Talk:Soul Knight (5e Class)

The Soul Knight is an attempt to offer an alternative to martial Classes. It has a number of varying abilities and features and is designed to serve as a frontline offensive class, with some support abilities. A number of you may wonder why I use con for a number of the abilities, instead of wisdom. To understand let us take a look at what each of the abilities descriptors. First we will start with wisdom.

Wisdom: Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition.

This is how I tune a person is to the world around them. Not to themselves. Furthermore let’s now look at Constitution

Constitution: Constitution measures health, stamina, and vital force.

Vital force is ones Life Force. Their very essence, I choose to interpret this as essence of the soul as well. It is for these definitions that I chose Con over Wisdom.

Thanks, The Soul Knight

Subclasses

Sup, i think will create subclasses for this class. Probably taking some features out of the core class and transforming them in subclass features. Anastacio (talk) 12:47, 4 October 2020 (MDT)

ReSubclasses

I would prefer if you swapped that to an alternate/variant class. I enjoy and appreciate some of the edits made to this class, however you’ve changed a couple things which at its core affect it. Soul infusions are a primary aspect of it and I would prefer if they don’t lose their luster. Furthermore you drastically reduced the Soul Bomb Ability, while simultaneously giving the class four attacks. Which it should not have. With its ability to provide additional support while being a frontline fighter I think for balancing purposes it makes sense to only give it two! I’m excited to see what you come up with, and if I like the subclasses May integrate them Down the road! Thanks so much for your contributions! SoulKnight (talk) 2:34pm GMT-5 , 4 October 2020 (MDT)

First off, thank you for the respectful and polite response. Let me address the points you are making one by one:

Soul Infusion

I'll would never remove soul infusions, it is a dope feature! I didn't remove it, i just changed the formatting, putting it under the "Soul Points feature that i renamed. I changed the cost of the soul infusions to match the "smite" feature, which seems to be what you have used as inspiration.

Subclass

The idea is move some of the abilities that are more flavorful than essential to create diversity for the class.

Extra Attacks

Wops, hehe, this was a copy/pasta error. Fixed!

Soul Bomb

The idea for the reduction in power is to match spellcasting. Soul Bomb, in terms of damage, is a 9th level spell. When you convert a 9th level in spell points, the result is 13 spell points, that's why i limited it. That's why i changed the amount of soul points in the first place, since i was trying to balance this class around half-casters, that gain up to 64 spell points. Using that standard, comparing the soul features to adequate level spells, makes easier to judge balance, don't you think?

Again, thank you for the kind response, and have a great day! Anastacio (talk) 13:47, 4 October 2020 (MDT)

I do very much appreciate your response and addressing what I was discussing! I am new to class making and this is my first one which is part of why I might be a bit protective of it. I hope that we can work through and develop something good together. And if I do have any issues with anything then I can always swap it back *Nervous laughter ensues*

Subclass

I do understand the desire for some subclasses of the Soul Knight as it was broached to me by others I showed the class to; I worry that by creating subclasses that the overall strength and point of the class will fail. But if we- or you- can create those that I feel don’t sacrifice the overall feel of the class then I will happily accept it!

Extra Attacks

I was worried that was part of the overall change and seeing it’s not makes me much happier

Soul Bomb

This ability is one of the most troublesome abilities because thematically I feel like it would be an amazing thing to have. Part of the balancing for it i included so it didn’t sacrifice the power was the self targeting and autodamage. While the point scaling you used makes sense; I feel like it’s lackluster in its ability to do damage. Hence me basing it off the meteor swarm spell.

Soul Infusion

I did loosely base it off of Paladin’s smite, as are a couple of the other features of the class: I wanted the ability to scale with the the user, rather than just be able to use more soul points at the beginning. To me thematically it made more sense to be able to have it be used at varying degrees and still be able to gain power over time, rather than just be used all out from the get go. One other thing of note; part of my purpose in choosing the elemental aspect of a soul was for this ability as well. I feel like that if you’re infusing your soul, it’s base element would make up the rest of your abilities. I also feel like that the nature and what element, including radiant, necrotic, and force, should be allowed by the Gm and Player, and should be fairly unchanging since that is a benefit and drawback of the class. It lacks versatility that classes like Paladin or other spellcasters have.

thanks again for having this discussion with me! SoulKnight (talk) 3:07PM GMT-5 , 4 October 2020 (MDT)

Ideas for the class

Subclasses

I just figured out that this class have some dead levels. The feature "Soul Action" doesn't seems to exist, although it is listed on the table. So, my idea is to use the 7th and 14th level features to give this class subclass, with more one at 3rd level, so i won't have to replace anything. I'll do that later and wait your feedback on it.

Soul Cushion

You've created this feature as a re-flavored version of the evasion feature, and this is a good thing. But, if this class is supposed to use its own soul to block effects that require a saving throw, wouldn't be cool if he could also use his Constitution save to avoid the effect? Because, he's not really dodging the effect, but tanking it with his own vital force. It makes more sense to me.

Soul Infusion

This is not a suggestion, but a question. You mention that the damage type is determined in the 1st level, but the 1st level feature (and i assume that you are talking about the feature soul enlightenment) don't define what is an "element". What kinds of damage type are "elemental"?

Soul Attacks

Why the DC of the soul attacks is STR based? Shouldn't be CON, since you have argued that CON is the measurement of the vital force, or soul?

Anastacio (talk) 18:00, 4 October 2020 (MDT)

In response

Subclasses

I enjoy the thought of a couple subclass features on the dead levels. Part of the reason I didn’t include them is it’s a fairly powerful class and I felt like included subclasses to further strengthen it would put it over the top. My adjustments on it were going to, quite likely, lead me to many of the changes you made, just not as quickly; as mentioned this is my first real class attempt. Now with the rebalancing, as long as it remains rebalanced I don’t see any issues with it!

Soul Cushion

I absolutely love the idea of being able to use evasion for the purposes of ranking but there is a big reason I think it should remain dex. Because the class is proficient in Con saving throws. With a level 20 Soul Knight, and let’s say a 20 con that gives them a +16 to their con save (5 from the mod, 5 from the aura bonus, and 6 from proficiency). Alternatively if a Soul Knight decides to pick up a 20 dex then the most their save will be is an 11, which balances it a bit better. The flavoring is coming from the aura providing the bonus, so if your aura grants the +5 to the dex saving throw it’s making up for your innate lack of dexterity. See what I’m saying?

Soul Infusion

I intentionally left the definition as a vague one. It’s something that should be determined by the GM and player; particularly in smaller or Homebrew campaigns. Perhaps rewording it to damage type of the GM/players choosing would be better.

Soul Attacks

Con is a measure of ones life force, their soul, and I do think it would be a better fit for the attacks but, again this comes back to some balancing tweaks and flavor. Most of those attacks, can be seen as throwing that life force, and throwing it in a specific manner; not just adding it to a weapon or having it erupt from you, the only exception really being the Soul Spike, which I think is just cool af. In recent years I’ve seen a number of players dump STR due to the advantages Dex gives outside of combat while retaining the combat bonuses in certain styles of gameplay. Nothing wrong with this, but pair in the Soul Cushion feature and it gets dicey; Especially with what’s supposed to be a frontline fighter with a d10 for hp. Furthermore I wanted to reward players for not just choosing STR for their Unarmored defense feature; this way that they can get a bonus as they level regardless of what they choose rather than just rushing con, and sacrificing their attack bonuses.

Though as I type this I realize it does sort of balance itself a bit, not much, because of unarmored defense. They sacrifice defenses on the long end of things if they go dex. So perhaps it should be changed, or perhaps it should only be changed for Soul Spike?

Soul Essence

I do like how you set that up and described them as different essences; but I do still think that a souls essence doesn’t really change, except under certain circumstances. Being able to swap it out takes away one of the drawbacks of the class, it’s supposed to limit a player. Perhaps what we can do is look at it like this. Maybe give all the elemental options to the player at the start (Barring Force, Radiant, and Necrotic) and then at level 14 they unlock the option of changing the type only once, and have unlocked the three additional types? This gives them the chance to swap due to the growth of their soul? And still retains the drawback of being stuck with it for so long.

Thanks again! SoulKnight (talk) 22:37 GMT-5 , 4 October 2020 (MDT)

Response to the response (what a dumb title, i don't know how to talk in the talk page, hehehe)

At first, thank for the answers, they made a lot of sense, i can see that, despite this being your first class, you are concerned with balance! Now for the new topics:

Soul Attacks

You basically give the answer i would give you. The unarmored defense would probably force players into the Str and Con build anyways. But i think there are other ways to avoid str as a dump stat. You could give access to heavy armor, making the dump dex a more tasty option.

Subclasses

I noticed that i'm dumb. There are no dead levels. The feature "Soul Action" listed on the table is actually the "Soul Attacks". You probably changed your mind about the name when editing it.

Soul Essence

I don't really think that giving the ability to swap between elements as you gain levels break balance at all. You still will be stuck with 1 damage type from 1-6 and 2 from 7-13, maxing out at 3 at level 14.

In my opinion, this can keep the play-style fresh, giving more options on how to use the same abilities. What could be limited, in my opinion, is the access to a number of powerful damage types.

What i mean by that is, you must have one weak damage type (poison, fire, cold); one medium damage type (lighting, acid); one strong damage type (necrotic, radiant and thunder), and replace one of the strong for force damage if you want. (the "power of the damage types is based on the number of creatures that resist a certain type, that's roughly the damage type "tier list").

Maybe the player can have a "lesser essence" (weak damage types) a "major essence" (strong damage types) and a "quintessence" (the rarest damage types).

And from a narrative standpoint, my idea was like if each type of essence symbolize also an aspect of the essence of the soul knight, and as he grow stronger, he discover more aspects of himself.

Anastacio (talk) 22:04, 4 October 2020 (MDT)

In response (I’ve never done this before at all so I’m not sure if this is how it works :p

Soul attacks

perhaps we should give access to heavy armor? I still worry about just the Con rush, giving access to too much power too early. I think for now I’d like for those to stay at STR until a play test is done to see how it affects the class.

Subclasses

Yeah, I did originally flavor it as Soul actions. I was going to originally include things like a short range teleport within your soul aura and such; but decided it gave the class a bit too much powers and opted for a few different attack types, keeping it a front line martial class.

Soul Essence

So asking for clarification purposes. Are you saying that they unlock one weak, one medium, one strong, and for force I’d say that’s unlocked at level 20 if it’s available do to how powerful it is, and they’re able to freely swap between those four? Or are you saying that they sort of just get an upgrade each time and go from one type to the other? I think either way could be explained by saying that it’s not that the soul is changing but growing, and you come to understand another aspect of it.

Thanks again! SoulKnight (talk) 08:52 GMT-5 , 5 October 2020 (MDT)

Resp.

Soul Attacks

Access to heavy armor IMO would be enough, but i agree that maybe is better to be cautious and playtest it before giving to.

Subclasses

Well, so, this open some possibilities! What if one of the subclasses have access to the soul attacks, and the other is focused on teleporting on the aura? That way, you can have both ideas included on the class (just not both at the same time, since the player will have to choose to go in either direction) and at the same time, this will not change too much the core aspects of the class, since the soul attacks only give new options on how to use the core features.

Soul Essence

"So asking for clarification purposes. Are you saying that they unlock one weak, one medium, one strong, and for force I’d say that’s unlocked at level 20 if it’s available do to how powerful it is, and they’re able to freely swap between those four?" This, but the swapping is not free. I was thinking in something like, you must complete a short or a long rest in order to "change your focus" to another aspect of your essence. That way, this reduce a bit the power of having lots of options, and force the player to plan a bit in advance on how essence he want to have "prepared".

I'm having fun with this, hehe Anastacio (talk) 08:45, 5 October 2020 (MDT)

Resp to the Resp

Subclasses

Perhaps this would be a good idea. Give the player an option between outright attacks and perhaps a teleporting/utility side of things. Leave it as a choice between the two with maybe a balance?

Alternatively what if we perhaps gave the player access to the different abilities, let’s say a total of the aforementioned attacks, and then maybe a choice of four different utility options. They start wwith 2 at Level seven and then at the upgrade points, they gain access to another technique choice, for a total of four? Rather than create a different subclass they can simply Craft the Soul Knight they want. The techniques can’t be swapped out however. What they pick is what they’re stuck with, so they have to think Carefully. It lets the soul knight grow in both technique and power over time, bringing back an aspect of balance to the different technique choices.

Soul Essence

I like it, I think that retains a bit of flexibility but is Still rigid enough to perhaps also give the class a cost of 1/2 the total points to swap it on the fly at level 20?

Thanks again! I’m also having fun with this SoulKnight (talk) 13:01 GMT-5 , 5 October 2020 (MDT)

Resp to resp to resp

Soul Essence

Done. And i find neat giving the ability to change on the fly the type of essence. But maybe 1/2 of the points as price too steep. Maybe something close to 7 points is enough.

Subclasses

I don't think these options are mutually exclusive. We could both give this DIY vibe to the class and add subclasses at the same time.

I was thinking and making the progress of the subclass happen at 3rd, 7th, 14th and 17th, instead of 7th, 14th and 20th. 20th is usually the level you gain your big BAANG feature, and the 17th level is a tier level, perfect for some increase in power.

Anastacio (talk) 14:51, 5 October 2020 (MDT)

Soul Essence

Perhaps a slightly higher cost at like 12 or something?

Subclasses

What did you have in mind for the subclasses?

Soul Action

I updated Soul Attack to now be Soul Action, it has a couple of utility options to inflict status effects rather than just be outright attacks. While they don’t benefit from the bonus of soul infusions, With the exception of one of them, they In my opinion, are all fairly desirable, just needing some balancing perhaps? Please take a look!

SoulKnight (talk) 21:03 GMT-5 , 5 October 2020 (MDT)

Soul Essence

12 is too high, in my opinion. 7 points is equivalent to spending a 5th level spell slot to make the change. Is a fair price in my opinion. That's why is good to use spell slots as a balancing guide, because basically everything in the game is balanced around spells.

Subclasses

I was thinking in one subclass able to project its essence outside its body, creating some kind of "spectral" version of himself. Think of this like a stand (if you watch jojo) or a echo (if you are into critical role stuff).

The other one could be maybe someone capable of sharing some features with the aura, creating some passive features.

What do you think? Anastacio (talk) 20:39, 5 October 2020 (MDT)

Subclasses

I dont know about the Astral projection/Spectral Version; I don’t see anything wrong with the passive subclass, perhaps it could be a subclass that boosts the aura for some passives and then perhaps one that offers more field related abilities. Soul tracking, and the such like that?

SoulKnight (talk) 23:33 GMT-5 , 5 October 2020 (MDT)

Subclasses

Actually, even better idea. The soul attacks should be a subclass feature Imo, they are perfect for that. That way, you have one aggressive subclass, focused on the soul actions/attacks (which is basically the soul knight version of a battle master, a subclass specialized in learning new techniques) and a subclass more defensive/utility, focused in boosting allies with aura and all that jazz. Anastacio (talk) 23:31, 5 October 2020 (MDT)

Subclasses

I’m not opposed to that. Give them class abilities at the same levels of 7, 14, and 17? As long as it’s balanced and we don’t shift any of the other abilities I think that would be cool.

SoulKnight (talk) 01:10 GMT-5 , 7 October 2020 (MDT)

Subclasses

I would add one more level, 3rd (but keeping the feature you already gain on 3rd level, don't worry hehe). That way you have 3rd, 7th, 14th and 17th subclass features (one for each tier of play, when you think about it). Anastacio (talk) 00:39, 7 October 2020 (MDT)

Subclass

I’m alright with that; perhaps the third level feature can be a field related ability of some sort. Keep it minor so as to not unbalance things.

Unwavering Soul

Playing around with a couple of thoughts to replace the level 15 ability, it seems sort of underwhelming for an ability of that level. Take a look at Unwavering Soul, basically your soul/you keeps you in the fight, however you don’t benefit from the Aura bonus, since it’s effectively to hold you at 1hp and keep your Aura out. I think This fits thematically, and is a more appropriate and good ability for them to have. SoulKnight (talk) 09:28 GMT-5 , 7 October 2020 (MDT)

Unwavering Soul

I like it! But in my opinion, it should have a cost in soul points to use it, so this would force the player to plan his expenditure of soul points. And probably, not a cheap cost. Something around 9-10 soul points at least. Anastacio (talk) 11:35, 7 October 2020 (MDT)

Unwavering Soul

Perhaps the first time is free every time after that it costs 10 to use? Gives players the ability to plan, but sorta have a get outta jail free card as well should they Run into an enemy that was tougher than expected.

Brave Soul

I think you should move the irresistible challenge to the caring soul. I’m also wondering if the level 3 feature should be changed to having Soul Points restored on a short rest, rather than hit points? I also think that giving this class less features might also be alright. Keep in mind that the techniques are effectively a feature in and of themselves; I don’t view them as spells or such; and with the flexibility it offers, we can afford to pass on a 1 or 2 features or shift them or something.

Caring Soul

It seems to me like this is lacking a bit at the moment. The ability to prevent death is great, but compared to the flexibility of Brave soul It’s lacking. Perhaps we should reduce either the number of techniques brave soul gets, make the techniques a thing that’s shared and reduce the number that they get, also not opposed to this, or buff the Caring soul a good bit. I think that if we do this it’ll be perfect.

SoulKnight (talk) 19:13 GMT-5 , 7 October 2020 (MDT)

Unwavering Soul

That's a good idea!

Brave Soul

Humm, i don't know. It fits thematically with the warrior subclass in my opinion. I wouldn't give this class more soul points, if i was you, this class have already plenty of power, and more resources could really tip the balance scale. Oh, i don't think on the soul actions as spells, but spells are the guideline to balance basically every feature in the game. From battlemaster maneuvers to simple class features (as per that Modifying Classes article from WoTC). I think we can keep the features as they are, but i would make some calculations later to see if the damage is appropriated to the cost and levels.

Caring Soul

Oh, it is totally lacking, hehe. I'll give more abilities as i get new ideas, but it is not ready yet, don't worry. I don't like the idea of the techniques for the Caring Soul, because they are the defining characteristic of the Brave Soul, and this removes it from its individuality. Caring Soul is less about damage dealing and boosting combat, and more about helping and inspiring allies. The main idea is that one subclass should be full of options and one should be more simple and straightforward, with less options. The brave soul is the many options one and the caring soul is the low option one.

Naming

I hate the names i gave for those subclasses. For now, they are just placeholder names, if you have better names, please change, hehe.

Anastacio (talk) 18:39, 7 October 2020 (MDT)

Damage (Soul Actions)

Actually at a cursory look, the damage for most of the abilities could probably be bumped. When looking at the variant spell point rules it’s noted that a 3rd level spell is roughly five points. Fire ball is a 3rd level spell and does 6d8 damage which averages out to like 27 I think. The max damage these do prior to infusions is 4d10 and all cost more. 4d10 averages out to less average damage at 22. So they can probably be buffed though I’m not sure to what amount. The soul infusion actually effectively is just raising the spell slot of the attack so that’s fairly balanced all things considered.

Names

I’ll try to come up with a couple of names. Perhaps it can be like “Soul Warrior” and “Soul Saint?” Perhaps rather than different essences, it’s simply different ways to use your soul? Ferret schools of combat/knighthoods?

I’m really happy that this is coming along and is seemingly quite balanced all things considered. I’m excited for us to have a finished product and am really thankful you took an interest and decided to help me with this!

SoulKnight (talk) 23:13 GMT-5 , 7 October 2020 (MDT)

Damage (Soul Actions)

I was intending to do some math because of the levels you are intending to gain and because the unconventionally large range. I don't believe it is overpowered also, if i do it, is just to make sure, and to make sure that the points are the right amount.

Names

To be sincere, i think we should dumb down the word soul a bit, hehe. There's to much soul in the names of this class already. My idea, as far as lore goes, was that each subclass is what you really are on the inside, your true self or something like that.

This class is coming up great! If you or someone you know playtest it, please post the results here! I'll do the same. Anastacio (talk) 12:27, 9 October 2020 (MDT)

Damage (Soul

I should clarify. I do not believe it’s overpowered. I think it’s Underpowered. Either the costs should be reduced or the damage increases slightly perhaps? Though stopping to think about the empowered range helps balance the damage. More enemies are hurt as opposed to more damage to said enemies.

Names

Yeah, I can see what you mean. I’ll try to come up with another name for it! And please let me know the results of what you find and I shall Do the same!

Hit Die

It was pointed out to me that the class has a d10, and with it focusing so heavily on Con should probably have a D8 or D6. I think a D6 is acceptable.

Soul Points

I was looking at the table and realized that it doesn’t follow a super linear progression. I think we should adjust it so that it follows a pattern of effectively equal increases with level. This way there isn’t major jumps in power.

SoulKnight (talk) 14:31 GMT-5 , 8 October 2020 (MDT)

Hit Die

Do you think that nerfing this class to a d6 is really necessary? This is a great damage dealer, for sure, but a d8 seems enough to me.

Soul Points

It is not supposed to be linear. The soul points on this manner are taken straight up from the spell points variant rule on the DMG for half casters. To me at least, using that rule make WAY easier to balance the features, since you have something in the official rules to compare your abilities too. Anastacio (talk) 16:56, 10 October 2020 (MDT)

Hit Die

I Do. Most classes if you stop and think about it have maybe a +3 modifier to their Con. The exception being maybe Fighter and Barb. When you take into consideration the fact that this class is gonna be a Con Focused class, and will likely have HP prioritized, plus the very strong combination of STR + Con for the unarmored defense. I think dropping it to a D6 is acceptable. It’ll still have 180HP at level 20 which is far more than most D6 Classes. We can play test it with this, and make an adjustment accordingly.

SoulKnight (talk) 22:00 GMT-5 , 8 October 2020 (MDT)

Hit Die

I think your point is a valid one. However, you can compare this with, for example, the Hexblade. the hexblade warlock can focus on only two features and get both to +5 modifier, while keeping a AC of at least 17 (and this using the standard array), while retaining access to spells ranging from 6th to 9th level and an possible extra attack on top of that. I do agree that a d10 is too much, but maybe giving a d6 is far too low. But, i agree that all of this speculation should be put to test.

Purifying Aura

Curing poison is a fairly "low tier" power to need a DC to accomplish. So, i just gave it a very low cost and made it automatic. About the curses, there are no rules i know in raw to end the curse on a cursed object, so i brought the feature close to the things you can already accomplish with the official rules, bring the soul cost a bit down to be comparable with the "remove curse" spell.

Soul Cover

Spending 1 soul each turn just to keep this resistance active seems very expensive to me. At 17th level, it makes sense to have this effect active for longer periods. Is basically what the most underpowered class in the game, the 4 element monk, can accomplish with stoneskin. Also, i scaled up the other features accordingly with this improvement.

Anastacio (talk) 23:00, 10 October 2020 (MDT)

Bound to Live

I don’t think it should be allowed to target the Soul Knight. If done, then it defeats the purpose of the unwavering soul feature and effectively grants a better alternative than it for the Player.

SoulKnight (talk) 13:10 GMT-5 , 13 October 2020 (MDT)

Playtesting Changes

After some extensive plate sting a number of small but important changes are taking place within the Class; First, Heavy armor is no longer a proficiency granted to the class, this helps make it more MAD regarding Dex, This was Largely a non-issue for most campaigns, however in certain instances this did allow the class to have a higher advantage over other frontline fighters due to the Battle Abilities of the Soul Actions, as such the additional proficiency of Heavy armor is now included for Soul Saints. Next it will be noted that the Soul Saint Class received two changes, first to its ability to heal; this was previously a bonus action, and now changed to a a full action; the reason for this change has to die with the range at which another could be healed, and still allow the Soul Knight to attack with its full action; this gave it a unique advantage over the Paladin in this specific regard, particularly since the Paladin’s bonus action heal is based on touch, requiring them to either dive head first into the combat or retreat from their frontlines. The next Change to note was that the Soul Saint’s other ability was buffed to act essentially as a Deathward. This change was implemented to allow the Saint to have a better ability to keep its Ally’s alive, and since during play testing the support role it should have been filling was largely falling short, giving it a minor buff to keep them alive from instant kill effects such as PWK. The class has been tested pretty extensively at All levels of Play, it Largely is outperformed still by the paladin in single combat, however does slightly better in group conflicts with the soul Actions being able to dole out damage with some minor support roles still being present. The Soul Saint as a support role largely falls short in a number of aspects compared to some other classes, but not in so much as it’s a bad one in conjunction with its main frontline capabilities still being on display.

SoulKnight (talk) 18:37 GMT-5 , 22 March 2023 (MDT)