Talk:Sahuagin (5e Race)

This is lame. I'm going to make it not lame.--Dr Roach (talk) 14:18, 1 August 2017 (MDT)

Musicus Rating

Musicus Meter Score: 5

This race has a score of 5 according to the Musicus Meter race guidelines. With this metric, first-party races' scores range from 4.5 to 8. This is a guideline, not a rule, and it's important to use your own judgment alongside this scoring.

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I don't really agree with the changes that were pushed in both in mechanics and lore for the sake of the added class. If you want to make a composite class-race, they would usually be on the same page. My original intention was not to make a sahuagin totally like that of the lore connected with traditional DnD sahuagin. It was supposed to be more standalone. ConcealedLight had gone over its balance previously and while above the usual 5-6 range, it is still acceptable within the Musicus meter (which I don't think has been updated sometimes, same as with the Marasmusine meter). So I think this current race is entirely different and should be ported over to the racial class page.--Yanied (talk) 13:44, 13 July 2024 (MDT)

I can't think of any major lore changes I made, most of it was just moving things from section to section to make a clearer biology, history, and society section, and any other changes were either for the sake of a professional tone or porting information over from 5e's MM. Additionally, I don't consider sahuagin raider to be a composite class since it isn't intended to be baked into the race itself; it's an option a player can access as a sahuagin, but at no point do they necessarily have to, just like any other racial class. As for this race being a standalone, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but shouldn't a race with the name and description of a D&D race be that race and a standalone race not have those? As for the removed features, I've restored Shark Telepathy (I was unsure of removing it at the time and reading sea elf's Friend of the Sea changed my mind), but I disagree with the mechanics of Blood in the Water and Shark Frenzy, since 5e already has precedent for how these concepts are represented mechanically within the sahuagin stat blocks, and introducing new mechanics for the same concept ultimately muddles the consistency and simplicity of the game.--Ref3rence (talk) 14:42, 13 July 2024 (MDT)

Your edit summary reads "allowing these traits to exist in their full glory in the attached racial class", which to me sounds like how people use racial composite classes to play monsters to their fullest potential within the balances of 5e. That is one method of balance on the long run. However, there is another method, which is just paring down the monster as a race to be played out the gate, which is a bit of what my edits were originally. This is reflected in some other monster race designs, particularly on this site, I think.

On the lore, aside from the parts clearly related to the class, it's much more overtly of FR lore, while the original writing does not mention their relations with sea elves or the shark god of FR. Those are very explicit ties of lore, and same is present in the class added at the bottom.

On mechanics, aside from shark telepathy, the two other traits of blood in the water and shark frenzy were named differently and not supposed to hearken to the original block (hence my intention of also deviating from the typical FR sahuagin!). Sahuagin also exist in other medias like FF, where, in some games, they are more shark like, hence the idea of smelling and tracking blood. The lizardfolk's hungry jaws trait was also an insert from that shark inspiration. I don't really think they complicate the game as much as you claim (hungry jaws is official wording, and blood in the water is based a bit off ribbon-wording ideas from 5e backgrounds).

So there is indeed a significant change, I think, from the original page. And I do think the new page should be made separate. Oh, and as for the "standalone" part I guess I meant more that it has the idea of the race without a class to augment it (along with some miscellaneous additions from other places I've glimpsed sahuagin that differ from the DnD part).--Yanied (talk) 19:59, 13 July 2024 (MDT)

I was unaware of the sahuagin's presence in Final Fantasy, I had assumed that had been a TSR original (though I guess with what I've seen regarding mages between Dragonlance and the older FF games it's not fully out of the question, but I digress). I suppose it's not the worst thing in the world to have two sahuagin pages (I am trying to make the 14th vampire class on this wiki after all), though it will be on its own race page since apparently we don't keep composite classes on a single page anymore (see GD and Coaldstone's most recent edits of Frost Demon (5e Race)).--Ref3rence (talk) 08:19, 16 July 2024 (MDT)

Thanks. And that is very odd. I quite like composite race+class together since it's less linking. Like how Maras fixed up this page.--Yanied (talk) 20:18, 16 July 2024 (MDT)