA criteria and when all the major issues brought up in this nomination have been dealt with.

Support I nominate this article because I think it is well made and a is an example of formatting, balance, wording and balance. I believe it exemplify all a 3.5e Prestige Class should be. --Lord Dhazriel 13:56, 21 April 2009 (MDT)

Support I am supporting LD's nomination of this class because I personally think that it's well balanced in comparison to other classes, giving it a nice fit in with everything else. I am very much a flavor player, and this class has that as well. It combines two of my favorite choice classes all in one, and is something I AM considering using out of usefulness and just plain fun. --Bunnie 13:56, 21 April 2009 (MDT)

Oppose I do not feel that this is balanced. It needs to match to balanced class from wizards, not to extremities. --Green Dragon 12:01, 22 April 2009 (MDT)

Um, looks balanced just fine to the Arcane Trickster. Surgo 12:57, 22 April 2009 (MDT)

Here's my problem, If i make it any less powerful, like ten regular people on this site are gonna yell at me and slap opposes on the class for being underpowered, but you think its overpowered by keeping it the same, I'm in a sort of catch 22 position here, It's all very confusing.... *Face palms. Summerscythe 12:12, 22 April 2009 (MDT)

Well it is balanced compared to the arcane trickster which is a wizard class, but I believe there is another way to settle this without a huge balance debate. An alternate progression, allow DM to pick a weaker version of the strider so it fit in a regular game. What do you think? --Lord Dhazriel 12:16, 22 April 2009 (MDT)

Lol, now I'm not a regular person on this site ;)? And why not just have the example NPC vs some creatures or other NPC's and see the percent it wins compared to the percent it should win? Personally I would not want to have a class with an "Alternate Progression" be the FA. --Green Dragon 12:22, 22 April 2009 (MDT)

Well we could, I beta-tested the class in one of my online games. So we need to take a creature of equal CR.

A mighty Bebilith, so what are the striders option.

A) Attack it melee, the strider is royally done. He need to falnk with his animal companion or summoned allies. (An Arcane Trickster would simply turn invisible). With a +19 on it bite, the creature would only need a 2 to hit. With a +14 on it claw, it only need a 6. With a +10 on it primary attack, the strider need a 12. The creature got 100 hp over the strider hp. Lacking in sneak attack he can't hope to bring it down before being torn to pieces. Both are CR 10.

B) Use spells... with it limited spells and caster levels. And the belilith giant saves teh strider stand little change. His compagnion is soon going to turn into a fine bloody mist and the strider is next.

C) Sneak! Battle over, Belilith got scent.

So yeah... really he only got hope to defat it using the right spells and having a lucky (unlucky) roll (for the belilith saving throw). --Lord Dhazriel 12:34, 22 April 2009 (MDT)

Oh yeah forgot, each time the Belilith succeed an attack, the Strider need to make a Fortitude save (and need a 15 so 75% failure rate) or take con damages. And the Belilith eventually destroy the strider armor. --Lord Dhazriel 12:43, 22 April 2009 (MDT)

Green Dragon, how is the arcane trickster an extremity? its SRD even, and it's core, its a prime example of prestige class balance. please answer that. I believe this class is balanced. and I cant change it either ay or else the frank and k brigade will rip this class apart. *Sighs*, Silly frank and k brigade and there warpedness...Summerscythe 00:13, 14 May 2009 (MDT)

Okay but SRD or Core does not necessarily mean balanced. If that was the case then their would be no place for SRD only CO's. --Green Dragon 13:13, 28 May 2009 (MDT)

Support - I am supporting LD's nomination of this class. This class has alot of originality. I do not feel the class is too underpowered because of its lagging caster level. Lets face it, that can be fixed with a single feat(Practiced Spellcaster). Also, I believe that this class makes for a very very flexible scout, which I think most people will like. As for it's apparent weaknesses, thats what magic items are for. I am really looking forward to using this class in a campaign. There's fun to be had in sneakattacking ppl after popping out of some random object in the forest. BackHandOfFate 10:32, 23 April 2009 (MDT)

Wait, what? Practiced Spellcaster? Two or three caster levels is not a big deal to lose. What is a big deal is the lost spell level, which Practiced Spellcaster doesn't fix. Honestly, it's not even worth the feat slot. Magic items are only ever considered in balance if a character gets them for a reduced cost; every character gets them to an equal degree, so it evens out 100%.

Oppose - 100% optimized, this class necessitates losing two caster levels (getting sneak attack from rogue/variant fighter). Not only does the druid casting fall behind what it needs to be in order to be competitive at its level, but the sneak attack progression slows. All in all, it ends up being subpar in both of the roles that it tries to fill. It's certainly not the most underpowered class out there, but it's off-balance enough that I will not support its FA nomination. --Daniel Draco 17:39, 18 July 2009 (MDT)

Oppose: No image present. --Green Dragon 23:08, 31 August 2009 (MDT)

Underpowered or Overpowered?

Ok, so I have had several people look at this class, the odd thing is, about half of them think it is overpowered, and half of them thinking its underpowered. I want to fix it, because I do like this class a lot, but I have no idea where to go. I feel either way I change it its just going to get bashed. Can i get some input on what can be done? Summerscythe 17:58, 18 July 2009 (MDT)

I think LD has the right idea, when he puts the strider head to head with a creature of equivlent CR. Except he only used one encounter, one monster, and only a tenth level character. I think that if you playtested it with a range of monsters and encounter types, you could get an idea of the under or overpowered-ness of the class.--Morlock Night 18:30, 18 July 2009 (MDT)

<!-- !!!REMOVE THIS FIRST LINE OF THIS PAGE BEFORE YOU SAVE!!! (i.e. the "nowiki" tag) --> == Rating == '''Power - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because It is the master thief. <nowiki>--~~~~

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because It sounds cool. --~~~~

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because It is awesome.--~~~~

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because He can walk through walls! --~~~~

Entry RequirementsSkills,Sneak Attack +2d6

My question is why is the entry requirement Sneak Attack +2d6 also the special you receive at level 4? Logically the entry require requirement should be Sneak attack 1d6 then up to 2d6 at level 4.