Talk:Monk, Tome (3.5e Class)

BAB

Think we should go with Races of War BAB for these? I mean, level 20 BAB being +20/+15/+15/+15 raises a lot of eyebrows among people who aren't familiar with F&K reasoning.Genowhirl 20:37, 12 November 2008 (MST)

No. Keep it as it is. --TK-Squared 22:42, 12 November 2008 (MST)

Balance

One of the grand master fighting style abilities allows each attack to be a save-or-die. Every round, that's four save-or-dies. Brokenness abounds. --Daniel Draco 20:40, 30 November 2008 (MST)

It's level 15 when you get the options of having that, which happens to be the city limits of CrazyTown. The monsters at CR 15+ are INSANE, so characters who want to contribute against them in a fight...well, they need something likewise pretty darn crazy. Looking at the Monsters by CR list, well, I notice a lot of true dragons on there. Those things have good Fort saves, and have a fair chance of survival. I also see a lot of constructs and undead, so that ability isn't even applicable to them. And, to cap it all off, I have a very easy houserule for that: If you're hit by it, you have to make a Fort save *that round*, no matter how many times you're hit. -- Genowhirl 20:54, 30 November 2008 (MST)

Well that's the first time I've seen an argument for a bit Frank and K homebrew oddity that has made any sense whatsoever. Touché. --Daniel Draco 20:57, 30 November 2008 (MST)

Posting all this Frank and K stuff *has* taught me a thing or two. They chose monsters as their balance point, so if you want to analyze a class, you have to keep the words "Monsters at CR X" firmly in mind. Their work raised my eyebrows, too, until I started going through the SRD monster list and comparing classes, level X against CR X. Then I felt better about it. Genowhirl 23:07, 30 November 2008 (MST)

Actually, thinking about it I've only come across one other oddity, and that was F&K's idea that base classes needn't always be 20+ levels. The discussions over whose character builds are better got me in the mindset of classes being balanced with other classes, not with monsters...So, point taken, I will keep that in mind from now on :D --Daniel Draco 23:34, 30 November 2008 (MST)

Could a one-level dip in this Monk class give any meleer the ability to deal 2 con damage with every attack they make regardless of their weapon just by spending a swift action every turn? (Note that most meleers don't use too many swift actions, so it's effectively for free.) Feels a bit too powerful for a one-level dip :-\ 76.169.236.139 04:35, 26 June 2009 (MDT)

Yeah, the Monk's a pretty crazy class for almost any length of dip (Ignore DR and Hardness? Why, thank you, I'll do just that). But considering that it's meant to be used with the other Tome classes, who do indeed have uses for their swift and immediate actions...well, it evens up a bit there, what with the Fighter having several things he'd like to be able to do with his swift action, and I know the Barbarian has to Rage and I'm pretty sure there's something for the Samurai and Knight, too. But I do know that the classes were made with the intention that you got worthwhile things the entire way through, and therefore you don't have to play a Barbarian/Ranger/Fighter/PrC/PrC by the time you reach level 12 to have cool abilities and decent saves, which really helps with the immersion. Anyway, Con bonus isn't *that* great early on, because you'd have to hit just about anything several times to kill it and you wouldn't even notice the HP loss due to Con what because your weapon damage will drop a critter in a few hits. At higher levels, I suppose it'd be some help if you didn't have a source of bonus damage, since in 3.5, Monster HP increases more quickly than the ability of meleers to wear it down with just weapon attacks. I mean, look at the monsters around level 10. If they have low HP, they're probably casting-based and therefore tricky. If they're a bruiser, they're in all likelyhood a size or two bigger and a good chunk stronger than you are, with higher con scores to boot. So the Con bonus is worth your time, then. Or, put it another way. Here's a CR 3 encounter: "Rawr!"

At level 3, you're supposed to be able to do something useful against that. And with a sword and shield, you totally could.

Now, here's what you're up against at CR 8:

"See this?"

If you're just using weapon attacks, that's not much of a fair fight, is it?

Now, your point about the monk being a crazy-good dip one-level dip class stands. It could add a couple of good tricks and some extras to any melee class. But for the melee segment of the crowd, they need some craziness to keep up with the things they're actually supposed to be doing (kill things by hitting them.) So, yeah, it doesn't bother me. --Genowhirl 08:56, 26 June 2009 (MDT)

It's a good dip class, but doing that does eat up your swift action every round. Surgo 10:58, 26 June 2009 (MDT)

Well, part of his point was that because that ability is 'for free' because melee characters don't use swift actions that much. Which, for the Tome melee characters, isn't true. The Fighter certainly has several abilities requiring a swift action, the Barbarian his swift/immediates to enter a Rage (admittedly, after that, he's got some more choice), the Samurai gets some bonus feats whose options also cut into his swift/Immediate actions, and the Knight's Designate Opponent works as a Swift Action. If you play the Kantian Paladin, he also gets some things which cut into his swift actions. -- Genowhirl

For the whole "Level X versus CR X", it doesn't work correctly; the monsters will be overpowered. A CR X monster is the equivalent to 4 Level X character. In order to balance a character with a monster to match one on one, they need to be matched "CR X versus Level X+4" (approximately). --Rogue The Demonchild

Here's some crow. -- Jota 16:03, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Rating

Power - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because, while it is largely balanced and fair, some of the fighting styles made me raise an eyebrow. I mean, moving around at full speed without provoking attacks of oppurtunity and ignoring hardness and DR at level 1? I'm sorry but those are both things that should be kept in epic or, at the very least, post-tenth levels. You could argue that they only last one round, but keep in mind, they also can be reactivated each round, effectively giving the monk the benifit without any restrictions. → Rith ^(talk) 13:23, 16 April 2009 (MDT)

Don't forget you lose your swift action for the round., so you can't activate magic item, some feats and other things. So yeah. --Lord Dhazriel 13:25, 16 April 2009 (MDT)

Agreed, you lose your swift action, but then again, would you rather activate your wand of fireballs and hit a couple of Balors, or get the bonus of the ability to move through a hallway lined with Balors without a scratch? → Rith ^(talk) 13:42, 16 April 2009 (MDT)

Assuming it's not a wand of fireballs and instead, say, a wand of cone of cold (since balors are immune to fire), I'd rather use the wand. After all, the wand is an area effect, and moving through a hallway without a scratch is useless if they're going to go ahead and scratch you VERY hard when their turn comes. --Daniel Draco 14:19, 16 April 2009 (MDT)

Heh heh, yeah, wand of cone of cold then, my bad :P. Now then, we aren't exactly talking about a paticular fighting style here, we're talking about the class as a whole's power. At level 1, you aren't going to be having magic items at all, yet you get an ability that is (arguably, since I could argue the use of the ability, but would rather not) perferable to one. → Rith ^(talk) 14:33, 16 April 2009 (MDT)

Well, the Monk has a couple of controls on it; you can only have one fighting style active at a time (usually). So you have to choose, round-by-round, what you're doing and use a swift action to do it. Anyway, the DR-ignorage isn't so bad. He's getting 1d8 + 1.5 Str damage with his Slam attack; he could possibly use a weapon to get an enhancement bonus to that, but then he'd have to burn another Fighting Style ability so the DR/Hardness bypass applies to a weapon. Plus, he'd have to shell out for a weapon when he could use the cash on something else. Part of the SRD Monk's difficulties is that monsters have substantial DR that the Monk can't penetrate because his Unarmed Damage scales so slowly and the Monk's abilities to bypass DR don't extend to having their unarmed strikes be considered a +X weapon (Not even counting the Cold Iron/Silver DRs). So the Dungeonomicon Monk can bypass DR and punch his way through even a Adamantine door (given the time), but his Slam damage stays fixed at 1d8 (barring burning a feat on Improved Natural Attack or Enlarge Person or something). The second bit--free AoO-free movement--is a bit more problematical, because the tactical options are so obvious. Enemy caster behind their lines? Mobilize, cross the lines, and go upside his head. Being able to do that never stops being useful. --Genowhirl 14:43, 16 April 2009 (MDT)

Yes, they are both reasonable and fair abilities, I just simply think that first or third level is a little too low to get them. Hence my statment above that they are at the very least post-tenth level abilities. → Rith ^(talk) 19:37, 16 April 2009 (MDT)

I was always a big fan of combining the "ignore AoO" with the "stunning strikes" and opening combat with a charge through enemy lines to get to, and hopefully stun, spellcasters in the first round of combat. It worked pretty well, but that's what monks should be doing; the 3.x core monks were basically designed to take out spellcasters, what with the crazy good saves and the high touch ACs (and then the SR and various other defensive abilites at higher levels) --An_Onymous.

Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because, while all of the class features are easily understood and comprehensive, the strange BAB progression is never explained (I personally know it's from races of war, but others wouldn't, and so would look at it and say, "whuh?"). → Rith ^(talk) 13:23, 16 April 2009 (MDT)

Formatting - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because massive portions of the preload are missing, though, interwiki linking is decently comprehensive. (Also, you have one red link in the fighting styles section). → Rith ^(talk) 13:23, 16 April 2009 (MDT)

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because, while most of the flavor related parts of the preload are missing, this really captures the feel of the anime, "crouching tiger hidden dragon" monk. → Rith ^(talk) 13:23, 16 April 2009 (MDT)

Changed rating since flavor is independant of the preload. → Rith ^(talk) 11:22, 17 April 2009 (MDT)

Major Flaws

The base class is 100% made of Supernatural Abilities. Even if you look at the normal SRD Monk over 1/2 of his abilities are Extraordinary. Including the armor bonus. This version of the monk is subject to some serious anti-magic abilities. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sleaker (talk • contribs) 16:04, 27 December 2009 (MST). Please sign your posts.

Agreed, but here's a counter-point: DM's who make frequent use of antimagic, risk being branded as DM-vs-Player, Gygaxian sadists. Thus becoming subject to a player's most powerful combo: A Book To The Head (Ex) followed by I'm Not Playing With You Anymore (Su). --ScryersEve 20:28, 10 September 2011 (MDT)

You, my good fellow, win thirty Internets. --173.245.56.194 21:32, 10 September 2011 (MDT)

Rating

Balance - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because <<<You can get a crazy high AC If you use the right fighting stances, and the Slam attack is crazy strong>>> --131.193.225.41 16:54, 22 October 2013 (MDT)

Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because <<<some of the phasing can get tricky>>> --131.193.225.41 16:54, 22 October 2013 (MDT)

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because <<<Its easy to find what you are looking for and links to other pages>>> --131.193.225.41 16:54, 22 October 2013 (MDT)

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because <<<With the jumping ability, it adds a lot of variety to gameplay>>> --131.193.225.41 16:54, 22 October 2013 (MDT)

You do not understand tome materials so your comments have been struck. If you would like to learn about tome materials the Races of War sourcebook will enable you to learn about the changes to the system so you can give informed feedback. Tivanir (talk) 10:33, 23 October 2013 (MDT)