Talk:Metahand (3.5e Prestige Class)

The Hell?

Sorry about that, but...Where the hell have the class features' descriptions gone?! -HarrowedMind (talk) 15:00, 7 September 2012 (MDT)

Obnoxious Prereq

Do you seriously expect people to book-keep things like whether or not they've rolled maximum damage on a crit? Because that's just obnoxious. Surgo 21:24, 24 March 2009 (MDT)

Well, if you've rolled max damage on a crit in the past, it tends to be a "YES!!!" kind of a moment, considering that max damage on a crit is usually approaching death due to massive damage at the very least. Therefore, someone who has met that prerequisite will remember when they did so, cause that character will stick out in the players mind as a beast. On the other hand, lets say someone finds the class, and doesn't know whether or not they have met that prerequisite, it's very easy for them to start a few friendly brawls with their companions, dealing only nonlethal damage to each other, thats a 1d3 roll, rolled until they get bored, you simply have to get a crit and then roll a 3, there, you have met the prerequisite. Also, another statement about the prereq, I wanted this class to have a little bit of unique flavor that you didn't usually find in another class, while still remaining in the realm of mechanics. → Rith ^(talk) 15:34, 25 March 2009 (MDT)

If you're seriously suggesting that people do that that's fine, but from my experience most people have problems with the "few nonlethal brawls" idea. Surgo 20:22, 25 March 2009 (MDT)

Well, I'm not specifically suggesting it, but if a person really wants to take levels in the class, but can't seem to roll the necessary rolls, then they can use that option. → Rith ^(talk) 20:50, 25 March 2009 (MDT)

How about must have rolled max damage, or killed someone with a crit? --Ganre 02:09, 29 March 2009 (MDT)

Well, that raises up another point about this class, this class is also supposed to be tricky to get into, so that not everybody is running around with levels in it. → Rith ^(talk) 14:50, 29 March 2009 (MDT)

How many NPCs are in the class is entirely controllable by the DM. The PCs will either have it or they won't have it...which do you want? Surgo 16:20, 29 March 2009 (MDT)

Well, thats a good point about NPCs being able to get it regardless of the prerequisite, though, to answer your question, of course I want PCs to play the class, why would I make it otherwise, I just want there to be at least some difficulty getting into the class, to make the PCs feel as though they have accomplished something. Though, if its agreed that one of Ganre's alternatives accomplish this goal just as effectively as the current prereq, then I guess I will change it. → Rith ^(talk) 20:48, 29 March 2009 (MDT)

For a Small or smaller character, rolling maximum damage on a critical is a guarantee on certain weapons (shuriken - the maximum base damage is 1), whereas larger size categories get progressively more difficult as one goes up in sizes (bigger dice and more of them). A martial class based on the idea that "speed or wielding massive weapons" isn't needed to be a good warrior shouldn't bias ease of access toward either extreme.

The dice mastery ability also presents a problem when one looks at sizes. The d4 ability is utterly useless once you get to Gargantuan (or, if you ignore whips, shurikens, and non-monk unarmed, once you get to Large). And then, it suddenly becomes more and more useful with size increase at the d6 level. The d8 level becomes even more useful for large sizes (and even harder to use for smaller sizes), especially for those few weapons that have damages of many d8s instead of d6es. Then the d10 and d12 levels come along, which are generally useless to anyone, because you usually only roll one of those dice at a time, and that small bit of fluctuation shouldn't matter at that level. --Daniel Draco 06:27, 20 April 2009 (MDT)

Well Daniel, that is actually the best reasoning I seen against the prerequite yet, you've actually somewhat convinced me of changing it. Though, as for dice mastery, of course certain ones are more useful than others in a given situation. Though, you can still get more out of maximizing a d12 than you would a d10 if you remain medium sized, likewise, you would get more from a d6 than a d4. You could, of course, carry around a scythe, and maximize both d4 rolls, but then, you use up twice as many uses of dice mastery. The class feature dice mastery is balanced on how, by itself, being used by a medium character, it can be used, and, if a character wants to be colossal, then they can go right ahead and use up all their uses of dice mastery on a single attack. Thanks for your comment btw. → Rith ^(talk) 11:45, 20 April 2009 (MDT)

Alright, I see your point on how it works well for larger sizes. What about smaller sizes, though? For a below-medium character, the dice mastery gives less and less appealing abilities, eventually giving abilities that the character can't use at all. --Daniel Draco 05:27, 21 April 2009 (MDT)

So, are you trying to imply that checkmate and maul are not useful for a small sized fighter? Try in keep in mind that dice mastery is not the only class feature they get, it's just one that improves as they level. Now then, I think I'll go and change that prerequite. → Rith ^(talk) 20:53, 21 April 2009 (MDT)

A Couple of Problems

The flavor at the top infers that the only point of this class is to be better than other classes, and while, in principle, i can see why you would want this, it's not much of a basis of something thast is supposed to add flavor to my game. In other words, ever martial prestige class has this aim, and that aim is not in and of itself justification to be permited in a campaign.

The name of the ability "dice mastery" is totally innappropriate, in my opinion. I would expect an ability name like "Dice Mastery" from a D20 modern advanced class specializing in D&D, not in a D&D class, weapon mastery, combat aptitude, anythign but dice mastery.

The wording under bonus feats is redundant:"A metahand must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums."

If you word it "A Metahand must still meet all prerequisites for the feat.", it removes the redundancy.

Checkmate:This is really confusing to read, please clairify it.

Impairing Strike: this needs some cleaning up as well, perhaps in stead of basing everthing of the in mad, make the duration = to your class level. Also, the section"paticular strike he makes (whether or not it be a sneak attack or an attack made as part of a full-round attack option) as an imparing strike" could be simplified by making it read "any melee attack as an impairing strike"--Ganre 02:59, 27 March 2009 (MDT)

Well, the basis behind this class comes from the prefix meta (and I don't see where you are reading it being about being better than other classes). Meaning that it is intended to mostly affect things that the character (in the world) wouldn't actually have any kind of knowledge of (ala metagame, metamagic, metapsionics). Therefore, flavor for the class is virtually nonexistant, seeing as the class is focused on mechanical bonuses. This is also so that you have a class that isn't dripping in preconcieved notions that you don't necessarily want to be assumed in your game (such as assuming there are other planes or planets in your campaign). This is also the reason for the name of the class feature "dice mastery", since it pretains to something that the character has no reason to be aware of. The bonus feat text is pretty much copied and pasted from SRD:Fighter, there isn't anything wrong with the way it is. Checkmate, yeah, I had some trouble wording it in my head too, but whats it supposed to do, is forgo rolls to confirm critical hits altogether, treating an attack that would normally just threaten a critical hit as automatically critting and adding the metahands AB to the original d20 roll. Imparing strike is worded the way it is because I don't want some players DM to show up and say, "you sacrafice all other benifits of an attack if you take this action," basically, I'm attempting to piant it black and white for anyone who reads it, so it can't be weakened. As for the matter of how long it lasts, the idea you just suggested was the original version of it, but I changed it to this in the end. Also, thanks for your interest (it seems that this class is drawing eyes) → Rith ^(talk) 10:47, 27 March 2009 (MDT)

I prefer to keep all class abilities "in game", it makes it easier to stay in character. So, you are saying that a critical roll is automatically confirmed, and he adds his attack bonus to the original attack roll. Doesn't he already add his attack bonus to the roll when he makes an attack? --Ganre 02:06, 29 March 2009 (MDT)

Well, I've actually been reading up on critcal hits here lately, so I believe I know the way to correct it so it reads how I wan't it to. (Also, its easier to stay in character if you don't even mention the class features, just have the character say, "I can handle this, trust me." instead of, "I can sneak attack him with dice mastery, trust me") → Rith ^(talk) 14:46, 29 March 2009 (MDT)

Some Questions from a Poor Novice

Excuse me but i have some questions (i did not understand some things but i really like your prestige class) about Metahand's Ex abilities , impairing strike is usable a number of times equal to the Metahand levels you posses a day, but:

Impairing Strike says also that the Fortituted roll difficulty is + half of metahand hit die, so this mean that if i am a lv7 fighter and a lv3 metahand and i have got 70 Hit points and 22 (example +2x3 from my Constitution modifier and +7 +5 +4 caming from my hit die rolls) of these hit points comes from the metahand levels i must add 11 on the difficulty of the fortitude roll of my enemy?

Inner Sight how long does improve your AC? it is usable only in battle or whenever you want? there is a limit per day of usage?

Maul and Checkmate have a usage limit per day? or they can be used as many times you want?

I've also another question about Fighter Blood, if i'm a level 10 fighter and a level 10 metahand , and i still take fighter levels, can i still take bonus feat every pair level, or they are now gone , considerating that i am like a level 20 fighter?

Most of these problems are caused by the fact that i'm not english and i have some difficulty to translate the whole thing, so i'm sorry but i really like your prestige class and i'm thinking on rolling it on a future campain. 20 April 2009 Velin

Okay, well, I'll try and answer your questions to the best of my ability. First of all, when, in imparing strike, it says that the DC of the fortitude save is 10 + half the metahand's Hit Die + the metahand's Intelligence modifier, well, lets give an example or two for this:

If a human character had 18 int (+4 modifier), 9 levels in fighter and 5 levels in metahand (ecl 14, 14 levels total, and 14 hit dice total), then, the fortitude save DC would be 21 (10 + 7 (since they have 14 hit die) + 4 (from their int score) = 21).

If a minotaur character had 14 int (+2 modifier), 7 levels in fighter and 3 levels in metahand (ecl 18, 10 levels total, and 16 hit dice total), then, the fortitude save DC would be 20 (10 + 8 (since they have 16 hit die) +2 (from their int score) = 20).

Now then, I hope that helps you understand that better. As for inner Sight, well, it is always active and is actually never activated to begin with, it's just there. Maul is also constantly active (unless he chooses not to use it), and so is checkmate (unless he chooses not to use it). Fighter blood, well, I'm not clear on your question. If you are asking whether or not you take feats every other level as you progress in metahand, then the answer is no. Then again, if you are asking that if you take levels in fighter, then metahand, then fighter again, whether or not you gain bonus feats from your new levels in fighter, the answer is of course, this class doesn't affect the progression of another class. Well, I hope I cleared up a few of your questions, and don't worry, everybody starts somewhere. Well, I wish you luck in whatever campaign you happen to be playing. → Rith ^(talk) 18:35, 19 April 2009 (MDT)

Thank for the help, really i've understood a plenty of thing, and for Fighter Blood i had misunderstood the whole thing... i tought that Fighter Blood granted me to take the Special Bonus Feat from the pair level of the Fighter instead of helping me with the Fighter Feats which depends on your Fighter Level. So if i am a level 15 fighter and level 10 Metahand i'm a level 25 fighter for my fighter feats right? or the limit it's 20?

Checkmate and Inner Sight are now clear to me but i've another question about Maul, Maul converts your multiple hits in a single attack, but the bonus damage of this single attack is the sum of your all multiple attack bonus damage or is the bonus damage of a single attack? (example: i've more than +11 to the BA, so i should be able to attack 3 times, with Maul instead of rolling 3 times the d20 to see how many of the three attacks had hit, i roll the d20 only once, and if i have hit him i would attack with my weapon hit die three times, so if i my weapon is a longsword and i've a +4 strenght modifier, will i do 3d8+12 damage or 3d8+4 considerating the bonus damage of 3 hits or the bonus damage of one hit?)

I think these ones are my last doubts, i thank you again for all the help Velin 20 April 2009

It's no problem man, and I'm glad I could've helped. As for your fighters blood question, you'd be considered 25th level, since the is no actual limit on how many fighter levels you can have. As for Maul, well, it doesn't actually work quite that way, the text is, "all damage over all attacks made by him in a single round be considered to be a single attack for purposes of damage reduction, massive damage or any effect dependant on damage per attack," which means that, instead of each attack being considered individual in regards to damage reduction and other effects dependant on damage per attack, all attacks are considered a single, massive attack. I think an example might be in need here actually:

Joe, the human metahand, has a strength score of 22, and carries around a +3 greatsword in two hands, lets say he has a BAB of +16, allowing him 4 attacks in a round. Now then, he has to roll individual roles for each attack, and lets say, in a paticular full attack option, he hits with the first two attacks, crits on the third, and misses on the fourth, and lets assume that he has enough uses of dice mastery to maximize all 8 d6 rolls. Now then, his total damage would be 96 (first attack: 2d6+12=24, second attack: 2d6+12=24, third attack: 4d6+24=48, all three attacks: 24+24+48=96). Now then, while he had to roll each attack roll individually, the end result is considered a single attack. So, in this case, Joe would be considered as having landed a single strike that dealt 96 points of damage, making his opponent save versus death due to massive damage in almost every situation. Joe's 96 points of damage is also subject to damage reduction only once, meaning that, if these attacks were all made against a single target that had damage reduction 20/-, then they would still be dealt 76 points of damage, instead of 36 points, as would be the other case. (Also, keep in mind that Joe here, is a very strong metahand, has just used up a lot of his uses of dice mastery, and got lucky on that third hit)

Well, I hope that clears it up for ya man, and it's no problem. → Rith ^(talk) 11:45, 20 April 2009 (MDT)

Thanks for the help, you were awesome, so i should think that a Maul chained with dice mastery and Checkmate could deal a plenty of damage like in this case, just the last two questions... there is should be no weapon limitation to the Metahand right? so even a archer specialized character could make the metahand right? When using Maul the archer has shooted three arrows, for example, assuming he hits 3 time or only one arrow?

A metahand with +0 on the modifier or a negative modifier on intelligence, will have die mastery number of usage equal only to his level right?

For the really last question, with Checkmate you can auto-confirm any Critical Threat you roll... but you also talked about a Threat of Death,which is tecnically lost when using Checkmate, what is exactly this Threat of Death? (i hope i'm not bothering with something i could just see on the 3.5 D&D manual)Velin 20 April 2009

Again, it's no problem man, and I'm glad to have helped. As for the question about the archer-metahand, of course it could be done, though, for the purpose of maul, it would work the same way, though, for the roleplaying purpose of how it makes sense, I'd say that all three arrows would hit the exact same point, driving in deeper each time. As for negative or +0 modifiers in intelligence, well, I'd say the class features dependant on it wouldn't be unusable, though, if a DM says otherwise, it'd be up to them. Threat of Death, well, I've just found out that that does not actually exist in D&D, and am about to remove that line, sorry for even having it up there :P. → Rith ^(talk) 14:57, 20 April 2009 (MDT)

Balance Issues

Also, fighters were given fighter only feats to add flavor and uniqueness, allowing "Fighter's Blood" removes that quality from fighter.

Inner Sight: In nearly all (read:all i am aware of) situations you add your int mod to your AC, it is limited to a max of your level in the class that gives it.

Maul: this needs a limit, as it is very powerful. For example, the Tarrasque has a DR of, i think 40, if you make 5 attacks, this equates to 200 damage ignored, you only that the DR hit once increasing your damage by 160! --Ganre 02:59, 27 March 2009 (MDT)

Well thats the thing, fighter blood states that their metahand level stacks with their fighter levels, it doesn't grant the feats by itself. It's also intended to make this class an option for character who might just want to get a few more original class features than "bonus feat", "bonus feat", "bonus feat", yet still want to get those pretty, "top-of-the-shelf" feats. Which classes are you looking at for the reference in your comment on inner sight? Cuase that might get changed then. As for your comment on Maul, I'd first off like to be informed on how you are dealing 40 damage a pop and getting 5 attacks at the same time, cause this sounds like one optimized [bleep]-er. → Rith ^(talk) 10:47, 27 March 2009 (MDT)

That's the fighter's problem for not being good enough, not the Metahand's problem. It has nothing to do with the balance of the metahand. Ignoring five points of DR is not overpowered. Surgo 13:10, 27 March 2009 (MDT)

Rith, the classes are Invisible Blade, Blade Singer, Duelist, a couple others. i agree, ignoring 5 points of DR is not, 1 per day be class level. ignoring altogether, is. I am not sure how many times i can say this:There are fighter feats in PHB2, only fighters can take them. It makes the fighter class unique. Taking that away is BAD FOR THE GAME. GIVING OTHER CLASSES THE ABILITY TO USE IT MAKES THEM NOT AS UNIQUE. sorry about the caps, but i am trying to convey a point, and you don't seem to get it, or you just skim past it. --Ganre 15:58, 28 March 2009 (MDT)

That is a pretty bad advice, also Rith is free to make his class as he please. Caps are not a civil to make a point. IT MAKE YOUR OPINION LOOK AGGRESSIVE. I might want to point the Warblade, a warblade gain a ability somewhat like fighter blood (warblade level -2). I might also voice my opinion, a class isn't balanced by "what it shouldn't be able to do" but rather by "what it should be able to do". Heed or ignore this opinion I don't care. --Lord Dhazriel 16:23, 28 March 2009 (MDT)

Ignoring altogether is also not overpowered. The Tarrasque is always something of a strawman example because it sucks hard, I'd only be worried if it proved to be problematic to a large number of encounters instead of just moderately helpful. Surgo 16:38, 28 March 2009 (MDT)

I caught your point Ganre, but you seem to have have missed mine. I stated that the characters metahand levels stacks with their fight levels, meaning that, in order to get those feats, the PC still has to have at least one or two levels in fighter, not to mention that there are only 10 levels in this PrC (before you get up to level 20, then you can start leveling it again), meaning that even fighters blood can only get you so far. I think Inner Sight may be about to be changed in any case, since you did provide a good few classes that provide a similar ability. Also, Ganre, please also respond in the discussion above too, if you would be so kind. → Rith ^(talk) 21:03, 28 March 2009 (MDT)

Rating

Power - 4.5/5 Balanced, very offensives but still not a defenceless character. Balanced. --Lord Dhazriel 11:54, 17 April 2009 (MDT)

Wording - 5/5 Perfect over here. --Lord Dhazriel 11:54, 17 April 2009 (MDT)

Formatting - 5/5 Everything in order, very good. --Lord Dhazriel 11:54, 17 April 2009 (MDT)

Flavor - 5/5 Good, very good. I am a man of a few words indeed. --Lord Dhazriel 11:54, 17 April 2009 (MDT)

One Possibility

I doubt you'd want to mess with the mechanics too much, but if you made the class such that the die size maximized was the same one that was rolled for the maximum damage prerequisite is would eliminate some of the disagreements about differing die sizes. If you did that you could have the metahand maximize so many points per day, say like metahand level * Intelligence, so that regardless of die size, regardless of their preferred weapons, all metahand's have the same maximization potential. I don't know if I worded that the best, but I hope you get the gist of it. -- Jota 07:05, 21 April 2009 (MDT)

Factotum

Just wanted to comment on how awesome this class looks--especially if you take it on top of Factotum. Factotum 8 / Metahand 4 with lots of Font of Inspiration? Yes please, since you can get TONS of SA dice with Cunning Strike and add on a number of attacks per round with Cunning Surge. All around, this looks like a great PrC. --Ghostwheel 08:13, 29 July 2009 (MDT)

Well thanks Ghostwheel, I am rather proud of this class after all. If you feel tempted to use it in one of your Optimizations, feel free. → Rith ^(talk) 08:22, 29 July 2009 (MDT)

While on one hand the possibilities do interest me, I'm a little leery about optimizing 3rd party stuff; it's hard enough for players to get DMs to allow homebrew material, which makes the likelihood that people will use said builds (which are there so that people will use them) even lower... :-3 --Ghostwheel 22:43, 29 July 2009 (MDT)

A Singular Question, which suggests another

Is this where I would ask if I could make a class inspired by this one? I really love this class idea and would like to make a version of it that is a Tome-style base class. --The 42nd Gecko 22:04, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

The General Changes I would be making are these, Fighter's Blood would be removed, considering how feats work in Races of War. The fluff would change from "they focus on using the tools they are granted to the best of their physical ability. To the point that they can kill practically anything with even the weakest tool." To something more along the lines of "These warriors realize that there is an underlying pattern to battle, a system of mechanics that determines who is alive and who shall soon be killed by those who are alive. Thus, they seek to manipulate these mechanics to the best of their ability, dealing with a dagger the wound of a greataxe, with a greatsword the strike of three swords." I would add an ability that allows the Metahand to change the dice that their weapon uses and transform static +#s to damage into additional dice. I would remove Checkmate, because the Tome, Samurai already fufills the "Critical Hit Glass Cannon" role. I'd also be modifying the Dice Mastery ability to balance with the new ability that transforms static +#s to damage and damage dice. Maybe a few other modifications if I playtest and find the balance off.--The 42nd Gecko 00:35, 7 January 2010 (UTC)