Talk:Hailstone (5e Spell)

As written, the Hailstone spell deals 2d10 bludgeon damage + 2d8 cold damage = 20 damage (on average), with min damage = 4 and max damage = 36, when cast at 2nd level, with an additional 2d8 = 9 damage (on average) per level above the 2nd.

This seems overpowered when compared to the standard Magic Missile spell that deals 4*(1d4+1) = 14 damage (on average), with min damage = 8 and max damage = 20, when cast at 2nd level, with an additional 1d4 + 1 = 3.5 damage (on average) per level above the 2nd.

Suggest changing the damage dealt by the Hailstone spell to 2d6 bludgeon + 2d6 cold = 14 damage (on average), with min = 4 and max = 24, when cast at 2nd level, with an additional 1d6 = 3.5 cold damage (on average) per level above the 2nd. This gives the Hailstone spell the same average damage as Magic Missile, but the Hailstone damage is slightly more variable. More variable damage seems appropriate for Hailstone, given that hailstones themselves vary in size, and Hailstone damage is composed of two different damage components, bludgeon and cold, which would tend to give more variation compared to the single damage component (force damage) of the Magic Missile spell. ProfessorBumblefingers (talk) 10:39, 13 August 2023 (MDT)

magic missile is actually below curve for damage compared to other 1st-level spells. This is because it's guaranteed to hit under normal circumstances, while most direct-damage spells — such as this one — cannot say the same. For a better 1st-level comparison, look at guiding bolt, which makes a ranged spell attack, dealing 4d6 radiant damage (14 average) only if it hits.

Also, hailstone is a 2nd level spell, which gives it more damage. If you look at this wiki's recommended damage table for a 2nd-level One Target (Save Negates Damage) spell, you'll see that hailstone is well within normal parameters. Endermage77 (talk) 14:06, 13 August 2023 (MDT)

First, thanks to Endermage77 for some very good points. I'm new to D&Dwiki and was unaware of the Spell Design recommended damage table--very useful, indeed! Reviewing the table brought up even more questions for me, so I went down a rabbit hole. I'll gladly remove the "Needs balance" template, but I'll add the following for those who are interested:

The D&Dwiki Spell Design recommended damage table (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Spell_Design_(5e_Guideline)#Damage) indicates that a 1st level spell vs. one target that does not get a saving throw should deal about 7.5 damage (3d4) on average, and a 2nd level spell vs. one target that does not get a saving throw should deal about 9 damage (2d8).

The Magic Missile spell (1st Level spell) that deals 3*(1d4 + 1) force damage, 10.5 on average, at 1st level plus an additional (1d4 + 1) for each slot level above 1st, or 4*(1d4 + 1) = 14 on average at 2nd level. Magic Missile has the special feature of not requiring an attack roll to hit the target; the target is hit automatically. The target of Magic Missile does not get a saving throw.

The Guiding Bolt spell (1st Level spell) does 4d6 radiant damage, 14 on average, at 1st level plus an additional 1d6 for each slot level above 1st, or 17.5 on average at 2nd level. Guiding Bolt requires an attack roll to hit the target. Guiding Bolt has the special feature of giving advantage on the next attack roll against the same target. The target of Guiding Bolt does not get a saving throw.

Surprisingly, both Magic Missile and Guiding Bolt appear overpowered relative to the spell Damage table on D&Dwiki (One Target, No Save column), because they do more damage at 1st and 2nd level than indicated in the table, and, furthermore, both spells have an additional special feature (automatic hit for Magic Missile, and advantage on next attack roll for Guiding Bolt).

As written, the Hailstone spell (2nd Level spell) also appears overpowered, as it deals 2d10 bludgeon damage + 2d8 cold damage = 20 damage on average when cast at 2nd level. Hailstone requires an attack roll to hit the target. The target of Hailstone does not get a saving throw. Unlike Magic Missile or Guiding Bolt, Hailstone does not have a special feature, unless you consider dealing two types of damage (bludgeon and cold) a special feature. If you assume that two types of damage do not qualify as a special feature, then Hailstone does not appear to be overpowered relative to Magic Missile and Guiding Bolt (which appear to be overpowered themselves), but it definitely appears to be overpowered relative to the D&Dwiki spell Damage table. ProfessorBumblefingers (talk) 08:14, 14 August 2023 (MDT)