Talk:Nökken (5e Race)

This race is complete. In reference to the recent change that was undone, Nökken are shadows. They are not shadows only while in the dark. They are meant to see in all darkness, not just like darkvision. Also, they are always at a disadvantage when in bright light which is why they have vulnerability to radiant damage and disadvantage to attacks while in bright light. However, they get resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage because they are less solid. Zibby (talk) 23:06, 18 June 2018 (MDT)

Balance has been dealt with, as their shape now must remain humanoid and they cannot fly. Changing shape several times each day will only get you so far when everyone can still see you for what you are. Resistance to non-magical damage is easily overcome (as easy as a goblin wielding a torch instead of a club), and doubly so if they are dealt radiant damage. Nökken have disadvantage in bright light, which several spells can create, and being in natural daylight and traveling will be hellish for them. Simply have a human enemy and a low level mage that makes them be able to see, and the nökken is suddenly at a disadvantage at night, too. If you feel that the shape changing is overpowered, I suggest you refer to the design disclaimer banner which states that this race can change shape, and is meant to provide an experience that is somewhat outside of the normal scope of D&D. Oh, and as for the formatting, this is a race. It is formatted as a race. Zibby (talk) 03:07, 22 June 2018 (MDT)

Discussion

Hey there Zibby! I've reviewed the first page of the race history and read over the race and this talk page. I'm going to have good news and bad news for you, hopefully the later isn't too bad.

• Maitenance Templates
  • needsbalance-necessary and I'll explain later, and I'll add trait wording is not a balance issue though is commonly and mistakenly placed here.
  • wikify-"setting templates" help let others know what something is designed for because they're big. The note at the bottom of the page I missed until I went line by line over the traits. I'd ask for help creating a template specific to the Voidhaven setting. I can try to find examples of what I mean if you'd like as well. Their necessity I disagree though.
  • stub-quality content on the wiki is a goal. And part of that is fluff/lore/information/etc. Nokken has barely anything letting users know what this race is or is about. So when you say the page is complete, it is HUGE RED flag for other users. Featured Articles on this site should have three paragraphs with minimum three full, complex, complete sentences. My feelings are that non featured articles can easily do this and featured ones have more. The preload gives you three topics to write about conveintely enough so as long as you fill out those areas with some flavor, you should be okay after that. It would help if you didn't meet bare minimum *hint hint* lol
  • wording is a minor thing. everyone makes mistakes and you never know who will help out.
    

• needsbalance - as mentioned I do find some balance issues. Mine are different than others but that's what great about being a community with different opinions so we can have eclectic material!
  • Large Size-I don't like large sizes at all currently but if you are going to use it, then the wiki has developed a variant rule that others agree on. If you use the variant rule, you should still consider the strength being large provides when combined with all traits.
  • Shadowsight- I like but WotC has advised that class features should be avoided. Devil's Sight is an option for Warlocks so I'd be hesistant to use this. Certainly there's exceptions, so I am giving 5e design and philosophy insight.
  • Incorpreal-seems decent but its power is hidden because it is 3 traits combined. The resistances, trance, and sustenance. So it becomes harder for everyone to gauge a races power when this happens. I recommend splitting this up to help assess the strength of the race and assist with balancing it.
  • Photosensitive- this is the same as incorporeal but drawback instead of perk. I'd separate it as well.
  • Assimilate-this is a cool idea but lets compare apples to apples; a background gives at most 2 skills, maybe a tool pro, and maybe one language. This trait allows EIGHT proficiencies. The variant rule you provide should be the standard. It should also be included in the design disclaimer this race deviates from 5e precedent because it doesn't allow a character to select a background. In addition, this trait should be one of the most developed things in the lore/fluff to help explain why this race deviates from precedent.
  • Shapeshift-No. I want shapeshifty races too, and badly. But when you look at a Druid who gets 2 uses even at level 20, I don't care if you get it back after a short rest, it is still only 2 which means very limited. I've seen some talk within our community how to balance an idea like this, and have been wanting more time to tackle it as a community but we haven't. This trait is too vague because D&D 5e has details for shifters and this omits them. This trait needs major attention due to in game effects.
    

Overall, I'd put WIP or Inuse on the page and remove the other templates. Work together to find balance for the race using the talk page. If you're going to allow this vary in size, small to large, then the total package of traits need to be considered. Hopefully this review and advice helps. I look forward to your thoughts on what I've said. Please remember the site goal of having material "most complete, functional, and entertaining". BigShotFancyMan (talk) 08:19, 22 June 2018 (MDT)

Thank you! You have some good points, and I have at least fluffed out why assimilate is a thing. I don't have my book with me, but if i remember right, I started with half elf and replaced things. It should have a similar number of proficiencies/languages/tools as a half elf of any background, which I think is reasonable. I did fix the sight so it doesn't do magical darkness. Once again a WIP and the game I'm testing it is slated to begin, so crunch time.Zibby (talk) 22:04, 22 June 2018 (MDT)

Oh, and toned down shapeshift to 1/2 proficiency and no large size.Zibby (talk) 22:07, 22 June 2018 (MDT)

I hadn't considered race+background=# of proficiencies. I only evaluated a trait that replaced a background. I think it's good to point out that the breakdown for the half-elf/background.

• +2 skills for half-elf and +2 for background=4 skills
• Half-elf no tools, background maybe 1e=1 tool pro
• half-elf 3 langauges, background maybe 1=4 languages.

So yes, I can see where it seems fair to allow this, but the half-elf also gets fewer traits. much fewer once you separate the ones I mentioned. Nokken with it current amount of traits and the strong ones, 8 proficiencies should be avoided. It's great you are willing to compromise on shapeshift, though I am afraid it'll take much more to make it an appropriate trait. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 22:35, 22 June 2018 (MDT)

Well now it just seems like I'm holding on to nothing with the shadowsight, so I guess it would make more sense just to change it to darkvision, since that is usually the prize for not being human. Zibby (talk) 01:24, 23 June 2018 (MDT)

This was just too good to pass up, so I just changed the wording so that the vision is straight backward from normal darkvision, and should make life particularly interesting in the light. I love this option, as it is a plus and minus built into a neat little package. Zibby (talk) 02:11, 23 June 2018 (MDT)

Switched up incorporeal so that you can walk through things as difficult terrain instead of getting the damage resistance. I feel like it gets the point across, but doesn't make the player invincible. Also, with items not passing through, it doesn't let players walk through the wall and back out with the prized quest item and ace the quest. Zibby (talk) 03:35, 23 June 2018 (MDT)

I'm really feeling that the disadvantage on attacks during incorporeal seems balanced, and here is my reasoning: The ability requires a bonus action, and it ends at the end of your turn, so only reaction attacks would be effected by it. At most, you can do this 3 times/day and it's not going to make a huge difference, but it seems appropriate for continuity. Also, it seemed much better than going back to resistance and seems odd to not show the ghosty-ness when it comes to damage. I think I'm happy with the race for now, pending any thoughts/feelings/concerns anyone may have. Zibby (talk) 06:18, 23 June 2018 (MDT)

Shapeshift

Its a discussion I think the wiki needs. So with Zibby actively working to balance their race, the sooner we ballpark this idea the better.
My proposal for this is:

Shapeshift. You can use your action to assume the shape of a humanoid your size. You may use this trait once. You regain use of this trait after you finish a long rest.
You can stay in this shape a number of hours equal to your proficiency bonus. You then revert to your normal form unless you use a bonus action to revert to your normal form. You automatically revert back to your normal form if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die.
While you are transformed the following rules apply:

• Your game statistics stay the same. You do not gain any new forms of movement, proficiencies, or traits of the humanoid.
• Your hit points and hit dice do not change.
• You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can't use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense.

I think this sums up my ideas. I am not saying Nokken could use this version and be playable right away. Rather this would be a good base for races that can shapeshift and the summation of traits be evaluated to determine race balance. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 22:56, 22 June 2018 (MDT)

"As an action, you can polymorph into any humanoid of your size that you have seen, or back into your true form. However, your equipment does not change with you. If you die, you revert to your true form. You retain all of your normal statistics while in this form. You may use this feature once without issue, however, additional uses after the first incur one level of exhaustion. You must complete a long rest to use this trait again without issue."

From the Changeling_(5e_Race) I did some poking on. I think this is the way it should be worded and the extra uses for exhaustion levels work for the changeling and is a flavourful touch. Not sure if it would work for this race.

There is also this from the Doppelganger_(5e_Race): "You may use your action to polymorph into a humanoid of Small or Medium size, or back into your true form. If you choose, it may be a creature you have seen. Your statistics are not changed by this transformation, and any equipment you are wearing or carrying isn't transformed. If you die while polymorphed, you return to your true form." but I think it could use some tightening up as could that race in general since its just a vaguer, stronger version of the first. —ConcealedLight (talk) 23:09, 22 June 2018 (MDT)

Aha! I like the exhaustion, you both make a good argument for a limited number of shifts, but I think I will also reduce the number of shapes. I think the key is that they can only be the shapes of their creators, hence a finite number of forms to choose from. The issue I have with polymorph is that they would have the color of the creature they have shifted into, which I'm trying to avoid. The idea is that they are ALWAYS a shadow, possibly even when effected by magic. Zibby (talk) 23:25, 22 June 2018 (MDT)-oops

I like these options, especially an option to trade exhaustion for more uses, but I don't think they are clear enough though. While it doesn't say you can cast polymorph or reference the spell, I still think another way to say shapechange would be better. Zibby's shadow concerned is easily fixed with trait flavor description. When you return to your true form, does that cause a use? Why doesn't my equipment change with me? My size didn't change. I think it is important to clarify what the statistics are. And I'd remove long rest allows no issue shapeshift. Would make it more important to not be exhausted. Otherwise every day you get a free shapeshift- "hey look at me, I'm exhausted from all that shapeshifting I did yesterday but I can do it no problem today for one time." Also, safe to assume the shapechange lasts indefinitely? I'd rather it did, I limited mine for sake of just in case indefinite is too strong. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 23:40, 22 June 2018 (MDT)

I am trying to stay away from the word "polymorph" because a creature that can change it's own form is a good reason to not have your equipment change with you. If I remember right, polymorph usually changes equipment, which could cause confusion. I feel like it's pretty specific right now, you just need to work with your DM to decide your available shapes. This also allows the DM to lessen the impact that this can cause, or at least plan for it to a degree. If there is a concern that this could be overpowered, this leaves room for the DM to keep this ability within reasonable bounds for their game/world. As it's written, the cost is high and changing from and then back to your true form will leave you exhausted and unable to shift the following day. Zibby (talk) 00:16, 23 June 2018 (MDT)

Also, since I liked the movement speed changing and it seems reasonable for a creature to move at a speed appropriate to it's shape, you keep the movement speed of your true form but your true form can change. This makes it so that you can't just change to something faster and then change back, you have to choose, rest, then use the speed of that shape once it has become your true form (after a long rest).Zibby (talk) 01:07, 23 June 2018 (MDT)

Balance/Build Concept and Summary

Half-elf with an included background was the base for this race. It is important that you include the background when calculating proficiency and balance.

• Ability score increase of +2/+1 is fairly normal across most races, so this seems a given. It is useful that both can be chosen, but not overpowered as many players will pick a race based on the class they are going to play and what race/subrace works well with it.

• Age may be an advantage in some games, but I've never really had it come up as an issue, I feel like this is mostly for flavor.

• Alignment is what it is.

• Size can be from small to medium, which shouldn't cause any particular imbalance (large used to be an option)

• Speed increased by 5 from whatever race's form you have taken is a rather nice thing, but given some of the other drawbacks, I think this isn't huge.

• Shadowsight makes the player opposite from what most other characters are. They can see in the dark and not well at all in bright light. This is both good and bad, making dungeons potentially easier while making simple travel to and from places in the world considerably more complicated. I feel like this will even out and is a place where the DM can cause some trouble for the player for balance/fairness/character development.

• Incorporeal is a solid bonus, with considerable utility when it comes to adventuring.

• Photosensitive is a drawback in two ways, as most races don't have a vulnerability and requiring rest to be in dim or darker lighting can make the player lose rest with little effort. The player may have to work harder to get rest and plan ahead more than other races.

• Assimilate replaces your background and racial proficiency, and gives a similar number of proficiency options as a half-elf with an included background.

• Shapeshift can be quite useful, but it requires a hefty cost (exhaustion) if you want to use it with any sort of regularity.

• Living Essense is mostly for continuity, although it can definitely save you a headache when is comes to sustenance. This could be a big thing in some games and a smaller thing in others.

• Languages: See Assimilate.

In summary, the number of traits that are straight bonuses for the nökken are similar to that of the half-elf, but some may be slightly higher powered. That said, the half-elf does not have a damage vulnerability, which the nökken does. This is a huge thing that can cause serious trouble for the player and is an open door for balance/control for the DM. Be careful not to give the player so many radiant damage dealers that they become a glass cannon unnecessarily. Having a player of this race may be more work for the DM to balance, but allowing for balance controls in the form of damage and lighting feels appropriate for a race that pushes the envelope and our current expectations of what 5e is and how it behaves. Zibby (talk) 06:18, 24 June 2018 (MDT)

Now that 5e has an actual shapeshifting base race in the rules, I think it would be acceptable to change the shapeshift ability to what the changeling has, but with some flavorful differences. Zibby (talk) 18:50, 1 November 2018 (MDT)

Image Requested

So I see the imageneeded tag and I'm just gonna insert one I think appropriate with the source. Just announcing it as a courtesy--Yanied (talk) 22:14, 22 September 2019 (MDT)