Talk:Knight of the Moon (3.5e Prestige Class)

Zau 23 October 2014

Please discuss changes on the talk page before making them.

• Exchanging spell levels doesn't work because of the +1 to both at 10th level, and the existence of other thaumaturge classes; it would be possible to gain spell levels in excess of your own because the combined spell casting levels exceed your character level. Regardless, I tweaked the way it worked originally to result in no losses of either spellcasting.
• Mount or Familiar are not central to the class, so leaving them out is a balance choice (see how most spellcasting PRCs don't stack familiar bonuses, and a lot of paladin-ish PRCs lose stuff like turn undead or the mount). There could be a feat made (if there isn't one already) to allow the player to designate his mount as his familiar (in a similar vein to the other multiclass feats from such splatbooks as Complete Adventurer).
• The Arcane Blessing ability is meant to make up for the lack of armor that a gish has, so they are not meant to gain unhindered armored spellcasting as well; using mithral light armor is the most they should. This is also a personal choice; I dislike classes giving abilites like that at so late a level; by level 15 you will have already invested in some form of protection, so armored casting will either be wasted (you don't suddenly ditch your current armor and buy full plate) or gimp the character prior to it's acquisition (you invest in armor you can't cast in, until all of a suddenly you can).
• Swift Blessing needs limits; quicken is a +4 adjustment for a reason. Zau (talk) 22:28, 23 October 2014 (MDT)

Full spell-casting is a no-go; this class has multiple abilities to help it thrive in melee, as well as advancing paladin spellcasting; all in exchange for two levels of spell-casting compared to an Eldritch Knight, and with /more/ spell-casting than a spellsword. I've tweaked the paladin stacking; you can chose mount OR turn undead, and you automatically get lay on hands. I'm thinking of adding an ability at level 5 or 6 that grants extra effects based on your choice (like your integrated mount/familiar) and something using turn undead (maybe expend turns to overcome evil outsiders/undeads resistances with a spell?). Putting them at that level to ensure the character actually /has/ them by then; we have to assume that a character could enter this class with only 1 paladin level. Zau (talk) 08:12, 15 November 2014 (MST)

RockJockey's Considerations

Howdy Zau,

I realize that this is prestige class is something that you started and you do not want it to be manhandled. August 2012 was the last time you made a meaningful edit before seemingly abandoning the page. In November 2013, I under the IP,‎ 98.248.100.141, started doing work on the page because it just needed some love, some fluff, and some abilities reworked. I'm not sure why you left the class unfinished and in a poor state for over a year, but I understand less why you keep reversing some of my edits. It is like clockwork the way you swoop in and start hitting the undo button as hard as you can every time I try to fidget with the class.

If you were so keen on actually working on the class, you would be editing on your own initiative instead of waiting for me to do the legwork first.

Please stop reversing my edits nearly every time I come in and change things around. I understand you want to talk on this discussion page, but I don't work like that. I'm open to having a discussion on functionality and aesthetics after the fact. But I'm not going to submit possible changes to the discussion page and wait for approval. I'm not going to claim that all of my edits are 100% great, but I cannot make progress without getting some work down in the first place. This class would not be nearly as playable or functional or thematic if it were not for the work I have done, so give me some slack.

This class is nearly complete as far as I can tell, it just needs some fluff and such. The class abilities may need some tweaking still though. Please be patient.

Sincerely, talk) 23:11, 28 January 2015 (MST)

Post Script: Stuff that Zau could work on

• Knights of the Moon in the World
• Knight of the Moon Lore
• Sample Encounter

Zau's response to RockJockey's Considerations

So you want to change things as you like, but you want me to discuss your changes on the talk page before changing them (back to) the way I like? And the reason I didn't really edit it much until you started was that I was okay with where it was as far as usability was concerned, and the same after each edit exchange; I've already out all my thoughts into it, so the only thing that makes me want to change how the class works is someone else suggesting something (or just editing it in...). Basically, I'll be fine with it, you change something, then I see both your way and my old way and figure out either a better way or that I like one of them better and either change it or leave it.

Thanks for the fluff help (I know that I'm bad at that) but I'd debate whether the class was less playable or functional before your help. I'd used the class already in one short campaign, and it worked, though I imagine it might have been confusing for someone who hadn't made the class (the 'half this' and '1 less of that' crap).

I like most of the changes, and I think the class is better now, but I'd still like to work with anyone trying to change things. I'd rather discuss what you, or anyone else, thinks needs work in the class. ex: You say "Integrated spellcasting is wonky, technically a downgrade" or something, and suggest some changes, I try to describe what I'd envisioned for the feature (instead of just what the mechanics were) and we hash out something that looks and works better than before. The changes to Lunar Strike and Arcane Blessing, for example, look really good; the abilities are functionally almost the same, but the wording is much clearer and more concise, with some minor functional changes that actually make Lunar Strike better. However, your initial changes to them made some of the abilities almost completely different; it had essentially no restrictions, since it didn't lose an attack even when first gained, and it only tried to deliver the spell once. That made it more risky to use since you could more easily lose the spell, but also made it less detrimental to spam it since it doesn't cost your attack chain anything on a miss. At the same time, I like that we've replaced the "expend turn undead" ability; it never really fit but I added it to fill more space in the class. Instead she gets a synergistic Extend Spell feat

I haven't actually flat out reverted your edits (IIRC), only put back in features that you changed into something I didn't like or didn't think worked, for example your first major edit replaced Integrated Spellcasting with something that could be overpowered; a KotM who got in with 1 paladin level and the rest sorcerer would have had, once she got that feature, spellcasting level equal to her character level, while gaining BAB, HD, and class features superior to that of a sorcerer. In fact, a lot of my changes have been modifications to abilites you added that I liked in theory, or was at least okay with. For exmple early in the editing we ended up removing the ability to have blessing effect allies; you added in an ability to have it effect adjacent allies, and I changed it back to be more similar to the original ability by making it attach to the allies you effect with a multi-target spell. Zau (talk) 11:34, 28 January 2015 (MST)

Sincerely

Thank you for the rather even-headed response. Sorry for grousing, but I was irritated. I'm glad you like my decisions on getting rid of "Expending Undead attempts for X benefits" to open up room in the Kit.talk) 23:11, 29 January 2015 (MST)

Arcane Blessing

"the per-level limit on arcane blessing is important to prevent gaining significant advantages from a 1 level dip" -Zau

• 1: I seriously doubt anyone is going to multiclass Paladin and Sorcerer just to get a level 1 dip out of this prestige class. It would put the sorcerer behind in spellcasting, and the Paladin behind for a multitude of reasons. If dipping is such a problem, perhaps we should increase the requirements necessary, although I would rather keep it open. That being said, why does it matter if they do dip?

• 2: The benefits of Arcane Blessing are moreso for spellcasting so that the PC does not have to wear armor. By making it 1 point bonus per 2 class levels, it does not offer enough protection to sufficiently shield the caster at early levels for the PC to engage in melee combat.

• 3: I'm debating whether Arcane blessing should only apply its benefits against evil creatures. This would be thematically in line with a paladin. This limitation makes sense considering Smite Evil only works on Evil creatures.

Zau's response to Arcane Blessing

• 1: It only takes one paladin level to qualify for the class. I like leaving options open to get into a class; I'd rather give multiple option to get in and encourage people to take the class in full rather than dipping through useful, spread out class features than by punishing requirements. If a character was planning to go gish anyway, they could take Pal1, Sorcerer X, KotM1 to get arcane blessing, and then go into Eldritch Knight or another gish PRC for it's class features. Since EK requires martial weapon proff, all that's really lost is the fighter feat if they'd taken fighter instead of paladin. That's also why the class advances Paladin spellcasting at level 1; it means you have to give up a second (or more) spellcasting level just to start the class. Basically, I believe that scaling abilites throughout the class is the best way to discourage dipping. Zau (talk) 11:34, 28 January 2015 (MST)

• 2:There are other methods to provide protection than Arcane Blessing; the caster would presumably be using some of them already or they wouldn't have survived to take the class in the first place. Bracers of armor, natural armor or deflection AC magic items, and even the un-buffed versions of Shield and Mage Armor. +1 AC at first level in the class helps, and it advances quickly with level. Basically, I'm trying to avoid the issue that the Monk class too often sees; it gives two feats, a bunch of saves, +3 to all saves, and full Wisdom to AC in the first 2 levels, and then fails to give much more for the next 8 levels. It makes it a very attractive class for dipping without trying to be 'a monk' in the slightest, but is a poor class to actually try and take 10 or 20 levels of. On the other hand, classes like the Duelist (regardless of whether the class is good otherwise or not) don't have that problem because the same 'stat to AC' ability is spread out and capped (and the cap at 10 levels is enough that it takes serious effort to reach, so I doubt the lvl 10 cap is what keeps people out); if the Duelist gave full INT to AC at first level, I bet a lot of casters would find a way to give one level to it for the survivability boost. The other issue is that it would make the ability essentially get worse over time; uncapped you get it at level 6 and can easily be get 3-5 AC out of it, which is a big difference when you where floating around 18-20 before, but then as you get closer to level 20 it becomes 5-7 AC out of more like 40 AC (with full itemization for AC and abilities). By spreading it out you make it so there's no quantum leap in AC, and it is more useful with more levels.Zau (talk) 11:34, 28 January 2015 (MST)

• 3: I think I may have had that penciled in at some point and then dropped it. If we were to add it, I'd say to go with half effect on Neutral, no effect on Good. Maybe make the AC always apply, but the damage is only applied against Evil (and half against Neutral). Zau (talk) 11:34, 28 January 2015 (MST)

Zau on Self Buffing

Also, you pointed out in the combat section that they could cast 3 spells at once using rapid and swift blessing; I hadn't intended that option, and it could be overpowered (and it would be a good nerf to run with an offensive buff). So I'm thinking I want to restrict the KotM to only use one of them in a given round; it's still really good to move, buff and attack at once, or buff twice and move, or full attack and buff, but no buff, buff, buff. Zau (talk) 11:34, 28 January 2015 (MST)

RockJockey on Entry Requirements

One idea would be to hike up the requirements to get in, and give it dual spellcasting progression, like mystic theurge. Just remember that the higher the requirements, the more the spellcasting progression will be held back.talk) 23:11, 29 January 2015 (MST)

Current entry requirements breakdown

• Paladin 4/Sorcerer 1 = Gets KotM at level 6: 2nd level paladin spells at Char lvl 12; 2nd level sorcerer spells at Char lvl 10
• Paladin 3/Sorcerer 2 = Gets KotM at level 6: Never gets paladin spellcasting; 2nd level sorcerer spells at Char lvl 8
• Paladin 1/Sorcerer 6 = Gets KotM at level 8: Never gets paladin spellcasting; Already can cast 3rd level spells

Zau on Entry Requirements

With how weak paladin spellcasting is, we might be able to get away with giving it a little more Paladin, while keeping the sorcerer advancement the same, to be honest. Maybe give it 5/10 paladin and 7/10 sorcerer. Paladin would be every odd level, sorcerer would miss 1, 5, and 9 (that way it still advances one or both at every level). That keeps it from being to Theurgy (especially since paladin spells aren't much to write home about) while giving it a reasonable amount of paladin casting.

Also, regarding the entry reqs; I may have worded it wrong, or it might have gotten changed, but this class is meant to stack with paladin levels even if they don't have paladin spells; if they go in with <4 paladin levels, each "+1 paladin spellcasting" will count until she reaches a total of 4 and gains paladin spells. ex. If you go into KotM at Pal 2/Sor 4 (2nd level Sor spells already), at level 4 in KotM (10 total, KotM 4/ Pal 2/ Sor 4) she'll cast spells as though she's a 4th level paladin (2 paladin levels and 2 "+1 paladin spellcasting" from KotM). That's how it's meant to work with LoH, Turn Undead, and/or Mount as well, by the way. I'd have to check, but I think there may be a precedent for doing things that way. Otherwise you'd have to either wait a long time to get in or go in with very little sorcerer levels (pal 4/5 and sor 1+) to get all the needed paladin features, and that's pretty punishing since this relies on spells; 2nd level sor spells at level 10 or so? I'd also like to keep the entry req's a little more open than that so people can chose how they like to come in; are they a sorcerer who discovered their calling to be a paladin (come in as sor 4/pal 2 or sor 6/pal 1) or are they a knight who discovered their dragon blooded ancestry (pal 4-5/sor 1-2)? Zau (talk) 18:45, 29 January 2015 (MST)

RockJockey on Superfluous Class Abilities

Be careful about overloading the kit with abilities. It already has quite a few. A prestige class is suppose to enhance features already established, or support new and different types of gameplay patterns. However, you do not want to fall into the trap of trying to make the class do everything. This class is neither a full-blown Sorcerer with all the proper feats and spells to blast enemies to smithereens. And nor is it a full-blown Paladin that is the absolute bane of evil creatures. It's a mixture of both that must make appropriate compromises between the two kits, otherwise it would supersede both.(talk) 23:11, 28 January 2015 (MST)

Zau on Superfluous Class Abilities

That actually brings up something else that might help fix the "too much stuff" issue; I'd been thinking of making some multiclass feats anyway, maybe I could fold that into those instead; "Devoted Mage" could give the some of the spellcasting boost needed instead (and merge familiar and mount bonuses, as Devoted Tracker does for Ranger/Paladin). +1 spell DC against E/C outsiders and undead, merge mount/familiar, and allow free multiclassing? Seems about inline with Devoted Tracker; merged mount/companion, free multiclassing, and a third ability.

Zau on Offensive Spellcasting

I've noticed that there isn't really anything to help the class in offensive spellcasting, which could be an issue since giving up spellcaster levels will be hurting it already. I'm thinking of adding something to give improved spell DCs against Evil creatures, or a penalty to their saves (functionally the same, but not thematically; probably a DC boost), or a way to overcome damage resistance/immunity. It could also be a good way to bring the two spellcasting types together in some way at an earlier level. Maybe something at 6th level (since all she gets there is a smite). Almost like a divine metamagic.

Example:

• She can expend 1 spell level worth of divine spells for a +1 DC to her arcane spell against Evil targets
  • Allow the +1 DC to be applied up to two times, and the two can be used at once

• She can expend 2 spell levels worth of divine spells (so a second level spell or two first level) to halve the resistance or immunity of an evil (or chaotic?) outsider to the damage.
  • If they're immune they take half damage, and if they have resistance their resistance is treated as half that (so 15 becomes 7 or 8).

• Both the +DC and the resistance halving can be used at once, allowing up to 4 spell levels (so a 4th level spell, or a 2 and a 2, or whatever) can be used to apply up to +2 DC and halved resistance/immunity (or +1 DC and halved res/immune for 3 spell levels, of course).

I'll have to come up with the proper D&D-speak for it, but what do you think?

===RockJockey on Offensive Spellcasting===talk) 23:11, 28 January 2015 (MST) I have a simple solution to your 'offensive spellcasting' dilema as far as resistance/immunity go.

• Give the class either 'Energy Substitution' feat, or
• Make their damage dealing spells deal half of their damage as holy damage or positive energy damage.

Zau on Offensive Spellcasting Numero 2

Both of the options you propose (energy sub and making the damage half divine) are probably more powerful than what I proposed; both essentially allow her to bypass anyones energy resist. I think tying it to her divine spells and making it only bypass the resists of a paladins biggest enemies (undead and evil outsiders) is pretty balanced and flavorful. The extra paladin spellcasting will help her to afford to use it as well. Might give up Divine Blessing as well in exchange for something.

And in fairness, gishes do need some significant advantages to overcome the difficulties inherent in their dual nature; look at some of the existing gish PrCs like Abjurant Champion or Swiftblade. I fully realize that it's not a full caster, or a full paladin/fighter; I just want to give it something to help it's offensive spells remain relevant. Low DCs due to low spell levels and not being able to fully invest in CHA is going to hurt damage, as is the lower caster level for level scaling spells.

Combat Casting and hardened casting should make casting defensively virtually un-fail-able with reasonable investment (and she should have a decent CON score as well). Maybe add back in the duration spell restriction to rapid/swift blessing again as well in compensation (no fast cure spells).

One option would be to tie it to Turn Undead and give another feature to paladins who chose to advance mount instead; something to do with mounted charges, probably. How's this: Mount-advancing palidens get something letting them use Lunar Strike on a charge (and getting a charge bonus +2 to spell DC [only against E/C outsiders/undead?]), and add Turning Paladins can expend turns to overcome half of energy resistance/immunity of undead or E/C outsiders. That takes care of one weakness of underleveled spellcasting, and they can take a feat for the other if they want to/have room (energy substitution or spell focus, basically).

RJ on Rapid/Swift Blessing, Harvest Moon/Arcane Bounty, and Offensive Spellcasting

Previously, Rapid Blessing allowed one to cast buffs spells as a move action and Swift Blessing allowed one to cast buffs spells as a swift action. Because of the way the round works, 1 standard action, 1 move action, 1 swift action (or immediate action), saying that you cannot use Rapid Blessing and Swift blessing in the same round (one as a move action, and one as a swift action), is arbitrary. It goes against the rules set up by the game. I'm fine with reducing it to buff + buff in one round, but as far as class progression goes and mechanics, it doesn't make sense to have both abilities in the kit. This is a definite buff to have that ability earlier.

I changed Harvest Moon's name to Arcane Bounty because of nomenclature. Mechanically speaking, I made it more functionally usable, i.e. you can cast a limited duration spell on an ally, rather than having to cast one that affects you and allies. User friendly.

Offensive Spellcasting... You seem pretty hell bent on adding back in a way to shred your enemies resistances. Understandably, offensive spellcasting is going to be really held back by the spell progression plus entry requirements, so actually hitting you enemies with spells that have saves will be pretty hard. A way to buff DCs might be in order.

Again, as far as resistances go, I still insist on having KotM being able to change the damage their spells deal or have their damage dealing spells deal half of their damage as holy damage or positive energy damage. If a KotM really wanted to, she could simply take the Consecrate Spell feat, a simple feat. To incorporate this into the kit would be thematic and from a power perspective, it would not be too powerful.

For Example, a feat you can take if you are Good.

• Consecrate Spell (Complete Divine, p. 79) [Metamagic]
• Benefit: A spell you modify with this feat gains the good descriptor. Furthermore, if the spell deals damage, half of the damage (rounded down) results directly from divine power and is therefore not subject to be reduced by resistance or immunity to energy-based attacks. For example, a consecrated fire storm spell cast by a 16th-level cleric deals 16d6 points of damage, half of which is fire damage and half of which is sheer divine power. Thus, creatures immune to fire still take damage. The consecrated spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.--RockJockey (talk) 13:50, 1 February 2015 (MST)

Zau on Rapid/Swift Blessing, Harvest Moon/Arcane Bounty, and Offensive Spellcasting

The reason for the change to limit Rapid and Swift blessing is actually somewhat enshrined in the rules; there is a limit to one quickened spell per round. In fact, IIRC prior to the introduction of swift actions, quicken was a free action, which is what forced that limitation; they don't want people casting more than two spells in a round. The limit actually prevents potential breaks withing the lone abilites as well; I know of at least one way to get an extra move action, which would allow two spells cast with Rapid Blessing otherwise (without having or needing swift blessing. Having both is still an advatage because you are limited in your usage of Swift Blessing; Rapid Blessing has no such limit. Swift Blessing is meant as an upgrade to Rapid Blessing, more or less.

And yeah, Consecrate Spell seems to be a fine way to do it. Maybe we could add it as a class requirement? Combat casting at first level, Consecrate at 3rd or 6th. Neither actually requires spellcasting to take, so it shouldn't slow down entry in any way. Maybe give it a class feature to expend paladin spells for a free consecrate. The issue with metamagics is that spontaneous spells require a full round action to cast with metamagic. Might need to add a note into Lunar Strike stating that metamagics can be used as long as the base cast time is 1 standard action. Maybe restrict the metamagic to half-class level? "You may apply metamagic feats you know to spells you cast using Lunar Strike without increasing their casting time. You cannot apply a metamagic feat in this way that increases the spell level by more than half your class level." Then at 6th level give them the ability to sacrifice Divine Spell slots to apply Consecrate Spell to her arcane spell, as well as other metamagics as long as she also adds consecrate.

• You can give up one spell level worth of paladin spells (one first level spell) to apply Consecrate Spell to a spell you cast (can be used within Lunar Strike) without increasing the actual spell level
• You can give up three spell levels (a first and second, or a third, or three first level spells) to apply both Consecrate Spell and Empower spell without increasing the actual spell level.
• Consecrate Spell must be one of the metamagics applied; you can't just give up two spells to apply just Empower (partially balance, partially thematic justification for saccing divine spells for metamagic).
• You cannot sac more spell levels than you have paladin spell levels (you can't sac 3 spell levels worth of 1st and 2nd level spells if you don't have 3rd level spells)

Also, can you go through and sign your comments? I'd kinda like to re-organize the page into proper thread form. Zau (talk) 10:43, 1 February 2015 (MST) I added sections to the page already, if you really want to organize it more, go ahead.--RockJockey (talk) 13:50, 1 February 2015 (MST)

RJ on PrC Design Philosophy

After having allowed the Pr class to sit for a while, I am seeing major problems with it. Hybrid classes suffer from schizophrenic class abilities. Combining paladin and sorcerer is like mixing oil and water. Neither class has any common grounds where making a union would make sense. Especially complicating the issue is the spellcasting progression. Paladins do not necessarily need any spells in order to function. Sorcerers are very dependent on spellcasting progression, even missing out on 1 spell level sets them back extraordinarily in comparison, to say the least of multiple missing spell levels required by this class. Perhaps it would be better to turn this into a base class. Or combine the sorcerer or paladin side with a different base class that would mesh better.

Mixing magic and melee is messy, usually one is only able to do one or the other. And having both elements being really good invalidates the base classes.

Paladin: Divine Caster Melee Fighter Buff Support Healer Alignment Restrictions Special Mount

Sorcerer: Arcane Caster Backline Artillery/Support "2nd Rate" Wizard

See, the thing is that roles are not set in stone, especially for spellcasters. An arcane spellcaster can be a buff support and/or a close-in nuker/warrior with the right spell selection. There's even a 'Martial Arcanist' sorcerer ACF, along with a bunch of frontline focused spellcaster feats (combat casting, battlecaster offense/defense). Replacing Sorc or Paladin as one of the entry base classes isn't doable; the entire purpose of this class is a fusion of the two, at least in part because of their seeming disparity. And yes, a pure sorcerer has more game-breaking potential than this class, but that's not the point of this class, or many other gish PRCs, for that matter. Gishes aren't meant to give the "batman wizard" a run for their money, they're meant to be exiting to play; they have a lot of okay options that they can blend into an effective whole. They allow you to powergame a build/character progression without breaking the game, since you're taking a concept that doesn't work very well, and putting a lot of work into making it good, instead of taking something good and making it brokenly overpowered. A wizard can break a campaign in half with a minimum ammount of work (just pick the right spells, no need to multiclass, PRC, etc), but building a gish (even using the base eldritch knight) requires more effort just to be playable. Which is the point. 107.223.190.208 07:08, 1 May 2015 (MDT)