Talk:Hidden Archer (3.5e Prestige Class)

Bows... AND crossbows ?

Personally, I'm questioning that *bows only* restriction for this Prestige Class ? Crossbows can work just as well for it, I believe.

Basic Crossbow Data
Crossbow --------------------- Cost -------- Damage ------ Critical ------ Range Increment ------ Weight
Crossbow, heavy -------------- 50 gp ------- 1d10 -------- 19–20/x2 ------ 120 ft. -------------- 8 lb.
Crossbow, light -------------- 35 gp ------- 1d8 --------- 19–20/x2 ------ 80 ft. --------------- 4 lb.
Crossbow, hand --------------- 100 gp ------ 1d4 --------- 19–20/x2 ------ 30 ft. --------------- 2 lb.
Crossbow, repeating heavy ---- 400 gp ------ 1d10 -------- 19–20/x2 ------ 120 ft. -------------- 12 lb.
Crossbow, repeating light ---- 250 gp ------ 1d8 --------- 19–20/x2 ------ 80 ft. --------------- 6 lb.

And, they almost all have a decent Range Increment for sneaky-sniping stuff. Even the Hand-Crossbow can technically work with the appropriate feat(s) (namely the Hand-Crossbow Focus and the Crossbow Sniper feats), plus it's easier to hide than a bigger Crossbow or a Bow.

So... what I'm saying is : Crossbows(and their ammunition, bolts) could very well be integrated into this Prestige Class, no ? Just a few words to add here and there, maybe a few substitutions (like with 'ammunition' or 'projectiles', instead of just 'arrows'). Maybe add 'Proficiency with (Bow) or (Crossbows)' in the requirements ? Nothing revolutionary, but it would make the Prestige Class certainly more open/appealing to 'sneaky/hidden killers', which are I believe the intended target for such Prestige Class.

Rating 6/10

I rate this Prestige class as 6/10.

The basic power level is okay, but there are several game design issues. Some parts are just written too complicated.

Background fluff

Ahh, come on. "Nobody knows anything." Lame. At least try to create some background.

Prerequisites

"Point Blank shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot"... that's 4 feats. Unless you're human or take ranger or fighter levels, that means your 1st, 3rd, 6th and 9th level feat are already chosen. Also, you need 5 levels of rogue for the Sneak attack. But then Manyshot has a +6 BAB requirement, and Rogues only get BAB +3 in 5 levels... Tough.

Powers

Sniping (Ex): Good.

Arrow of Shadows (Sp): Too complicated. Just write "creating the arrow is a free action" and "targets hit by the arrow are considered flat-footed." Targets immune to Sneak Attack are immune even when flat-footed, that is always the case and there is no need to state it separately.

But then... if you can make the target flat-footed at will, you don't need to snipe anymore, so the sniping action is kind of superfluous... As a compromise, I suggest limiting this power to 1/day per level, and creating the arrow is a swift action. That way, the Archer still has to use sniping when he runs out of Shadow Arrows.

Seeking Arrow (Sp): Just give the "Improved Precise Shot" feat for free.

Ranged Death Attack (Ex): It says something about a saving throw against a paralysis effect, but there is no paralysis effect.

Improved Critical (Ex): Don't be so complicated, just write "receives the Improved Critical (short bow) feat for free".

Hail of Arrows (Su): Too complicated, and the cone is to wide. "Every enemy within a 60 ft. cone is dealt 2d6 damage from flying arrows, Reflex save for half damage." Just forget the rest, especially such unusual rules like adding armor bonus to a reflex save. --Mkill 23:38, 13 June 2007 (MDT)

Feel free to edit this - the author is no longer present on D&D Wiki and this needs help. --Green Dragon 12:26, 14 June 2007 (MDT)

Balance 6/10

It is an interesting concept, but more work should be done. They should be a dedicated order of some sort or something.

From my opinion the sniping ability isn't too bad, but adding that and the Hide in plain sight is a bit too much. I do think the requirements to qualify for the prestige class aren't bad at all. For a class like this it should be VERY restrictive as to when it can be taken, and the fact that you basically have to multiclass to get the class to come out just right in a reasonable timeframe is good.

I take it this was designed in particular for a fighter/rogue 5/3 or so to get in to, since that's close to what it would take to qualify. I thought it was horribly overpowered until I saw the prerequisites. I might add one more prerequisite, and that's to find/contact/be contacted by the hidden snipers order.

I think the Hail of arrows is an interesting idea, but it should be cut down in range for the cone spread, the adjustment should be dropped for armor check penalties (a fast person won't be wearing really restrictive armor most of the time anyway), but perhaps a note reminding people that towershields can protect someone to it. (Full defense with it is full cover, thus they can't get hit by arrows) I would probably simplify the damage a bit more. Saying something like they take a basic amount of damage (and if you truly want to keep the damage modified by size, make it double for large and larger creatures, or just say it can hit a single person in multiple hexes if they fail the save, thus making it so an ogre, gets hit by it twice. Even that may be too much though... dragonslaying arrow attack, much?) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 91.32.132.38 (talk • contribs) 12:52, 29 July 2007 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

I wouldn't say that Hail of Arrows is overpowered the way I re-wrote it. It does 7 damage average to a medium create. Even with +1d6 for each size class larger than Medium, it'd still only do 14 damage (on average) to a Large creature, max 28 damage. For an 18th level character (which is what you'd be once you get this ability), this isn't too unrealistic.--Othtim 14:09, 23 September 2007 (MDT)

2 more cents

Just wanted to add my two cents.

If I'm not mistaken, a character who put 10 ranks in Hide and Move Silently could qualify for this class at 7th level. The Shadow Jump ability is available at the 4th level of this prestige class - so the character would be 11th level. Compare Shadow Jump to an 11th level Dimension Door. An 11th level Dimension Door allows 840 feet of travel. I'd recommend boosting the distance to make it more on-par with Dimension Door - perhaps even farther, considering the restriction that the jump must start and end in an area of shadowy illumination. --Othtim 12:32, 23 September 2007 (MDT)

I went ahead and changed the Shadow Jump ability to make it more useful and on-par with Dimension Door of a similarly-levelled caster.--Othtim 12:56, 23 September 2007 (MDT)

I just realized that the original authors Shadow Jump ability is identical to the Shadowdancer's ability. I also think the Shadowdancers ability sucks. =/

Also, I think the feat requirements are too high. I'm gonna dump "Manyshot". I can see how it ties into the "Hail of Arrows" class feature, but still. I think there's just too many feat requirements for this prestige class...anyone with me on this? I'm gonna change some things over to Mkill's suggestions, if that's cool.--Othtim 13:05, 23 September 2007 (MDT)

So I changed up the Hail of Arrows ability to make it more concise. In keeping with the original author's intent I added +1d6 damage for each size class over medium. --Othtim 13:21, 23 September 2007 (MDT)

I have nullified these ratings since this class has undergone serious changes. I hope you do not mind. --Green Dragon 19:53, 23 September 2007 (MDT)

Rating - 210

This is far too over powered, although it is a good idea. This class is better than a rougue, instead you should alter it to be a rouge who wants to be a sniper.

1st : Change attack bonus to match rouge incement, skills list and points 6+int to match ninja etc, same fort etc.

2nd: Sneak attack increase bows only

3rd: Cut the extra abilities in half

Sniping (Ex): The Hidden Archer is used to step out of the shadows, shooting at a target precisely, and then to re-concealing herself before she can be identified. While taking the "Sniping" action (single attack), the Hidden Archer gets a bonus to his hide checks equal to her class level. In addition, the Hidden Archer can make ranged sneak attacks from within the range of +10 feet for every 3 levels of hidden archer (40ft 2nd, 50ft 5th, 60 ft 8th).

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A Hidden Archer can use the hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a Hidden Archer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She, cannot however, hide in her own shadow.

Darkvision (Su): Starting at 2nd level, a Hidden Archer can see in the dark as though she were permanently under the effect of a darkvision spell. 60ft +10ft per level

Arrow of Shadows (Sp): As the Hidden Archer is able to form shadows, he can create an arrow made of pure shadow, which is invisible for everyone except him, so the attack is inevadable. The Hidden Archer forms such an arrow as a free action. The arrow is dealt like a sneak attack, even if a sneak attack wouldn't be possible. However, creatures being immune to sneak attacks (such as constructs) are also immune to the special forces of an Arrow of Shadows, nevertheless they are considered flat-footed. Against them it's treated like a normal arrow. The Arrow of Shadows has to be used within the next round, otherwise the arrow dilutes. The Hidden Archer can use his own shadow to form one. For every 2 levels of Hidden Archer he can create one Arrow of Shadows per day. (so 2 on lvl 3, 3 on lvl 6, 4 on lvl 9, etc..)

Shadow Jump (Su): At 4th level, a Hidden Archer gains the ability to travel between shadows as if by means of a Dimension Door spell. The magical transport must begin and end in an area of shadowy illumination. A Hidden Archer can jump up to a total of 100 feet each day in this way; this may be a single jump of 100 feet or two jumps of 50 feet each, or some other combination (with increments of 10 feet minimum). Every two levels higher than 4th, the distance a Hidden Archer can jump each day increases by 50 feet.

Improved Precise Shot (Sp): The Hidden Archer gains the Improved Precise Shot feat.

Ranged Death Attack (Ex): Continuing his career as Sniper, the Hidden Archer knows the body well enough that he can fire an arrow to the deadliest spots. The Hidden Archer has to observe his victim for 3 rounds before the attack. While studying the victim, the Hidden Archer can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the Hidden Archer or recognize the Hidden Archer as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the Hidden Archer's class level + Dex modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the Hidden Archer. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the Hidden Archer has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds.

If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the assassin does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack.

Improved Critical (Ex): The Hidden Archer receives the Improved Critical (bow) feat.

The threat range for short bows is increased by +1 (thus making 19-20 / x3). This ability does not stack with the Feat "Improved Critical".

Hail of Arrows (Su): Does not match theme

ADD/SUB

protection/resistance from scrying Disruptive attack vs UNDEAD Disruptive attack vs Constructs

Rating

Power - <<<5>>>/5 I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<Helps with the lack of respectable archer classes. I would make prerequisites for hide and move silently at 13 so you can't begin class tier until lvl 10. Also, Weapon Focus with a longbow should be a prerequisiteOther than that, pefect. >>> --173.50.92.74 09:35, 13 May 2011 (MDT)

Wording - <<<5>>>/5 I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<>> --173.50.92.74 09:35, 13 May 2011 (MDT)

Formatting - <<<5>>>/5 I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<well done.>>> --173.50.92.74 09:35, 13 May 2011 (MDT)

Flavor - <<<5>>>/5 I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<There is nothing better than a badass archer.>>> --173.50.92.74 09:35, 13 May 2011 (MDT)

Rating

Balance - X/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because --67.197.62.204 17:54, 15 November 2014 (MST)

Wording - X/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because --67.197.62.204 17:54, 15 November 2014 (MST)

Formatting - 3/5 I give this class a X out of 5 because --67.197.62.204 17:54, 15 November 2014 (MST)

Flavor - 4/5 I give this class a X out of 5 because --67.197.62.204 17:54, 15 November 2014 (MST)