Talk:Mystic Knight (5e Class)

Hey Everyone!

So, I've finally got Mystic Knight in a good position where I am ready to start collecting feedback. I'm actually going to convert this to a proper homebrew template sometime this year so I am hoping to further refine this class before then. Please let me know if you have any questions, comments, or concerns so that I can help make this interesting and fun to play.

JennaBradford (talk) 09:21, 14 February 2018 (MST)

So, I got bored and started parsing out damage potential against other classes of similar capability. Due to Mystic Knight's damage potential to resource investment is way out of balance by comparison to other classes with Nova potential, Runic Wreath and Improved Runic Wreath have had their damage reduced by 1 die type (from d6 to d4 and from d8 to d6 respectfully). This still greatly enhances what their capable of but holds them in line with other classes. Rune Fencers still edge out basically every other class with their potential for consistent nova damage but I feel like this is offset due to Quicken Arts intrinsically blocking out a player's ability to use defensive reaction spells such as Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Blade Ward, or Resistance.

JennaBradford (talk) 10:00, 15 February 2018 (MST)

So... during today's continued Number-Crunch-A-Thon, I found another glaring issue. Under the right circumstances, it is possible for Mystic Knight to exceed the freakishly high AC of 25. I'm now forced to rethink some features of this class to help prevent this from being a thing. I have a few ideas for how I could go about doing this, but this is touchy subject. On the one hand, having a high AC is the end-goal for pretty much every player and it is an admirable goal. However, on the other hand, where is the balance in that? If the AC was topping out around 20, I probably wouldn't consider this too much of an issue but this entirely different. The dream of many tanky characters to break 25 and their classes and builds reflect that. This is entirely differently. We're talking about a mage that isn't a tank. They shouldn't have the potential to rival a tank without a build focused on being one.

So, I'm left with three options on the table.

Option 1: Remove and replace Defensive Instinct. This will remove the Intelligence bonus to AC and thus bring the AC down to around 22 if someone REALLY wanted to spec for AC. This is still VERY high for a mage, but it is competitive for a front-line unit.

Option 2: Remove and replace Defensive Instinct AND make this part of the Shield Warden Archetype. This would involve some retooling of the class but it would allow Mystic Knight to both live up to its namesake and become a different kind of tank. It'd make for a nice juxtaposition with Rune Fencer.

Option 3: Remove and replace Defensive Instinct and make a whole new Archetype focused on being a tank. This is actually where I am leaning. If people really want to tank, I say let them tank, but this tank NEEDS to be different. It has to stand apart from your Fighters, Paladins, and Barbarians or even those special kinds of Monks.

I'm going to mull this over for awhile and see what I can come up with. Regardless, Defensive Instinct has to go. It breaks what this class should be able to do.

JennaBradford (talk) 15:26, 15 February 2018 (MST)

Hey JennaBradford,

I think the third option is the best option (then again i always love more options). Something else is to give a static plus 1 to AC at 5th level, that way it is something other than a increase to spell level. Later at 13th level, bump it to a plus 2 to AC, and if feeling really generous a plus 3 at 17th level. But keep the specific criteria of what it is currently. Joker123

Hey Joker123,

I spend some time today thinking about how to go about making a unique tank archetype. I actually came up with some interesting mechanics for it by introducing the ability for Mystic Knights to use shields. In this case, they could spend AP to manifest a force shield that they could wield. Unfortunately, I couldn't come up with enough to flesh out a whole archetype using this idea but it COULD eventually happen. It's just not ready yet. While taking a break from it, I went back and made some changes to Shield Warden that make it into a "Tanky Healer" archetype by changing Phalanx to an Aura that you spend AP to activate, removing their counterspell/dispel magic effect, and adding Defensive Instinct (Now called Combat Augmentation) at 15th level. I'm actually pretty happy with the tweaks because it definitely stands out as a powerful option for someone to play a different kind of healer.

I'm going to keep developing this other archetype. I think there is something amazing here with this whole "Soul Shield" mechanic. It may end up stealing the INT bonus to AC from Shield Wardens at some point, but for now, I'm going to leave it with the Shield Wardens. With their abilities being what they are, it is a powerful trump card to help them stand apart from other healer/support archetypes.

JennaBradford (talk) 21:58, 16 February 2018 (MST)

Hey JennaBradford,

I'm curious behind the logic of Limiter Release. It's a pretty intense looking buff, but the short duration and STEEP penalty make it seem weak for a capstone ability to me. Have you considered a different sort of ability for that capstone, something akin to the level 20 Paladin abilities to name an example? Or is the sort of thing Limiter Release does actually worth the crippling downside? -TheMagnusIgnis

Hey TheMagusIgnis,

When I originally started working on this, I was attempting to base some of its basic aspects on some published 3.0 Third Party Material. In that material, every class got a "Limit Break" ability which was very powerful but usable only once per day. After several revisions and the 1st attempt at class building left the whole ability feeling kinda meh, I decided to ramp things up a bit and see where things could go. I decided to embrace the idea of "breaking limits" almost a bit too literally when I came up with the current version of Limiter Release.

In terms of a single ability, Limiter Release is far too powerful to exist without some kind of downside. It effectively gives you haste, Advantage on everything, removes the costs to use your abilities, and grants you some new ones. It definitely captures the idea of breaking your physical limits. Even though we're talking about level 20, I was very concerned about players abusing it, specifically anyone playing as a Rune Fencer. I'm going to throw out some of the original data I put together to show why I had to tweak abilities like Runic Wreath. The following assuming using a +3 Longsword with 20 Strength and 20 Intelligence. It will also assume a 3rd Level Fireball was cast using a 5th level Spell Slot.

Quicken Arts to cast 5th Level Fireball: 10d6 (Average 40). This activates Runic Wreath, adding 5d8 Damage to all Melee Attacks until end of turn

Attack Action:

Attack Roll: (Best of 2d20) + Prof Bonus (+6) + Str Bonus (+5) + Int Bonus (+5) + Magic Bonus (+3) = (Best of 2d20) + 19

Damage per hit: 1d8 + 5d8 Fire + 8 (Average 38)

Number of Attacks per Action: 2

Number of Actions per Turn: 2

Average Damage per Full Attack Action: 192

While in effect, a level 20 Rune Fencer had the potential to singlehandedly deal almost 200 damage in one round. In the example, I use Fireball but it is just as likely they could use any spell that requires an attack action like Chromatic Orb (which is a personal favorite of mine and would deal 7d8 Damage for an average of 35 damage without a save using an attack roll bonus of +11 and only lose 5 damage on average). To ensure this couldn't allow it to outdamage some of the other classes, I decided to run these same tests using a level 20 Berserker Barbarian and a level 20 Oathbreaker Paladin. Both will assume max stats core stats and +3 weapons, Greataxe for the Barbarian, and a Glaive for the Paladin. The Paladin will be using the Dueling Fighting Style

Berserker Barbarian:

Attack Roll (Reckless; Best of 2d20) + Prof Bonus (+6) + Str Bonus (+7) + Magic Bonus (+3) = (Best of 2d20) + 16

Damage per hit: 1d12 + 14 (Average 21)

Number of Attacks per action: 2

Number of Bonus Attack Actions per round: 1

Average Damage per Full Attack Action: 63

Oathbreaker Paladin:

Attack Roll: 1d20 + Prof Bonus (+6) + Str Bonus (+5) + Magic Bonus (+3) = 1d20 + 14

Damage per Hit (Smiting each hit using the highest available spell slots): 1d10 + 15 + 6d8 (Improved Divine Smite, 5th Level Spell) (Average 51)

Number of Attacks per Action: 2

Number of Bonus Attack Actions per round: 1

Damage for Bonus Attack Action: 3d10 + 5 (Average 23)

Average Damage per Full Attack Action: 125

Now, let's take a look at the post-adjustment data against the Berserker and Oathbreaker.

Quicken Arts to cast 5th Level Fireball: 10d6 (Average 40). This activates Runic Wreath, adding 5d6 Fire Damage to all Melee Attacks until end of turn

Attack Action:

Attack Roll: (Best of 2d20) + Prof Bonus (+6) + Str Bonus (+5) + Int Bonus (+5) + Magic Bonus (+3) = (Best of 2d20) + 19

Damage per hit: 1d8 + 5d6 Fire + 8 (Average 37)

Number of Attacks per Action: 2

Number of Actions per turn: 2

Average Damage per Full Attack Action: 188

As you can see, Rune Fencer just continues to blow everything out of the water in terms of potential. Even considering that Limiter Release is a once per long rest ability like most capstones, its potential is completely beyond anything they are capable of. The only way to even remotely balance it was to ensure that it carried a harsh penalty for using it, forcing a player to strongly consider when it would be appropriate to use. In this regard, it is completely unlike any other Capstone ability and it was kind of intended to be different. After all, the candle that burns twice as bright lasts half as long. While most capstone abilities last 1 minute (10 rounds), Limiter Release only lasts for 3.

I'll be completely honest, though. I'm actually planning to rework their capstone ability. The more I look at it, the more I realize how unbalanced it is. I had a few "Plan B" capstone effects stashed away that I'm going to tweak a bit and then come back to revisit it. I apologize for the data dump but I felt it was necessary for explaining why Limiter Release needed such a big downside.

JennaBradford (talk) 08:10, 17 February 2018 (MST)

So, after conferencing with a group of trusted friend about Limiter Release, I decided to revert it to its original effect. This expands the utility of what Limiter Release can do while addressing the Extra Action concern that was making things unbalanced. The intent behind this chance was to make Limiter Release about the user maximizing their awareness and reflexes instead of maximizing their potential damage/healing. This also puts the ability on par with other capstone abilities. Please let me know what you think.

JennaBradford (talk) 09:45, 17 February 2018 (MST)

Hey JennaBradford,

I like the look of the updated Limiter Release, thought I think you may have missed one little detail: How long does it last? I don't see a duration on it. -TheMagnusIgnis

Whoops. I didn't realize I didn't put it back in. The duration is 1 minute.

JennaBradford (talk) 14:22, 17 February 2018 (MST)

So, it has been brought to my attention that the Rune Fencer's Adept Amateur ability was VERY underwhelming and worked counter to the design of the class. As such, I have removed it and replaced with a pseudo-defensive skill named Arcane Regeneration. This new ability provides a form of passive healing whenever the Rune Fencer casts magic, regardless of how it was cast. The healing isn't hugely significant, but given the frequency at which it can be triggered, it ends up being a very powerful option for a front-line class. Please let me know your thoughts on this new ability because it may require further tuning or replacement.

JennaBradford (talk) 17:32, 17 February 2018 (MST)

Hey JennaBradford,

Arcane Regeneration seems handy, though I rather liked Adept Amateur on paper if only as a way to trigger Runic Wreath and save your spells for something tougher(like the necromancer controlling the skeleton you're cutting down, for example). You could in theory roll its old effect, albeit weaker(adds half the Rune Fencer's prof. bonus to damage via Runic Wreath if an evocation cantrip is cast via Quicken Arts?), into Runic Wreath, but I'm no expert on how that'd make it perform numbers-wise. Also you forgot to switch the instance of 'Shield Warden' under The Forward Path part of the core class abilities description to 'Guardian'. -TheMagnusIgnis

Hey TheMagusIngis,

I liked Adept Amateur but it just didn't work as a 15th level ability. That being said, Runic Wreath has been changed (slightly), so that it triggers on any evocation spell regardless of levels. Basically, Adept Amateur is now included in Runic Wreath.

Also, I fixed that instance of Shield Warden. Sorry about that!

JennaBradford (talk) 07:12, 20 February 2018 (MST)

New Revision in the Works

Hey everyone!

So, I've started to get feedback from other areas and based on what I am hearing, I'm going to be making some rather significant changes to Mystic Knight in the near future. One of the most common things I am hearing is that Mystic Knight is just a different take of Eldritch Knight and should be remade into an archetype for Sorcerer since it borrows much from them. At first, this news was really upsetting because I thought I built in enough distance between Mystic Knight and other classes/archetypes so that it wouldn't have those parallels made. After reviewing my own works, I have come to accept that they are correct and that Mystic Knight isn't unique enough to be its own class. I'm not giving up, though. It just means I missed the target.

I've decided to rework some core aspects of Mystic Knight and its archetypes to fit a slightly different take on the same thing. The flavor of the class won't be changing but its mechanics are in for a substantial overhaul. For those of you who remember, I toyed around with the idea of having an archetype manifesting a shield with their will. Well, I'm going to build on that and make that the heart of Mystic Knight instead. To that end, this is going to become a Rune-based class. These runes are going to drastically alter and/or change how you think about weapons and armor. I'm honestly pretty excited because there is a lot of mechanics I had left over from earlier designs that I can now build the class around. I hope everyone will find these changes exciting and interesting.

JennaBradford (talk) 10:17, 4 March 2018 (MST)

Hey Everyone,

I've had some time to rework some of the ideas that are coming in this new revision. I wanted to go over some of the more core aspects of these changes to start collecting feedback while I continue to refine things prior to the update. For starters, the class is going to see a significant overhaul to their weapons and saves. Mystic Knight's saves are changing to Wisdom and Intelligence. This was done to help them fall in line with other classes who have 1 Common Save (Dex, Con, Wis) and 1 Uncommon Save (Str, Int, Cha). This change is pretty minor but it does help the class to feel more like a mage.

With the changes to saves, I am also removing the Mystic Knight's ability to use Martial Weapons. This is because the main mechanic of the class is changing and that change meant a change to what weapons they could use. In exchange, they are getting access to a new type of weapon called a Runic Weapon. Think of this as being similar to how Kensei weapons work. The main difference here is how those Runic Weapons are obtained.

In the update, Mystic Knights will be getting a new 1st Level ability called Runeforging. With this, a Mystic Knight etches magical runes into a simple weapon. This causes them to be treated as magical weapons at all times and become a Runic Weapon. This is important because the upcoming changes directly revolve around the use of Runic Weapons in an attempt to keep the class focus on the use of these runes.

At 2nd level, Mystic Knights are getting a new ability called Awaken Rune. What this feature is going to do is transform a simple weapon into a martial one while also applying an effect similar to that of cantrip "Shillelagh". You will get to pick the martial weapon your simple weapon transforms into. The transformation can be ended at will or when you are disarmed. Once you choose what your weapon turns into, that transformation is permanently set so the next time you use Awaken Rune with that weapon, it will turn into that martial weapon again. This allows the class to take on an entirely different feel from that of Eldritch Knight or Bladesinger.

There are going to several new abilities revolving around the mechanic of Runeforging. I'm always open to new ideas for effects, so if you have an idea for a Rune feature, let me know.

JennaBradford (talk) 08:37, 6 March 2018 (MST)

Hi all,

It's been a little bit since my last status update. The upcoming revision is proving to be extremely difficult to work with as I continue to try and distance Mystic Knight from other spellcasters/partial spellcasters. Thankfully, the move to a rune-based system actually makes the process somewhat easier, but it is actually proving to be difficult to figure out when class features should be gained and what works better as being unique to an Archetype and what works better as part of the base class. I actually moved right back to square one by temporarily scrapping the Archetypes so I can focus on getting the base class in a place where those archetypes can actually mean something.

That being said, I want to discuss some more of the upcoming changes since I've actually settled upon a simple, effective, and fundamental mechanic to base the class around. With the focus of the class changing to the use of Runes and the Runeforging mechanic, I needed a method to help harmonize the martial and magical aspects of this class. What I've settled on is a combat mechanic that involves the use of "Rune Charges". In the test version, I'm calling these Power Charges but that is language subject to change.

When you use a Runic Weapon as an Arcane Focus for a spell, your Runic Weapon acquires Runic Charges equal to the level of the spell that was cast. You can have a number of Runic Charges equal to your Intelligence Modifier. These Runic Charges serve as a foundation for a series of "Techniques" that are granted by adding additional runes to your Runic Weapon. Each new rune adds 2 Techniques and they have varying effects, usually two different applications of the same basic idea. I intend to have 3 unique new Runes for Mystic Knights to forge, but at the moment, I only have 2 to really talk about: Retaining Rune and Sustaining Rune. Again, the names are subject to change, but their effects are set.

Retaining Rune is intended to be a replacement/substitute for Clear Mind, which borrowed too heavily from a Wizard Feature with the same effect. Retaining Rune is the first extra Rune you unlock and it unlocks your ability to start accumulating Runic Charges. It also unlocks your first two techniques: Amplify and Discharge. Amplify lets you consume Runic Charges to make a successful melee attack deal extra force damage. Discharge lets consume Runic Charges to allow you cast a spell as a bonus action using Runic Charges instead of a spell slot.

On paper, Amplify is strong but not overpowered. On the reverse side, Discharge has the potential to be a game-changing technique. If you use it effectively, it has the potential to double your spell slots across all levels. That being said, this is also why I wanted players to have access to several unique techniques that can draw on Runic Charges. You could use your Runic Charges to double your spell slots OR you could use it to be stronger in combat OR keep yourself alive with the effects of Sustaining Rune.

Sustaining Rune is a defensive themed extra rune that adds two defensive techniques: Revitalize and Overchannel. Revitalize lets you consume Runic Charges to heal yourself as an action but only if your HP is at less than half your maximum. Overchannel lets you use your Reaction to consume Runic Charges and grant yourself Temporary HP if you are sustaining damage from an attack.

Here again, these techniques seem like they might be too strong, but the math itself works out so that it really isn't. Overchannel is intended to help you mitigate an attack you feel might be too dangerous to take directly like a Dragon's Breath Attack or a critical hit while Revitalize is intended to help you get back into the fight after taking a lot of damage. Revitalize still needs some tweaking because I need to avoid this having parallels to the Second Wind Fighter feature, but limiting to being both a full action and to when your HP is at less than half help to keep those parallels as distant as possible.

I still need time to consider what the last rune is going to end up being, but I have some thoughts I need to work out.

Lastly, I have decided to completely eliminate Limiter Release in favor of a different kind of Capstone ability. Call it cheating and/or copying but the new in-the-works Capstone ability is going to increase your Intelligence (to what extent is still being theorized, probably +4 because of how Intelligence plays into... well, literally everything about the class) and do something kinda nuts for a capstone on a half-spellcaster class: Allow you to cast spells of levels higher than 5th! ...assuming you have the resources for it. I even have a name for the new capstone already: Rune of Enlightenment.

At my current pace, I figure the next revision will be ready for showcase around the start of April. I hope you're looking forward to it!

JennaBradford (talk) 02:31, 15 March 2018 (MDT)

So, I realized someone was making unauthorized edits to Mystic Knight. I reverted the changes not because I didn't like what the effects did (although one addition was very OP) but because I was not approached about it first. I am always open to new ideas but please do not go making changes to this class without asking me.

JennaBradford (talk) 20:02, 15 March 2018 (MDT)

This is a wiki. You need to be prepared for other people editing the pages you create. You seem to be behaving as if you own this page. It is long-standing wiki policy that no one can claim ownership of a page; please see Help:Attribution, Help:Legal, and Wikipedia's ownership policy. And when I say long-standing, I mean looooooooooooooong-standing. At the bottom of every edit box, including the one I am currently typing this message into, there is a message that says "If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here." If you truly do not want anyone else to edit "your" page, you can move it into your userspace, where other users are not allowed to edit, except for administrators to remove content that breaks sitewide rules (per Help:Behavioral Policy#User Pages). If you do not know how to do this, I or another user would be willing to help you or do it for you. — Geodude671 (talk | contribs | email)‎ . . 20:26, 15 March 2018 (MDT)

EDIT: That having been said, I won't be undoing your undo because I agree with you that those edits did not improve the page. 20:27, 15 March 2018 (MDT)

So, the big revision I've been working on isn't panning out right. During limited playtesting, the class was found to be clunky in some aspects and ruthlessly OP in others. I'm going back to the drawing board with how to continue development with this class. JennaBradford (talk) 08:23, 1 April 2018 (MDT)

I've done some fuddling about behind the scenes to continue development on this class. I've gone thru several revisions and have decided that the revision I ultimately scrapped had the best workable base. What made it unbalanced was how their capstone ability functioned and it ultimately shifted the class away from being a Hybrid class to more of a traditional spellcaster. So, I am reviving that revision and making some minor corrections to lay the foundation for what Mystic Knight will become.

When this is ready, the Archetypes are going to be substantially overhauled to work with the new foundation. I can't say when this is going to be ready for showcasing, but I promise to get it out there as soon as I can. JennaBradford (talk) 10:59, 22 April 2018 (MDT)

Good news, everyone! I've got enough reworked to get things posted. Initially, I'll only be posting 1 of the 4 planned Archetypes for this new revision. The others need some time to finish being tweaked. To explain this decision, the Archetypes are basically taking the form of Elemental Paths called "Aspects" focused around the core elements: Earth, Fire, Water, and Wind. Each of these elements has unique benefits and abilities. The only one I have finished fleshing out in terms of mechanics is Aspect of the Pyre. It is an archetype focused around being highly aggressive and overwhelming your opponent with raw power. I should have it posted shortly.

I'm looking for feedback on the new material once I get it posted, so please feel free to share your thoughts. JennaBradford (talk) 10:11, 11 May 2018 (MDT)

The New Revision is Here !

Hey all!

I just finished getting Revision 3.0 posted for all to see. There are a lot of changes to go over, so here is the short version:

• Arcane Points and Quicken Arts no longer exist. These mechanics seemed good in concept but it was far too limited to be effective in game. They have been removed entirely.
• The class is now a Wisdom-based instead of Intelligence-based. This decision was made to help it fit the new base class design and because it gives more options for multiclassing. Being intelligence based meant people could only become Wizards or Mystics unless they wanted to be MAD.
• The class can no longer use Conjuration or Illusion magic
• The Forward Path is now Elemental Aspects. Archetypes are now based around channeling the primary elements of Earth, Fire, Water, and Wind. This adds an interesting depth to the archetype structure.
• The Class now uses a unique mechanic called Power Charges. Beginning at 3rd level, casting spells using the Cast a Spell action grants power charges equal to the level of the spell being cast. These power charges fuel many aspects of the class so players will have to balance spellcasting and direct combat to maximize their potential. The benefits of Power Charges will vary from player to player but it is worth considering that smart players can double their spell slots by using it effectively.
• Currently, only 1 Archetype is posted. The remaining 3 will be posted once they finish their individual developments.

There is still quite a bit of clean up to do with this revision, so here is what is still pending:

• The Art of Runeforging needs a basic description
• The 3 remaining Archetypes need to be completed and uploaded
• The spell list needs to be updated to reflect the changes to usable magic schools

I am looking forward to hearing everyone's feedback on the newest version of Mystic Knight! JennaBradford (talk) 11:35, 11 May 2018 (MDT)

Hey JennaBradford,

I'll admit, this version looks pretty rad! I do notice a few things that look a little iffy to me, though;

• For starters, you accidentally put 'Rower Charges' instead of 'Runic Charges' in the description for 'Fury of the Pyre' so there's just a little error to fix, unless they now have superior boat-rowing prowess while being furious.
• Why do Mystic Knights start with Dex and Int saves and gain Wis saves later on? Seems a little off to me, given other casters are proficient in saves for their spellcasting ability from the start.
• Related, stacking a Paladin-esque Wis modifier bonus to saves with proficiency in Wis saves is kinda overpowered for level 8, especially with that also giving an Ability Score Increase. Perhaps removing one effect from Iron Will and/or moving them to a different level(or levels) would be a better option?
• Is there a cap for Runic Charges at one time? If not that seems rather extreme; Especially since the charges effectively work as a second set of spell slots for every level...
• Warrior Instincts seems both too strong and too weak to me. Strong because potential advantage every turn for a bonus action, weak because Wisdom is a common save so it might do nothing but eat your bonus action... though to be fair it doesn't seem like Mystic Knight has a lot to do with it otherwise...

Looking forward to seeing the rest of the subclasses and any other changes you might make, though I did like the previous version of Mystic Knight.

-TheMagnusIgnis

Hey TheMagnusIgnis,

In regards to the "Rower Charges", I made a last minute change to keep things within the theme of the class. Originally, Runic Charges were called Power Charges and that's actually how it appeared in all the prototypes. After conferencing with some friends to review the new revision, it was a nearly universally agreed that they should be called Runic Charges. When I went through and started making that change on the wiki, I must have had a brain slip because it seems I put a few Rowers instead of Runic out there. I'll get that fixed.

In regards to the class saves, this was a difficult call. I was actively looking to keep with the basic rule of one common / one uncommon save. This meant that giving them Dex/Wis was off limits because those are two common saves, so my backup option was Wis/Int. As I was reviewing other material, I realized that would mean they would have the same saves as Wizard, which I was actively trying to avoid because the basic classes all have a different mix of saves. The only one that I didn't see anywhere was Dex/Int, which is what I used for Revision 1.0 and Revision 2.0.

The saves issue only got worse when I had to consider whether or not to keep Intelligence as their spellcasting modifier. One of the things I took into strong consideration with Revision 3.0 was Multiclass potential. Due to the focus on Intelligence, the multiclass options were extremely limited. In fact, it was limited to Wizard and Mystic, both of which are essentially full casters and that irked me. Looking over Revision 3.0, I saw that I was putting more of a design choice on their ability to read their opponents and react to them, which made them more Wisdom based than Intelligence based. After discussing the matter with my friends, we all agreed that we should change them to be Wisdom-based for their spellcasting. Not only did this fit with their theming, this greatly expanded their multiclass potential by giving them access to Cleric, Druid, Monk, Ranger, and even Fighter without becoming MAD. Moreover, with the new design choices made in Revision 3.0, certain spellcasters (full and half) actually gain some impressive utility: Eldritch Knight, Warlock, Arcane Trickster, and Sorcerer all stand out as standing to gain impressive power by just taking 3 levels of Mystic Knight due to Retaining Rune and the nature of how Mystic Knight's archetypes now work.

The way I got around this was including Iron Will at level 8. I know everyone is thinking this is strong but there is some basis for why I did this. First, let's talk about Iron Will itself. Adding Proficiency in Wisdom Saves and gaining a solo version of Aura of Protection was a way to keep with the theming of the class. Originally, this feature was level 18 feature that gave them proficiency in Wisdom saves and let them maintaining concentration on two spells at once. In testing, this was pretty weak both because of the level you got it at and because most players don't have a reason to cast more than one concentration spell at one time. With the class showing a theme of persistence and determination, it made sense to give them Paladin's Aura of Protection effect that only benefited themselves. In the test format, this was a level 10 ability alongside Warrior Instincts.

During testing, the point was brought up that level 10 felt "Heavy" because of Iron Will and Warrior Instinct. Both of these abilities were useful, so everyone felt that level 10 was this sorta "Holy Grail" level where the class has a sort of evolution. I didn't like that, so I went back to reviewing PHB material and noticed that Cleric actually violates the standard rule of no features when you get an Ability Score Increase. At 8th level, they gain a Divine Feature and an improvement to Destroy Undead. Looking over what some of the level 8 Divine Features were (Adding WIS Modifier to Cantrip Damage or Adding 1d8 Damage to an attack once a turn every turn), it wasn't unreasonable to include a single person Aura of Protection and Wisdom Save proficiency there. It is important to remember that Paladins get this benefit and give it to anyone within 10ft starting at Level 6, which is significantly more powerful, so getting at level 8 is balanced. It makes level 8 "Heavy" and a bit of a game changer, but it honestly doesn't matter if it is level 8 or level 10 at this point. If it is that much of a concern, I'll simply move it back to level 10.

For Runic Charges, there is absolutely a limit on the number of charges you can get at once. The cap is your Wisdom Modifier, so a maximum of 5 until you hit level 20 when your maximum modifier increases to 7. This still seems like a lot but the class has quite a bit of safeguards in place to ensure that players have plenty of incentive to use them for more than just casting spells.

The first things players are going to naturally experiment with is Retaining Rune and the Discharge technique. In order to gain Runic Charges, players have to cast spells using their spell slots. Based on the spell slot used, they gain a number of Runic Charges. For example, Fireball would give you 3 Runic Charges. The Runic Charges CAN be used with Discharge to cast your next spell without using a spell slot OR they could be used with the Archetype Features. Just using Aspect of the Pyre here since it is the only one that I managed to finished when I posted Revision 3.0, if you focus on using Discharge, you're losing an immense amount of utility. Fury of the Pyre lets you unleash incredible damage by using Runic Charges to cast one of your Bonus Spells as a Bonus Action. Wrath of the Pyre lets you use a unique version of Hellish Rebuke that can reduce incoming damage by the damage it deals to your attacker.

Players still have the option to going traditional spellcaster with these abilities if they choose to. In some instances, that may actually be a very powerful option. That being said, it is important to note that the class has a heavy school restriction: Evocation, Enchantment, Abjuration, and Transmution. In terms of spells of 1st thru 5th level, I haven't come across anything that should be concerning to a GM or a party. Being able to cast so many extra spells (if you're careful and smart) just means they have expanded utility like a Wizard who regains spell slots at a short rest. In order to maintain that advantage, Mystic Knights are constantly in a cycle of building up and expending those Runic Charges with their various abilities. I may need to reduce the amount of time Runic Charges last (8 hours, or effectively until your next long rest) to 2 hours (or effectively until your next short rest). I think this change would actually play to the class's theme better, so I may go ahead and just make that change anyway.

Lastly, let's talk Warrior Instinct. In a lot of ways, this is a conditional True Strike. True Strike is a cantrip that makes your next attack have Advantage, so it only works on the first attack you make with your attack action. Warrior Instinct does the same thing but makes you read your opponent (Insight Check vs Opponent's Wisdom). If you needed it, its there, but if you get to level 20, this ability becomes incredibly powerful. While most groups never reach their capstone, it is worth noting that the Mystic Knight capstone ability "Limiter Release" completely changes Warrior Instinct. While in a Heightened State, Warrior Instinct becomes part of your attack action. It also puts your opponent as Disadvantage on their Wisdom Check and grants advantage to all your attacks instead of just one.

You're not wrong that Warrior Instinct is kinda meh as a 10th level ability, so I am going to move Iron Will back to 10th level anyway to avoid any further controversy about it being at level 8. It also offsets the meh nature Warrior Instinct.

JennaBradford (talk) 08:19, 12 May 2018 (MDT)

Hey JennaBradford,

To be fair about the saves thing, Druid also has Int and Wisdom saves so it's a bit of a wash there, since just having the same saves does not make the class feel the same. But hey, still your call and the logic put forward by your explanation of Iron Will makes sense.

With the Runic Charges, the heart of my concern was the lack of things to spend them on besides spells. A suggestion I saw from a friend who I showed this class to was perhaps using Runic Charges to activate the advantage on an attack effect of Warrior Instinct, which they thought fit the magic knight feel of the class. On the subject of the charges, are there any other native to the base class Runeforging options besides Retaining Rune's discharge in the works? Not ones from archetypes like Fury or Wrath of the pyre, I mean. Seems kinda bare to leave all the extra means of using the charges to the subclasses without at least one other native option for all Mystic Knights. -TheMagnusIgnis

Hey TheMagusIgnis,

I didn't know about Druid having INT/WIS. I must have kept overlooking them so I apologize for my oversight. I was still trying to keep Mystic Knight as different from other classes as I could since that was one of the major criticisms I was hearing when I had other people look things over. I may have been trying too hard to break away from some of the old criticisms that I just didn't see things that were in front of me.

In regards to Runic Charges and their functions, originally Retaining Rune had 2 functions. The first is Discharge, which survived the drafting and initial review phase, and Amplify which was cut. Amplify would allow you to expend Runic Charges to add bonus force damage to your next successful melee damage. It was essentially Divine Smite for Runic Charges, adding 2d4 Force Damage per Runic Charge spent. Everyone I showed Mystic Knight to had the exact same opinion of it: Why would you use Amplify if you have Discharge? Discharge, as an ability, is easily the most powerful thing about Mystic Knight. It would be really easy to say that it is actually too good and I honestly couldn't refute that if I wanted to. The only way I could find to balance Discharge was to ensure that players had access to enough Techniques that use Runic Charges that they are forced to consider how they want to use them.

In the early Archetype redesign, following the building of the core Mystic Knight, I toyed with the idea of having two vastly different archetypes that each drew on the four Primary Elements, essentially making the archetypes a sorta free-form idea. I wanted one to channel the elements into their body to augment their physical abilities while the other externalized them to create unique effects. Ultimately, this idea got sidelined for the current Archetype Structure of each archetype focusing on the use of a single element and each catering to a different play style. There is still some merit in this idea of augmenting your physical self, so I may go dust off some old ideas that was ultimately cut in Revision 3.0.

As I made a Mystic Knight for some playtesting as part of a Battle Royale, I found myself in an interesting quandary. Normally, melee characters want to have either high AC or a great amount of staying power to survive in combat. Mystic Knight doesn't really have either of those things going for it as a base class. Medium Armor and No Shields pretty much limits them to a base AC of about 17. This means their best possible AC would be around 22 assuming +3 Armor and +2 from various Protection magic items. Players can circumvent this by starting as another class (I.E Fighter) which can help, but for the sake of testing, I need to be examining Mystic Knight as a straight class. As for staying power, honestly Mystic Knight is hurting there too. I actually spent a good amount of time last night just thinking about this issue and what I've decided on is that I don't need to be approaching this from the perspective of AC. What they need is more natural utility.

In the early drafts of Revision 3.0, Mystic Knights has an ability called "Internalize" and it allowed you to use Runic Charges to give yourself some physical benefits. Namely, it allowed you to spend a Runic Charge to take the Dodge or Dash action as a Bonus Action with the idea being that you are drawing Runic Energy into your body to enhance your speed. It was ultimately cut because it felt too close to Monk's Ki Abilities and because it didn't seem like players would be willing to use it. However, after taking part in the Battle Royale, this is actually a worthwhile consideration, especially the Dodge action because it means that lower AC isn't a liability.

I agree that Mystic Knight needs more base abilities that draw on Runic Charges. I'm open to ideas on how to do that. JennaBradford (talk) 08:00, 13 May 2018 (MDT)

Hey JennaBradford,

Yeah, I poked around to see what the saves were on the casting classes so I thought I'd share it to help out.

Definitely look over your old ideas, you never know what you might realize you can modify in a way that works for the current iteration of the class. The 'Rune Smite' is interesting, but like you said Discharge is really strong. I like the idea of 'Internalize' as well, and you shouldn't let the similarity to another class fully stop you. Ki is a more limited resource, while the Runic Charges are constantly in flux as the Mystic Knight builds and expends them. I played a class that worked on a similar idea in a few old pathfinder campaigns, and the flux of charges was a lot of fun.

Some quick ideas I have for Runic Charge abilities are a non-combat related ability that expends them(burning 2-3 charges to get advantage on a proficient skill check perhaps?), burning all charges for a melee spell attack that does more damage the more charges are expended(A high level ability, naturally), and a means of spending charges to execute unique attacks as an action - such as one that lets the Mystic Knight retreat with a parting shot of arcane energy(no more than 2d6 damage, I'd say), or one that lets them use a charging attack to get into the fray with a little extra damage on top.

Hope those ideas help! - TheMagnusIgnis

Hey All,

So, I've decided I need to make a small but significant change to Mystic Knight. I'm still mulling over the impact of this decision but I am changing the Archetype Structure to have 4 growth stages instead of the current 5 stages. This would open 18th Level for the inclusion of additional techniques (which are going to be archetype dependent). I have also decided that I am going to be adding a new technique around level 12 to include with this. Details to follow at a later date. Until then, if an Admin or Moderator comes across this message, please add a "Work in Progress" flag to Mystic Knight. My goal is to complete these changes and get the remaining 3 Archetypes posted by May 30th. JennaBradford (talk) 07:53, 14 May 2018 (MDT)

You do know you can add the {{WIP}} tag yourself? You literally just add that text to the top of the page (curled brackets included). — Geodude671 (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 18:53, 14 May 2018 (MDT)

Hey Geodude671,

I do now! LOL. Sorry, I actually didn't realize that it was just something I could add on my own. I'm not really used to wiki formats like this one, so I'm still really unsure of what I can or can't do without permission from moderators/administrators. I apologize for leaning on people like yourself for something like that. Is there a guide for various editing flags that I can use for future reference?

Also, I've made a few major changes for review by the community at large.

• Changed base saves to WIS/INT
• Adjusted Iron Will to no longer give proficiency in WIS saves. It still applies an Aura of Protection-esqe effect to the Mystic Knight
• Arcane Shroud is now a defense technique granted by Iron Will
• Limiter Release is now Rune of Enlightenment. It still increases your Wisdom score and maximum Wisdom, but now it adds a special ability to invoke Elemental Aspect-specific abilities. The "Investiture" effects are a temporary placeholder as I am basing how those effects will work on the various Investiture spells.

I'm still brainstorming what to do with the level 18th level feature. I've got ideas in the mix, but I am having to be very careful about them. A few ideas have already shelves because of how they break the balance of Aspect of the Pyre. JennaBradford (talk) 07:48, 16 May 2018 (MDT)

If you're looking for a "guide to the wiki" the best thing would probably be the Help:Portal. — Geodude671 (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 08:14, 16 May 2018 (MDT)

Thank you for the link, Geodude671! I'm reading over it in my spare time and hope to be able to get things properly formatted soon. JennaBradford (talk) 16:04, 18 May 2018 (MDT)

So, Revision 3.1 is now posted. Not a lot of changes here, but the changes that were made are fairly substantial.

• Iron Will has a new ability called Aetherseize, which acts as unique form of Counterspell that is cast with Runic Charges. When used to counter magic, you recover spell slots, so there is incentive to use it.
• Arcane Shroud now provides an AC bonus equal to your Wisdom Modifier when used.
• I added Combat Arts as a feature at 7th level and Improved Combat Arts to fill the 18th level ability void. Combat Art introduces two new techniques that can heavily affect the operation of the class: A unique charge attack and a special variant of Thunderwave. Improved Combat Arts gives you the option of using these techniques as a Bonus Action instead of an Action. This allows you to combine both Combat Art Techniques to engage in a different style of gameplay.

At this point, Mystic Knight is pretty much DROWNING in Techniques, so I'm probably going to do some trimming before long. I'm looking for feedback on what is working and what isn't. JennaBradford (talk) 16:04, 18 May 2018 (MDT)

Hey JennaBradford,

Holy crispy fried bacon bits, Aethersieze is absolutely INSANE. As is the Wis mod bonus to AC on Arcane Shroud - More AC on top of imposing disadvantage is outrageous.

• For Aethersieze, my suggestion would be to tone it down rather a lot if you'd prefer to keep it rather than removing it completely, though it might make a slightly better level 20 captsone rather than a level 10 feature. Perhaps making it let you burn your charges to just halve the damage from the damaging spell(Before saving throws) instead of completely negating it? No gaining back spell slots, though - Unless the DM explicitly refuses to throw magic users at the party, that would give the Mystic Knight completely unlimited spellcasting in a day because they just burn enough to use Aethersieze, then siphon all their expended slots back. To say nothing of a DM making an enemy Mystic Knight against the party...
• With Arcane Shroud, pick one between the AC bonus or the imposing disadvantage.

I do, however, really like the Combat Arts. Sundering Strike moreso than Repulsing Force, but they're both rather unique for class features. -TheMagnusIgnis

Thanks for the quick feedback, TheMagnusIgnis. I hear what you're saying with Aetherseize and Arcane Shroud, but there are some things that I feel are being overlooked. Please allow me to explain what I mean.

• Arcane Shroud is the easier of the two to justify. I understand why you feel this is strong but I feel it is worth pointing out that it is not as strong as you think. Really, what Aether Shroud is is a cost-based Bonus Action Dodge. Taking the Dodge action already imposes disadvantage on all attacks against you, so the only thing that Aether Shroud offers outside of that is the AC bonus until your next turn. Thematically speaking, the idea was that you deploy a protective barrier using some Runic Energy and go on the defensive. Initially, this provided +2 AC (equivalent to a shield) and maybe it worked better that way, but given that Iron Will is about digging deep and not allowing yourself to be overcome, it made more sense to just have that bonus be your WIS Modifier. It still costs 2 Runic Charges to use and with an arsenal of abilities dependent on Runic Charges, it feels like this is going to be a situational ability. Personally, I'd like to get away from banking on AC too much, so I am actually thinking of just making Aether Shroud give you Resistance to Attacks and Spells until the start of your next turn. This fits more thematically since the shroud itself would act as a dampening field instead of a barrier.

• Aetherseize is a lot harder to explain, so I want to talk about two aspects of this ability that I feel are kind of overlooked. First is the cost of 3 Runic Charges. If you're not level 20, your maximum charges is 5, so we're talking about 60% of your Primary ability pool. Considering that this ability pool is gated behind your actual spellcasting, players are going to be forced to decide between Aetherseize or most of their other abilities since Resource Management for Mystic Knight is extremely important due to their wide array of abilities. Second, Aetherseize has limited effectiveness. It can only be used on a spell that allows the Mystic Knight to make a save. This means spells that rely on an attack roll (Ray of Frost, Chromatic Orb, Scorching Ray, Eldritch Blast, Melf's Magic Arrow, Booming Blade, Flame Sword, etc) cannot be stopped with Aetherseize. It also means that Aetherseize cannot stop someone from casting utility magic (Blur, Barkskin, Polymorph, Wall of Fire, any of the Smite spells, Cure Wounds, Healing Word, Heal, Mass Heal, Mislead, Invisibility, etc) which have the ability to turn the tide of battle or any spells that are designed to exclusively ruin someone's fun (Otto's Irresistible Dance, Heat Metal, Power Word Kill, Silence, etc) as these spells don't permit for a save of any kind. If you'd like a list of spells Aetherseize can't affect, I did find a list that someone put together of spells that have no attack rolls or saving throws: [[1]]. You can also find a list of spells that rely on Attack Rolls here: [[2]]. What all this is getting at is that Aetherseize is at a disadvantage vs Counterspell. Going into the Thematics of this ability, the idea here was using Runic Charges to absorb the magic that was cast into an area and restore your own strength. What was going through my head here was Celes Chere from Final Fantasy 6 who is a Rune Knight of the Empire. Her ability, Runic, allows her to draw (most) magic to herself, protecting her allies while allowing her to restore her MP as a result. I think the easiest way to fix this ability is going to involve a few things: First, the ability to restore spell slots will be limited to 1 spell slot with a level less than or equal to the negated spell (this would limit the benefit against higher level spells and prevent the infinite spellcasting risk); and Second, the way Aetherseize will work would only exclude the Mystic Knight from the effect of the spell (This means a spell like Meteor Swarm would still wreck the rest of the party, thus further reducing the potential of this ability). These changes deviate from the thematic base I was going for, but I'm willing to give up on theming for the sake of balance. That being said, I'm not against moving this ability elsewhere and maybe the capstone is the best place for this technique. I'll have to think on that. JennaBradford (talk) 09:17, 19 May 2018 (MDT)

I asked a close group of friends for their advice about Aetherseize. It was unanimously decided that it should be their capstone technique, so I moved it to level 20. JennaBradford (talk) 09:51, 19 May 2018 (MDT)

Aspect of the Gale is now available for open input! I've decided to drop the Earth-themed archetype, Aspect of the Stones, from my designs due to constant struggles to make it worthwhile. I may revisit it at a later date but now I can focus on development of the Water-themed archetype, Aspect of the Tides. I'm looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts on Aspect of the Gale! JennaBradford (talk) 11:43, 20 May 2018 (MDT)

Hey JennaBradford,

I really like the style for Aspect of the Gale. It all feels thematically appropriate and really unique, though it's always been my understanding that thunder damage was the 'wind' damage type rather than force damage. Being able to convert any spell's damage type into force damage could be very powerful, but I'm also not certain how common thunder resistance is so it might not matter much in the long run.

I also like the change to level 20 for Aethersieze; That's a pretty awesome capstone. Looking forward to seeing Aspect of the Tides! -TheMagnusIgnis

Hey TheMagnusIgnis, glad you like the theme of Aspect of the Gale. I was actually struggling to figure out what damage was appropriate for this archetype when I came across a damage type guide that helped to put things into perspective. You can find the info here: [[3]]. According to this reference, Thunder damage is defined as a "Concussive burst of sound", which didn't really fit the wind element. This pretty much left Force as the only real option. I tried turning to the actual various wind spells in the game and it actually made things a bit easier to accept Force as the option as those spells seem to deal Bludgeoning damage due to debris picked up by the force of the wind.

Each of the Elemental Aspects have the ability to change the element of their spells to match their elemental rune. Aspect of the Pyre can change spells to deal Fire damage, Aspect of the Gale can change spells to deal Force damage, and Aspect of the Tides will be able to change spells to deal Cold damage. With each Elemental Aspect being attuned to a specific elemental Rune, this just helped to add flavor to their magic. In most instances, this is a negligible benefit (Cold and Fire Resistance are fairly common after all), so I understand why changing the damage type to Force can seem a little powerful as very few things can resist it. That being said, the spells where this can be problematic are actually at a bit of a handicap to use for an Aspect of the Gale. The notable two that most people think of are Fireball and Lightning Bolt, but even when these spells are boosted to 5th level, they only deal an average of 35 damage. At that point, Thunderwave is actually significantly more powerful due to the dynamics of the Aspect of the Gale. Severing Wind forces anyone affected by a knock back effect to be at disadvantage on their save and would deal 25 Damage plus up to 27 Slashing damage thanks to Severing Wind. This boosts the damage of Thunderwave up to 52 on average when someone fails a save or 27 if they pass, which makes it about 50% stronger than Fireball or Lightning Bolt using the same spell slot under the same conditions.

I hope this makes sense. Please let me know your thoughts. JennaBradford (talk) 15:19, 20 May 2018 (MDT)

I'll be honest, I understood entirely why it was there, I just wasn't sure of the whole deal with Force VS Thunder as for what the description of them was. With that explanation as well, yeah that's fairly reasonable. Plus I noticed it didn't come with Force resistance, which I think is fair. But yeah, looking forward to Aspect of the Tides! -TheMagnusIgnis

Hey All,

New developments are afoot. Aspect of the Tides and Aspect of the Stones are both on hold pending the resolution of some issues with their mechanics. Aspect of the Stones is likely to be the next Archetype to be finished at this rate.

There have also been some substantial changes made to Mystic Knight and the elemental aspects. Here's a rundown

• Retaining Rune once again grants the Amplify technique, allowing you to spend Runic Charges to deal extra Force Damage (2d6) on a successful attack.
• Aspect of the Pyre no longer gains resistance or immunity to fire via Agent of the Pyre and Bathe in the Flames respectively.
• Aspect of the Pyre's Burn Away ability no longer makes enemies who have no resistance to fire damage vulnerable to fire damage.
• Aspect of the Gale can no longer use the Dodge and Dash actions as bonus actions
• Galeburst can now be used when you move at least 10 feet instead of 20
• Eternal Squall no longer increases your movement speed. You now gain the benefit of Zypher Strike when you move at least 10 feet during your turn.
• Both Agent of the Pyre and Agent of the Gale now allow you to change the elemental damage done with Mystic Knight Techniques
• Amplify has had its elemental damage changed from Force to Lightning
• Sundering Strike has had its elemental damage changed from Force to Thunder

More changes are likely to come in shortly. I have been working on getting certain sections of the class rewritten to make more sense and more closely mirror language used in the PHB. JennaBradford (talk) 07:01, 24 May 2018 (MDT)

Hey everyone! Aspect of the Tides is finally here! This new class update includes a number of changes. Here's a rundown of the new update:

The class has been altered to use Intelligence instead of Wisdom. This is actually a revert since this was originally how I had designed the class.

• Aspect of the Tides has been added to the Elemental Aspect list. This archetype serves as a sort of "Battlefield Medic" archetype and is focused around the idea of free-flowing water.

• Retaining Rune no longer provides any techniques. It is now a Core Ribbon Feature.

• Iron Will no longer provides any techniques. It is now a Core Ribbon Feature.

• A new Feature has been added at level 3: Augmenting Arts. This feature gives players two techniques: Arcane Shroud and Insightful Wellspring. Both of these techniques see improvement at level 14.

• Combat Arts has been overhauled. Techniques no longer have a set elemental damage type and instead deal Elemental Damage based on your Elemental Aspect.

• Agent of the Pyre and Agent of the Gale no longer allow you to change the damage type of spells. This is to conform with the design overhaul for Combat Arts that rendered that effect unnecessary.

• Wrath of the Pyre has been renamed Scornful Retribution

• Scornful Retribution now gives you Advantage against the creature it hits if you take the Attack action or use a Technique against them on your next turn.

• Burn Away has been replaced with a new feature: Engulfing Flames.

• Bathe in the Flames has been renamed Ardent Wildfire.

• Sundering Strike is now defined as being a Dash Action and that the distance you travel using it counts against your movement for the round.

Please let me know your thoughts on the newest revision! JennaBradford (talk) 02:22, 29 May 2018 (MDT)

Hey JennaBradford,

Aspect of the Tides looks pretty slick. Only comment is you forgot to remove Arcane Shroud from Iron Will. And is Iron Will still supposed to work of Wisdom for the save bonus? -TheMagnusIgnis