Talk:Manifesting Warrior (3.5e Class)

Still transposing from Psionic Naturalist. Fixing formatting on the way. --Sabre070 03:11, 17 April 2008 (MDT)

Almost done, need descriptions and balancing ideas. --Sabre070 17:10, 17 April 2008 (MDT)

Need to add extra information about "Lore" and "in the Game" --Sabre070 18:19, 17 April 2008 (MDT)

What does "EL whatever" mean? How detailed is the "Sample Encounter" supposed to be? --Sabre070 04:58, 19 April 2008 (MDT)

Overpowered

this is way overpowered. is gives a +11 mind blad, while soulknife gives +9, this gives full bab, 5 bonus feats and all 4 of the wepon focus/spec feats, evasion and improved evasion, gets free, armor and best of all a 200 foot (perfect) fly speed. the only thing from soulknife it gives up is mind strike (and related features), and the whirlwind attack thingy. that is most definitly not a fair trade. Zau 03:31, 21 May 2009 (MDT)

I agree it is grossly overpowered, what do you suggest? --Sabre070 04:38, 21 May 2009 (MDT)

It's not overpowered. Soulknife is horribly UNDERpowered. Using Soulknife as a comparison point is about as useful as using Commoner. Dragon Child 10:01, 21 May 2009 (MDT)

I disagree that soulknife is underpowered. A Soulknife 15/Illumine Soul 5 can get 6d8 bonus damage or deal 6 damage to an mental ability no save every round, and its not precision dmg and affects everything but constucts and objects (Illumine Soul lets mind strike affect undead, i assume that lets knife to soul affect as well). as to suggestions, i dont know of much you could do ta make it balanced w/o making the same as soulknife. Mabye make it so you have to pay for a ritual to enhance your weapon and armor. that would make it just something that cant be destroyed or taken away, and not free. the fly speed thing should have a limit on how much use per day and on the speed. i suggest start a lvl 5 with 10 ft speed perfect +10 every 5 levels use lvl*(wis+1 min 1) or something. one of the saves needs to go to bad. the bonus feats have to go. with getting the focus/spec feats in addition to a feat every 4 levels, this gets almost as many feats as a fighter. i suggest take all the feats out but give the focus/spec feats at 1, 5, 10, and 20th levels. the timeless body doesnt make sense, just take it out. evasion and full bab is odd give it slower, evasion at 9th, improved not at all or at a high level (so no dips for full bab and evasion). id sugest get rid of multiple throw mabye even throw mind blade at all, to focus on melee. Have the material armor be like the enhancement, pay for a ritual for a certain mtrl (only pay once for both) and can meditate for 1 hour to change it to any cheaper one (ie pay 4k (or watever the cost is) for addy, then meditate to make your armor mith, keep the sword addy). whit these changes, instead of being like a soulknife, with a bunch of $ not spent on magic sword can buy ring of evasion or whatever (basicly extra $$ is a class feature for them) this has to pay for his blade, but gets full bab and all of the foc/spec feats as well as a couple of other class features but gives up mind strike. Zau 05:56, 23 May 2009 (MDT)

You're talking about 6d8 (average: 27) bonus damage at level 20 as being a big thing? Rogues get 10d6 (average: 35) to every attack, and can make those attacks as touch attacks, elemental attacks, and all sorts of other things. And that's without getting into different PrCs and feats. If the PrC doesn't get throw mind blade OR weapon proficiencies, it's nearly unplayable due to having no ranged attacks to speak of. And if you're paying for the armor upgrades, you need to give a TON of other class features. Dragon Child 14:50, 23 May 2009 (MDT)

Yes a rouge can get more bonus dmg, but at high levels half the stuff is immune (ooze, constructs, undead, anything with no descernable anatomy, anything with trueseeing at will etc) mindstrike affects everything but undead, constructs and objects, and illumine lets it affect undead. so if a game includes a balance of many creatures, the soulknife will deal more damage overall. also, how does the rouge qualify for SA, you need to fient (a move action with a feat) or bluff to hide (a move action with a feat) or flank, which is hard to do w/o provoking AoO from powerful stuff (not good idea). the soulknife gets throw blade before you can qualify for a PRC. the point of paying for the upgrades is that otherwise you have more money to spend on random magical items in addition to big majic weapons. Zau 19:35, 5 June 2009 (MDT)

I'm not familiar with "Illumine". Non-XPH? If it is, then the rogue has a wand of gravestrike. He can sneak attack undead now, too. So no, the soulknife would not deal more damage overall. Trueseeing at will doesn't prevent sneak attack, either. Rogues can qualify for sneak attack quite easily - flanking is VERY easy to do with tumble without provoking AoOs due to the fact that the DC is static (DC 25 only, come on), hiding isn't all that difficult against enemies with low spot and you can just go around hidden and use the sniping rules which are very nice, a ring of blink guarantees you sneak attacks at high level, or you can just do something as simple as a wand of grease. Dragon Child 08:06, 6 June 2009 (MDT)

Its complete psionic. the rogue still cant GARUNTEE his SA since there is some check (all except for tumble an OPPOSED check) other than the attack roll: have to bluff vs. SM + BAB for fient, bluff vs SM to create diversion to hide, hide-20 vs spot to snipe (good luck with that against anyone with a wis score and ranks in spot), all soulknife has to do is burn a move action. also, the rouge has to make a UMD check to use wand, what happens when you roll nat 1. if you dont think this class should be compared to soulknife, lets try comparing to fighter. in exchange for 2 feats (fighter gets 11 this class gets 9) this class gets evasion, improved evasion, good reflex save, timeless body, free +5 armor and a free +10 (equivalent) weapon, and just for kicks give it MS, hide, Spot and listen as class skills (imho you cant go wrong with ranks in spot/listen). there is no possible way to claim that that is an equal tradeoff. Zau 08:07, 11 June 2009 (MDT)

oh forgot to mention, soulknife has better HD than rogue, so more HP. also, this class gets d12 HD on top of all the other stuff i mentioned, making it even more OP.Zau 08:10, 11 June 2009 (MDT)

Burning a move action is HUGE. That means you're not getting any full-attacks that round, remember, and even the fighter can out damage your pathetic bonus dice then. And natural 1s don't automatically fail on skill rolls. The fighter, too, is outright underpowered. Compare it to a rogue, a druid, or a cleric. Compare it to a class that can actually contribute. Dragon Child 13:32, 11 June 2009 (MDT)

(reseting indent) Rogue cant full attack either, takes a move action to qualify for SA unless flanking, and with the flankee, he can take 1 5foot step (if medium or smaller) so you have to move 10feet (no full attack w/o a bunch of munchkining) to flank. also rogue still cant SA oozes at all, and if your DM pays attantion to "need to be able to REACH vital area" cant really SA anything huge or larger (good luck stabing in heart when heart is above your vertical reach). as to comparing this or fighter to casters, a melee class shouldnt be compared to a wizard or cleric, it should be compared to another martial class. compared to a full caster, any other class is weaker except for endurance. a full caster is useless after a while because you have no spells left. if martial classes were as powerful as a rested up wizard, they would all be incredibly OP since they would ALWAYS be as powerfull as a wizard with a bunch of ninth level spells availible. also, part of fighter etc job is "standing in front of people 101". good luck casting spells while being grappled by red dragon the fighter is standing up to. you obviosly havent read UMD description, it specificly says nat 1 is autofail and cant use that device for rest of the day. Zau 13:49, 11 June 2009 (MDT)

No, it doesn't take a move action to qualify for SA unless flanking. You can be hiding. Or using a wand of grease. Or be invisible. Or using a ring of blink. And you forget the fact that if you're flanking, your ally can just take a 5-foot step, too. And the use of words like "munchkining" show that you don't actually care about balance, only insults. And oozes are not that critical of a foe. They're extremely rare, and usually very easy to beat with hit and run tactics when possible. When that's not possible, it's usually because of a trap type feature, in which case you want to be... a rogue. In addition, there are plenty of vitals below the heart - your legs and ankles have a ton of arteries and such in them, and monster size doesn't prevent just using one of the MANY things I've already mentioned and just throwing acid flasks (which are touch attacks, too!). Endurance is not all that big of a problem. The fighter is underpowered. If someone wants to write up a new class, he should NOT also aim to make it underpowered, just because the fighter is. That's silly. In addition, your horrible strawman of "a fighter needs to be as strong as a fully rested up wizard all the time!" is silly. I didn't suggest that. Don't make things up. And no, YOU obviously haven't read the UMD description. It says:

"Try again: Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can’t try to activate that item again for 24 hours."

That's not "If you roll a 1 you fail", that's "If you roll a 1 AND you fail." You'll note that the UMD description proves what I said was true. Dragon Child 13:57, 11 June 2009 (MDT)

i said munckining to refer to certain ways that you can take 2 5ft steps in a round. you are corect about your ally 5ft steping, but that doesnt work if you go first (he can 5ft to flank, but your turn is over, so unless hes a rouge all he gets it +2 to hit) and the umd checks. and when you say the fighter is not as powerful as a wizard "a fighter needs to be as strong as a fully rested up wizard all the time" is exactly what you mean the fighter should be. there is no way to make the game balanced with the 2 classes were one of the has unlimeted ability to fight, while the other runs out of spells. if a class is martial and can fight all day, it needs to be balanced compared to fighters, rangers, etc. not wizards and clerics. Zau 14:05, 11 June 2009 (MDT)

also, how does a wand of grease let you SA, and anything with blindfight, blindsight, tremorsense or trueseeing makes being invisable not let you SA, uncanny dodge makes anything but flanking not work. "A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach." "vitals" would means vital organs, i think, and vital organs one huge+ creatures probably are out of reach. i realize a lot of these things are pretty situational, but put together there is a good chance that whatever your fighting could be immine to SA. Zau 14:31, 11 June 2009 (MDT)

Comments and Problems

This PrC is overall underpowered, but has a few major flaws.

• Weapon and Armor proficiency calls the class "Psionic Naturalist" (I realize this is a transposition error, you may want to use Ctrl+F in the future) and gives them NO proficiencies? Really? This guy can't use a club, or a dagger? Give them light&medium armor and simple&martial weapons, even if they won't often use them.
• At level 1, you don't get anything interesting. You get a shortsword and breastplate, and can throw the shortsword. That's it. That's boring.
• The +1 per 4 levels enhancement to weapons and armor is too weak. A cleric with some of the MANY caster level boosting items can do better than that. At the very least, you need to be able to match the cleric's progression, or your class feature doesn't exist, especially as the cleric can do that for the rest of his party.
• This class is outright screwed against early incorporeal creatures. Shadows can appear at low level. You have no way of even beginning to harm them until level 4.
• Mind Blade Enhancement table and chart don't agree. You skipped +4 on the table.
• Mind Blade Enhancement ought to just allow any ability you want, except perhaps Bane. There's nothing overpowered about Flaming, or Shocking, and it would still be in-flavor, as psionicists tend to be more focused on elements than their wizard counterparts.
• Multiple Throw - does this work with Two Weapon Fighting? Can I not use Rapid Shot with this? Why not? How does this work with the "only one mind blade manifestation per round" ?
• Bonus Feats need to specifically say that you must have the requirements for the feat. Unless otherwise EXPLICITLY stated, you do not need the requirements for a feat to take it as a Bonus Feat.

This class still needs something to spice it up. What does it do in combat? Stab and stab and stab and stab? Give them some neat psionic abilities that change how they fight, make them do more then just melee stuff! Also, spread out those bonuses. Giving a feat and a mindblade enhancement AND a +1 to mindblade all on one level, and then having multiple empty levels before and after is boring. It's more fun to get something every level, even if it's something small by comparison, rather then get it in huge chunks. Dragon Child 10:03, 21 May 2009 (MDT)

Ctrl+H is the replacement feature. --TK-Squared 10:06, 21 May 2009 (MDT)