Talk:Luchador (5e Class)
From D&D Wiki
Yeah, I'm not sure what the "Bonus Feature" is referring to either. I just made myself a PDF of this page to refer to in my next game, and I just deleted it. --Cidermancer (talk) 10:02, 1 February 2016 (MST)
By Bonus Feature, I meant to say Bonus Feat
- That's a lot of bonus feats; this is reminiscent of 3.5e as to how powerful this class can be. Like, Great Weapon Master at level 1, Lucky at level 3, Mobile at level 5, Sentinel at level 7, with the option to ignore an Ability Score Improvement to take a feat for a total of 15 feats possible. That's pretty insane. Can you remove those Bonus Feats? They defeat the balance 5e is built around.
Good point, I was trying to make it something akin to Fighter, but that is probably too many feats.
Improved Combat Grappler
Since grappling is a key feature of this class, it might be best if you read the rules on grappling. There's also some English language issues:
- Finesse is a weapon property. A grapple is an Attack action. In any case, this doesn't work, as a grapple check is an Athletics check.
- "during your bonus action" - you do things with your bonus action, not "during".
- "incur the restrained effect" - restrained is a condition, not an effect. "Incur" is a penalty you apply to yourself, not other people. Ignoring balance issues for a moment, this should be something like "You can use your bonus action to pin a creature you are grappling. A pinned creature is subject to the restrained condition until the grapple ends."
- "You are not considered restrained or impaired in anyway when grappling an opponent," - when you grapple a creature, you are not restrained or impaired anyway.
- "You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when attempting to grapple. " - Firstly, 5e has "opportunity attacks", not "attacks of opportunity". That might sound pedantic, but this tells me that someone is thinking in 3.5e terms instead of 5e. Secondly, grapples already do not provoke opportunity attacks. Again, this is 3.5e thinking.
- "1 non lethal damage. " - 5e does not have nonlethal damage. Again, this is a 3.5e term. Marasmusine (talk) 04:06, 6 March 2016 (MST)
"You are not considered restrained or impaired in anyway when grappling an opponent," - I was under the impression that this meant two different things:
- 1. Normally, your movement is halved when you are grappling someone. This could be considered an "impairment". Due to this feature, you can use your full movement speed while grappling someone.
- 2. Secondly, when you pin someone, both the opponent and you are considered "restrained" causing many to question if pinning someone is even worth it. Due to this feature, only the opponent is considered restrained.
That was my interpretation of it anyway. -8 March 2016
Thanks, and yeah, my friends have been playing a lot of 3.5e so I'm far more used to that system then 5e, any help with numeral values and better ways of explaining would be great.
5e Changes and Suggestions for the Luchador
I would be more than happy to help out if you'd like. I've been playing through a campaign using this class and I've been loving every second of it so first off I'd like to thank you for making this. I wouldn't mind putting these all in myself so you don't have to. Now onto some 5e changes:
Hit Points: This class is similar to the barbarian in the fact that they are both tanks that don't wear armor (Luchadors aren't even proficient in it). However, barbarians get 1d12 for their hit dice to make up for this. I would bump up the Luchador's hit dice from a d10 to a d12 to match the barbarian since they function so similarly.
Skill Proficiencies: I would change this to "Athletics then choose two others: Acrobatics, Intimidation, Performance, Persuasion, or Religion". The reason being that in 5e, Athletics is THE grappling skill. It's pretty mandatory for this class. Equipment: In 5e, a "component pouch" is used only for spell casting so that could be removed. Also, there is no "Adventurer's Pack" in 5e so I would change this to "Entertainer's Pack".
Protect the Mask: Honestly, this one could stay as a numeric modifier as it's quite frankly the easiest way to do it. I strongly urge you change it back to how it was before though. "The Luchador gets a +15 perception modifier that can't be prevented by any means, magical or otherwise. Even while sleeping, this status remains and only stops when the luchador has been knocked out or killed." I think this is better because it's supposed to be near impossible for a luchador to be stripped of their mask without their knowledge. The way it is now, all you need is some jerk rogue in your party to roll a decent slight of hand check and now you have to go on an entire spirit quest to get your mask back. The mask is their identity!
Finishing Move: Instead of having all of these negative attack roll modifiers if the opponent isn't grappled, just say, "Finishing moves may be used on opponents that are not pinned, restrained, or stunned, but at a disadvantage."
Adept Wrestling: Again, the numeric bonus is the easiest way to do it. Just remove that final line about the extra attacks thing as I'll get into that below.
Extra Attack: In 5e, there is no penalty to grappling two creatures and you can grapple creatures up to one size larger than you. You would probably use your first attack to grapple a creature, walk over to the second one while holding the first, and then grapple that one too. I would say "At Luchador Level 5, the Luchador can attack twice, instead of once, whenever they take the attack action on their turn."
Las Garras de los Muertos: This is really good but I would also add "Your unarmed strikes count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage." It prevents the luchador from being shut down by physically immune enemies and really fits with the theme of this ability.
Bonds of the Luchador: The only distinction that needs to be made is that each of these abilities are used "As your reaction".
Awareness of the Mask: Just say, "At Luchador Level 13, the Luchador's attention to protecting his mask has grown him attune to sensing the very world around him. The Luchador gains advantage on any attempt to protect his mask and they can no longer be surprised. Additionally, your initiative is increased by +5." I added that initiative part back in because of how essential it is for a grappling character to have their turn near the top of the order.
Grappling Savant: In 5e, there are no "penalties" in regards to grappling creatures of a larger size with the exception of only being able to grapple creatures of 1 size larger than you or below. Adept Wrestling already improved upon this by saying you can grapple creatures up to two sizes larger than you with advantage on creatures 1 size larger than you so this ability would add onto that. I would say, "At Luchador Level 14, the Luchador has such an extensive knowledge of different types of grapples, that they can restrain any challenger regardless of their size. The luchador gains the ability to grapple creatures of any size and can now grapple creatures up to 2 sizes larger than them with advantage.
People's Champion: In 5e, there's really only 3 modifiers in regards to damage: Vulnerable (Take double damage), normal (Take the damage normally), and resistance (take half damage). But giving the luchador damage reduction on everything seems a little too strong so I propose the following change: "The Luchador gains resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, slashing, and falling damage. Additionally, when the luchador is in combat and takes damage from an attack that deals a type of damage other than those four, he may use his reaction to become resistant to future attacks using that type of damage. If he gets hit by a different damage than the one he is currently resistant to, he may swap to that one instead. The luchador may only have one of these "special" resistances active at a time and the resistance ends once combat does."
Ultimate Finishing Move: I think this is more in line with 5e: "At Luchador Level 18, the Luchador picks one of his special moves and it transforms into his Ultimate Finishing Move. Unlike Finishing Move, there is no disadvantage if you attempt to use this ability on a creature without restraining, stunning, or paralyzing them first. However, if the creature is 2 or more sizes larger than you, this penalty still applies. Whenever he uses it, the opponent must make a strength or dexterity saving throw of 8 + proficiency bonus + your Strength/Dexterity Modifier + your Charisma Modifier. If they fail, the Luchador deals 10d10 bludgeoning damage to his enemy as well as becomes both grappled and restrained. If they succeed, they take half damage and must roll again to avoid being grappled by the incoming Luchador, albeit with disadvantage on the grapple check roll. The Luchador may do this equal to a quarter of their Luchador rounded down. Unlike Finishing Move, this ability's charges still get expended whether or not it kills. The Luchador may only use this one time per combat."
Dios de la Lucha: The only sentence that needs to be re-worded should read like this: "At this point, the Luchador can grapple any and all creatures of any size with advantage."
WAYS OF THE LUCHA
Crowd Favorite: I would add back the 3rd option of "Gains advantage on the next roll of their choice" but make it that they must use it on their next turn.
Fearful Appearence: The enemy would have to make a wisdom throw equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier.
Vaya con Dios: The enemy must make a Constitution saving throw (or Wisdom saving throw if they are frightened) equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength/Dexterity modifier. This ability can be used as either an action or a bonus action.
Underhanded Tactics: The opponent must make a wisdom saving throw equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier. You may attempt this as many times as you want during combat but after successfully performing it once, the enemy gains advantage on all other saving throws towards it.
Spirit of the Mask: If a marine animal, the Luchador gains a swim speed equal to their movement speed, can hold their breath for up to 10 minutes, and does not have disadvantage on attacks while in water. If an avian creature, you can use your reaction when you fall to reduce any falling damage you take by an amount equal to five times your luchador level. Also, you make a running long jump or running high jump after moving only 5 feet on foot, rather than 10 feet. If a fast land creature, the Luchador gains +15 to their movement speed and when the they make a melee attack against a creature, they don't provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn, whether they hit or not. If a strong slow land creature, you have advantage on any and all strength checks and strength saving throws, and you are considered one size larger for the purpose of grappling creatures and carrying capacity.
One with the Ancestors: Everything here is good except it would be a bonus action, not a free action.
Spirit Ring: All enemies that try to enter or exit must roll a wisdom saving throw equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma bonus or be knocked prone by the watching spirit crowd.
I hope this all helped! Thank you so much for this class! -10 March 2016
Thank you for all your help, I hope you are enjoying the class as much as I had fun making it.
Crazyevilbob, you say the Luchador does too much damage for the amount of damage resistance it gets, but what of a barbarian, yeah sure, barbs have to rage to get their resistances, hence why it is a long while before they get that free resistance. Also, their damage is rather meph compared to other classes and also puts them in a lot more danger. I made the Luchadors have NO ranged attack abilities, without a decent amount of health and resistance, they would go into the fight, then get one shot because they have to be balls deep in the fight to actually do anything.
This class is nowhere close to a Barbarian, this class is closer to a monk than any other base class. Monks are also the first to run head long into the fight and go fist to sword with opponents, the main difference between this class and the monk though is that this class has no form of Ki it can call on to help it. This class would benifit from gaining something close to Evasion that the monk has, maybe add it to "Awareness of the mask" and change the title of the feat to "Awareness of Self" because most Luchadors could not get to the point they are at without first knowing their full limits and being able to escape or dodge certain moves that would completely demolish them. As for ranged weapon attacks that applies to most classes and thus is why you have a TEAM. The Luchador shouldn't have to take out any Archers or spell users because other players in his/her party should have his/her back to the point the Luchador doesn't have to worry about it. It also makes no sense for a character to suddenly just gain resistences to every type of physical damage with no cost to it, however if the character steels their body and focuses for a turn or before combat then it would makes sense because they are focused on blocking that pain. Moving on to damage, at lvl 8 the luchador can do 2d10's of damage. 2D10's! That doesn't even include the damage modifier! That damage is outragous! If we look at a Barb at lvl 8 they are likely to deal out 2d6's with a greatsword. The only thing that could come close to the amount of damage this attack does is if a Fighter had a weapon that did 2d6's of damage and he decided to expend a Superiority Die to gain a 1d8 to damage but even then that boost is only from the Battle Master Archetype. I'm not saying to take away this feat I'm saying that it does outragous damage. Moving on to somthing else I believe that the luchador should have the ability to make an unarmed attack as a bonus action if he/she has the monster grappled. This is just due to the fact that Improved Combat Grappler reminds me of the feat Grappler. While we're on the topic of Improved Combat Grappler it makes no sense how you could use Dexterity for grapple checks. On pg 195 of the Official Players Handbook, and I quote, "Using at least one free hand, you try to seize the target by making a grapple check instead of attack roll" a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Arcobatics) check." Now what exactly does this have to do with anything? To answer that let's look at pg 176 of the PHB for edition 5, "Acrobatics. Your Dexterity check covers your attempt to stay on your feet in a tricky situation, such as when you're trying to run across a sheet of ice, balance on a tightrope, or stay upright on a rocking ship's deck. The DM might also call for a Dexterity check to see of you can perform acrobatic stunts, including dives, rolls, somersaults, and flips." The reason the opponent can use Dexterity to try and break a grapple is because he/she is trying to wiggle free from the grapple, however when it comes to grappling no matter how many dives, rolls, somersaults, or flips I do that won't help in my ability to grab something and hold it. While we're on the topic of feats that don't make a lot of sense, how about Unarmored Defense for this class? How does Charisma add to your armor? Are you very nicely asking the opponent not to hit you that hard? It would make more sense if the unarmored defense of this class was 10 + your Str/Dex Modifier + your Con Modifier, Dexerity for if you're more nimble and dodge out of the way or Strength if you just take the blow straight to your pecs and the sword shatters on inpact.
I want to keep Awareness of the Mask the way it is more so Luchadors aren't crippled easily. Do note that they instantly lose 2 levels when they lose the mask, just outright. If the modifiers for that aren't high, then all it takes is one asshole rogue in the party to get a decent roll check and puff, neutered Luchador. As for the resistance, I was more so thinking of a way for Luchadors mitigate damage, but now that you say it like that, it would probably be for the best to change it, but not only for fall damage because then that hurts any Luchador that isn't going down the Tenicos line of it. How about I give them evasion similar to that of Monks, but better since it is far down the line? Something like any spell or ranged attack can be dodged if they get a successful dexterity saving throw plus that resistance buff?
I will nerf the damage on Finishing Move though, didn't think it was that how with the penalties I put on top of it.
Well, I was think of Arcobatics more so in a way of knowing where exactly to hold someone down to keep them grappled. Even smaller people can get someone in a proper headlock and keep someone many times their size bound.
Hey, if it works, I don't see why you can't ask them to stand down or hit you lighter? On a semi serious note though, the reason I said Charisma was to be more in line with their showboating nature or using their own self pride to keep them going.
Is the finishing/special move just given as long as the creature is pinned? What would you roll to have disadvantage? Is it another contested strength check? Does that mean the Luchador has advantage? I'm confused about nothing being able to stop a finishing move on a medium creature if the luchador is medium. I think that function could be spelled out a bit more?
-Additionaly: I'm also imagining that these moves are like suplexes or dives from the ropes or such. Does that mean that the opponent would lose pinned status? Or is it more like a slamming them to the ground. Seems hard to imagine exactly what is happening. I love that I as the player can customize what I'm doing to make it look like or call it, but I want to make sure that when I use this ability I'm doing it correctly :)
You will still have to roll to normally do the attack, just as you would with any other, but without penalty from them not being pinned, sorry, I will make that more clear. As what I mean, in most cases, people would have trouble lifting someone their own weight, then suplexing them or etc, with the feat, it is more or less saying, weight has no affect on handling your opponent.
As for what is happening, no, they are still considered pinned normally, but if you wish, since this game is all about imagination and having fun, you can make it so you break the hold and thus their restrained status, but in the case of a suplex, there would be no reason to break the hold as you are still holding them, just doing an attack before hand.
El Garras de los Muertos
The current wording for El Garras de los Muertos is too broad and doesn't apply to most forms of magical travel, as spells like misty step, dimension door, and teleport do not involve traveling to another plane. We also ran into trouble in a campaign when a Luchador got an amulet that let him cast etherealness on himself. He was able to step into the ethereal plane, pull whatever we were fighting onto the ethereal plane, and then step back to the material world. If the creature wasn't able to shift planes it was basically an insta-win. I think the ability to should be reworded to function like the 4th level spell dimensional anchor, as I believe thats more inline with what the author was trying to accomplish with this ability. The creature being grappled also should be entitled to a save each time they try to magically escape, making it a contest between the Luchadors power of Lucha and the casters strength of magic. Since a wizard can cast 4th level spells starting at Level 7, I think leaving this as a Level 6 ability is close enough for balance.
Here's how I reworded it for our campaign:
At Luchador Level 6, the Luchador becomes truly aware of his hertiage and lineage in the worlds of Lucha. Whether by a vision, a revel, or anything else, the Luchador was given power by his ancestors to allow him to physical handle the ethereal. A creature you are grappling must make a spellcasting ability check with proficiency contested by the Luchadors Athletics or Acrobatics check in order to use a spell or magical effect such as *astral projection*, *blink*, *dimension door*, *Drawmij’s instant exit* (q.v.), *etherealness*, *ethereal stride*, *gate*, *maze*, *misty step*, *plane shift*, or *teleport* to escape the grapple. It also prevents creatures from using native abilities, such as a blink dog’s or balor’s teleportation. This does not work against creatures that are already ethereal or astral, nor does it prevent extradimensional perception or attack. This ability does not stop summoned creatures from vanishing when the spell that summoned them ends.
Your unarmed strikes also count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage
Good idea, never really thought about how it could be used to abuse fights like that, will change asap.
- Makes reference to a "Drawmij's Instant Exit", but provides no link to any such spell. SirSprinkles (talk) 21:30, 27 October 2016 (MDT)
I was looking at this class and I noticed on the progression chart it has Ring Fighter listed at level 10, but no mention of it...was it something forgotten or was it something removed?
It has been removed, was too situational and decided to change things around so that it is no longer needed.
I think the base for this bonus should be 10 instead of 13. When armor abilities use two stats, the base is usually 10 (for example, Barbarian's and Monk's Unarmored Defense). Only when just one stat is added is the base 13 (such as Dragon Sorcerer's Natural Armor).