Talk:Graveborn (4e Race)

Revenant

This race is very very very similar to the official Revenant 4e Race. Is this intentional or just happenstance? -- Sepsis 20:51, 7 October 2009 (MDT)

I am not a DDI subscriber, and so i have never actually seen the Revenant, though i'd heard of it. Any similarity is purely coincidental, probably arising from their both being an undead race. Techpriest 23:35, 7 October 2009 (MDT)

Featured Article Nomination

— This article became a featured article! --Green Dragon 10:38, 24 January 2012 (MST)

I find that this article is an acceptable featured article since it works correctly with the preload, 4e race design, and is complete. It does not have {{needsbalance}}, {{stub}}, {{wikify}}, {{wording}}, or any other related template problems. It is also interesting through the combat and non-combat situations in any game. --Green Dragon 10:38, 24 January 2012 (MST)

Not that I don't like this class, but is this how we're doing Featured Articles now? Are we going to nominate and approve in a single edit, with no time for discussion among the community? --Badger 11:28, 24 January 2012 (MST)

Not necessarily. I could not find anything wrong with this, so I nominated it. E.g. why should we wait for complete pages that are based off precedent pages? Do you see something wrong? I don't find it wrong if one notices the page is complete and it follows suit of precedent pages. --Green Dragon 11:38, 24 January 2012 (MST)

I don't have a grip on how balance works in 4e, but all these undead traits (no need to eat, breathe, or drink) makes this race quite powerful. Is that my misunderstanding of average balance on the 4e system, or has someone missed this balance concern? Also, "Though they have no need for sustenance food allows their undead form to re-knit itself in an imperfect semblance of life" isn't a coherent thought. I assume a comma should go in there after 'sustenance'. I also know that we've gotten in trouble with images before. Do we know the actual origin of this image? Can someone verify that it is actually public domain?

Those are my mechanical problems with the page as it stands. If we are providing comments on overall quality and concept, I have other concerns. The page doesn't seem to make it clear if this is a human corpse, or a corpse of another race. It gives stats that correspond with humans, but you get the racial options of your former race. Are there racial options you don't have access to because you are dead? Is that something you should bother listing, or does this show off my weak grasp of 4e? Is there a reason you get bonuses to Constitution? If anything, shouldn't beings made of decayed flesh and fungi be weaker? Can you elaborate on these whispers you hear as a Graveborn? They strike me as an interesting concept, and a great spot to show off the unique flavor I like to see in FA. It is defined, but not really fleshed-out to create an interesting story. With this, as most FAs, the keywords I want to emphasize are "flavor" and "uniqueness". This could use some more of both, especially flavor. --Badger 12:15, 24 January 2012 (MST)

From a 4e mechanics point of view, I can't fault this race (except for one minor niggle which I've fixed). The "undead" traits are reskinned from official "living construct" PC races such as Warforged (including "do not need to eat, drink, breathe or sleep"). The encounter power is not overpowered.

I'm no judge of fluff, but I'll note that there is some similarity with Revenants. The main difference seems to be that revenants are sanctioned by the Raven Queen, whilst graveborn have "escaped her clutches": The two would be natural enemies. Marasmusine 14:54, 24 January 2012 (MST)

I fixed the sentence you talked about above. Is it better now? About the image, yes. It's from Wikimedia Commons.

I cleared up the origin corpse and the racial options. I don't know if we should make the type based off the origin race. I assume that the Constitution bonus comes from the warlock aspect. Constitution has various uses in 4e, so I think it is okay with the favored classes options. I made the whispers follow some rules. Should they also be heard by other characters sometimes? Is it better now? --Green Dragon 15:03, 24 January 2012 (MST)

The exact wording that the revenant uses is: "Past Life [trait]: Select a race other than revenant. You are also considered a member of that race for the purpose of meeting prerequisites, such as feat or paragon path prerequisites." - I can only suggest using this same wording.

It's also interesting that the revenant has the undead keyword but is also "considered a living creature" - this must be for balance reasons (some effects specifically only target living creatures). I wonder what the ramifications would be for not having this caveat? I shall look into it. Marasmusine 15:15, 24 January 2012 (MST)

I fixed the wording for Past Life.

Powers and the like may only target living creatures. If races need to be within this classification then we should change this page to be living, however I do not know if they have to be. --Green Dragon 15:36, 24 January 2012 (MST)

Ok, so that whole "would probably be mortal enemies of the Revenants" is a really cool concept. The notion that Revenants are some sort of sanctioned undead types, and the Graveborn hate them? Awesome. Why isn't that mentioned anywhere? It isn't mentioned anywhere because we just decided it would be super cool. That is why these discussions are important. Featured Articles aren't meant to be "finished articles" they are meant to be "Super awesome articles with great flavor text, intriguing mechanics, and loads of fun options". Peer review is what gets us from "finished" to "awesome". --Badger 18:14, 24 January 2012 (MST)

Is that better? --Green Dragon 20:22, 24 January 2012 (MST)

I feel like this isn't as balanced as it use to be...

I know this has already been a featured article but I also feel like it isn't quite balanced.

First I don't think being able to ignore death saves is a bit powerful, perhaps you don't die when you fail 3 death saves? Perhaps they simply remain unconscious at negative HP?

Second Have resistance to two different damage types at 5 + 1/2 level seems like a bit much 3 or 4 + 1/2 level would be more appropriate and although not a huge difference it can have a large impact, especially at lower levels.

Third it just needs a choice for ability improvements like all of the cannon 4e races.

--Aitharious (talk) 07:34, 22 July 2016 (MDT)

I feel that these minor adjustments work well, and take the possibility of powergaming this race away. I think that it is fair to use the death saving throw a number of times per encounter equal to CL/2. Go ahead and change them, and if anyone else feels its wrong then we shall discuss it further. --Green Dragon (talk) 04:58, 23 July 2016 (MDT)

CL? I'm guessing that means class level from 5e, so can I assume you meant level instead? --Aitharious (talk) 20:09, 23 July 2016 (MDT)