Talk:Master Prestidigitator (3.5e Feat)

Feedback

Need some feedback on this feat. It is mostly a flavor feat for character development. --Calidore Chase 03:00, 17 November 2006 (MST)

Well... First off is the +1 damage or +2 to the DC permanently applied to every spell? If so this is very overpowered, as +2 to the save DC of every spell is extremely unbalanced. Also, the wording is a bit confusing... --Green Dragon 10:57, 17 November 2006 (MST)

Hmm, I was discussing the power of this feat with Xenophon and I had mentioned that the save dc may be a bit problematic. He had suggested that I make this add 1 to the spell slot level of the affected spell. I think I may go with a spellcraft check of DC 17 + Spell Levelx2. So that would make 0 level spells DC 17, 1st is 19, 2nd is 21, 3rd is 23, 4th is 25, 5th is 27, 6th is 29, 7th is 31, 8th is 33, 9th is 35. --Calidore Chase 11:13, 17 November 2006 (MST)

That still seems very overpowered. For example Spell Focus gives only a +1 save DC to a chosen school, this would give a huge plus to the DC of all spells. I think the spell DC Bonus either needs a drastic change or needs to be gotten rid of. However, the damage is fine, if possibly a little underpowered. +1 Damage to a spell would really not do that much (except for spells like Chain Lightning). So, the damage is fine, the DC is not. I would suggest something like: The caster gains +2 Spell Save DC on Prestidigitation, and +1 Spells Save DC on four other chosen spells. These spells must be chosen upon selecting this feat. Do you think this would balance it? --Green Dragon 11:25, 17 November 2006 (MST)

Hrmmmm.... or maybe spells of up to level 2 or 3 instead of specific.. Of course characters do tend to have a couple of favorite spells so this would hardly feel like a limiting factor... Maybe do the number of spells able to be affected based on their primary attribute modifier x 2 with a maximum level of 3... Need to find someone to play test this out. --Calidore Chase 11:39, 17 November 2006 (MST)

DC Mods Chart Below

Changes to Spell Save DC using Int 16

Spell Level	Normal (Normal DC) DC	Your 1st Method (Normal DC +2) DC	Your 2nd Method (17 + Spell Level x2) DC	Your 3rd Method (First 3 Spell Levels are Int Mod x2, then normal) DC
0	13	15	17	16
1	14	16	19	16
2	15	17	21	16
3	16	18	23	16
4	17	19	25	17
5	18	20	27	18
6	19	21	29	19
7	20	22	31	20
8	21	23	33	21
9	22	24	35	22

Problems:

Method 1: Overpowering, the DC becomes much higher than it should be. Please see Spell Focus for an idea of a normal feat that increases the DC, +2 DC for every spell is too much.

Method 2: Not that good... At lower levels this is amazingly powerful, the normal DC would be 13, this DC is 17. This defiantly is overpowering, but... At higher levels where a 30 Int (Mod 9) is possible, this is not quite as good, but still way to overpowering. The normal DC for a level 9 spell with 30 Int would be a 27, and this stays at 35 even with high Int. This is a disadvantage with this method, but the high DC easily outweighs the minus for not getting a bonus from Int.

Method 3: It is better than the rest by far, but still overpowering. With lower levels this is amazing. A 1st level Wizard would be overpowered by this DC 16 because a DC 13 is normal, the DC should not be increased 3 at 1st level. Also, this makes 0,1,2,3 level spells very overpowered at high levels. Orcs would not stand a chance, and they would have a very hard time making the save. Even more overpowering, at 30 Int the DC for a level 1-3 spell would be 26, better than the DC of a 9th level spell. This method is also overpowered.

Summary: None of these methods work, they all allow the DC to be to high. So, something must be done. Some ideas I suddenly had were making the DC have something to do with Spellcraft checks, as those have a limit to the amount of points that can be put into them. Your ideas? --Green Dragon 13:28, 17 November 2006 (MST)

Sorry wasn't clear. The second method is a spellcraft check to see if the person casting the spell can bolster it by using a prestidigitation to gain the +1 to the DC of the spell being cast. In other words, say a mage is casting charm person and wishes to increase the DC that the target has to surpass by using this feat. They would first need to make a spellcraft check of DC 19; not impossible for a first level caster but still fairly difficult since they would only have a spellcraft of probably max 7 ( 4 ranks plus a +3 mod for intelligence). so they would have to roll a thirteen or higher to beat the spellcraft check... Hrmm, on second thought that might still be too easy.... Maybe raise the spellcraft DC to base 20 + spell level X 2. So 0 is 20, 1 is 22, 2 is 24 etc. --Calidore Chase 20:02, 17 November 2006 (MST)

The chart should look like this....

Changes to Spell Save DC using Int 16

Spell Level	Normal (Normal DC) DC	Your 1st Method (Normal DC +2) DC	Your 2nd Method Spellcraft check to get +1 DC to any spell (17 + Spell Level x2) Spellcraft DC/Spell Save DC	Your 3rd Method (Choose Int Mod x2 #spells of up to 3rd Level to get +1 DC, then normal) DC
0	13	15	17/14	14
1	14	16	19/15	15
2	15	17	21/16	16
3	16	18	23/17	17
4	17	19	25/18	17
5	18	20	27/19	18
6	19	21	29/20	19
7	20	22	31/21	20
8	21	23	33/22	21
9	22	24	35/23	22

--Calidore Chase 20:07, 17 November 2006 (MST)

Okay... I like the third method, even thought it still may be a little overpowered. I would only recommend one change, and that would be to make the Spell Save DC become like the normal Spell Save DC with second level spells. Then, make a "Improved" version of this feat, and make that one apply up to fourth level spells. Finally, maker a "Master" (or something like that) version of this feat and make that one apply up to fifth level spells. Does this sound more balanced? --Green Dragon 19:54, 19 November 2006 (MST)

I like the second version myself. The power obtained from this feat is basically minimal, costs two feats, would use up any casters first two feats to get it as early as possible (1st level for humans - but think about what they are missing out on), and the enemies will be getting increasingly better at resisting as the caster goes up in level anyways. I personally believe this kinda balances out a weakness of the spellcaster class - there are few ways to increase the save dc of a spell and lets face it as you go up in levels it becomes much, much harder for your opponents NOT to succeed on their save. If you do want to use this to increase your save dc you also have to pass a spellcraft check. For now I'm going to change the stats to the second version. --Calidore Chase 01:26, 20 November 2006 (MST)

The problem that I have with this feat is that it can be easily misused. If this were a system like Rifts, that would be fine, but balance is important in d20. With this feat, and even with a fairly difficult Spellcraft save, the DC of spells can be made extremely high. For example, a third level human wizard who takes these two feats, and takes Skill Focus (Spellcraft), and with a decent Int (say 16), would have a +14 (6 ranks, +3 Int, +3 Skill Focus, +2 synergy from Know(Arcana)) to the spellcraft check (DC 21) to bolster the DC of his 2nd level spells of his school by +1 (to a total save of 16), a check that will succeed on more than average occasions. Thus, with a spell like blindness/deafness, even a character with a good fortitude save and a fairly high con score (say a 3rd level fighter, 16 con, fort save +6) would still have a barely even chance of defeating the spell; those with lower scores would be easily devastated (like all spellcasters, rogues, etc.). The difference this feat makes in that example is significant; with an (easy) spellcraft check, the wizard can increase the save from 15-- and a decent chance of success for someone with a 'good' value in that save-- to 16-- and suddenly that character, even with a good save, is suddenly failing much more often (50-50); other characters with less good saves are already forsaken.

This is even worse if the wizard waits until 5th level to take this feat, instead taking spell focus for their preferred school at 3rd (and this as their bonus feat at 5th). Then, their third level spells of their selected school have a save of 19 (10 base, +4 Int, +3 spell level, +1 spell focus, +1 this feat) after the wizard makes a spellcraft check of DC 23 (with a +17 on the check; 8 ranks +4 int +3 Skill Focus, +2 synergy from Know(Arcana)). So, as long as the wizard rolls a 6 on his spellcraft check, he can make the spell save DC be 19. At that point, even a good save will only be approximately +9 (+4 base for a good save, +4 ability modifier, possibly +1 magic modifier (i.e. from resistance spell, cloak of resistance, etc.)). Once again, this means that those characters that have the absolute best chance of resisting the spell will only do so 50% of the time. Without this feat, that would change to 55% of the time-- a significant difference, in a game where dozens of spell saves are made every level.

And, even more devastating, the wizard likely will have access to an ability buff (Fox's Cunning, Int +4), which will bump up the Spellcraft Modifier to +19 (against DC 23) and the Spell Save to DC 21! Once again, every time anything (like this feat) appears and increases the save DC, opposing characters are 5% less likely to make the save (the difference of rolling one higher on a d20). So, this could be fixed by making this increase to DC not stack with Spell Focus. For balance purposes, I would recommend this. But, on a different note, it is generally bad design to introduce a feat that must specifically not stack with certain things and that is otherwise very convoluted (i.e. having to make a spellcraft check to get the benefit of the feat... feats are supposed to be binary-- either you have it or you don't). Because of these restrictions, the feat is limited in use and is not widely accessible to most casters; in fact, because of how specialized it is, it will only likely be used in those very situations I outlined above, where a character tries to boost their Spell Save DC into incredible heights. I admit that I love the idea and the flavor behind this feat (and the other prestidigitation based ones), but I think it is unnecessarily complex and limited; if someone wants to specifically allow it in their campaign, and they know the potential drawbacks, that's great-- but I'm not sure it's fit for general use. --EldritchNumen 13:14, 20 November 2006 (MST)

You brought up some very valid blance issues, EldritchNumen. So, what do you think could be changed in this feat to make it more balanced and playable? --Green Dragon 22:14, 20 November 2006 (MST)

Suggestions II... Well, we still have Green Dragons suggestion about limiting it to a specific number of spells. This suggestion is not bad and I would throw out the spellcraft check if we went this route. Probably mix the limit to 3rd level spells and below with limited based on main attribute bonus for a +1 to the save DC. I would allow this to stack with spell focus, I mean after all the player is using to feats for this. Do you have any other suggestions? --Calidore Chase 00:09, 21 November 2006 (MST)

Hm... I would say limit it to second level spells (that still includes 0,1,2). However, would you then make more feats to make the DC go on for higher spells? --Green Dragon 15:45, 21 November 2006 (MST)

Might have to change the title for that :) What goes beyond master? Sublime prestidigitator? Would they then get +2 to damage if they chose that option? --Calidore Chase 17:34, 21 November 2006 (MST)

Sublime should work... However, I think the Damage choice should be +2 Dmg for this feat, as +2 Damage still does not compare with +1 DC for level 0,1,2 spells, and +4 damage for the sublime version. Finally the sublime version should only do 0,1,2,3,4 level spells. None higher as this still might be overpowered. Also, EldritchNumen, does this way seem more balanced? How could it be improved? --Green Dragon 21:25, 21 November 2006 (MST)

I could go for the base damage change. I'll switch it over to this version and add the Sublime Prestidigitator Feat. --Calidore Chase 23:57, 21 November 2006 (MST)

Yes, this way is much better. Splitting the feat and limiting by levels is the best choice. -EldritchNumen 14:07, 22 November 2006 (MST)

And, is it balanced with the first feat doing spell levels 0,1,2, giving a +1 DC or +2 Damage. Then, with the second feat doing spell levels 0,1,2,3,4, giving +1 DC to these levels, or +4 Damage? --Green Dragon 16:26, 22 November 2006 (MST)

General Feat

I changed this to a general feat. Most metamagic feats have level adjustments. This does not. Most metamagic feats change the fundamental behavior (game statistics) of a spell. This does not. Metamagics are applied to one spell at a time, while this involves any spell that you know. This is more akin to Spell Focus in its behavior. --Dmilewski 07:04, 12 July 2007 (MDT)