Talk:Goblin, Variant (4e Race)

Goblin Sneak

The ability to re-roll stealth can be very powerful especially since a player will be able to determine what a "good" or "bad" roll is relatively easily. I would consider changing this to a feat. The rest of the race is fine by it'self in my opinion. --Aitharious (talk) 09:05, 13 September 2017 (MDT)

I can understand that, but it's similar to the Goliath racial ability that allows them to re-roll athletic rolls or the Mul ability that allows them to re-roll Endurance. This one is a bit weaker as you can re-roll it but have to take the second option, even if it's worse. JohnSmith82 (talk) 16:14, 13 September 2017 (MDT)

Difference is what they can re-roll though, sure athletics and endurance are useful, but they can't give you potential combat advantage or prevent an enemy from attacking you. --Aitharious (talk) 08:39, 14 September 2017 (MDT)

Even assuming we consider the skill to be more powerful, which we should assume that the skills in the game are equal (just like the abilities), this takes the second result even if it's lower, which makes it slightly weaker than the Mul or Goliath's power. JohnSmith82 (talk) 20:02, 14 September 2017 (MDT)

Goliath have roll twice for specifically jumping and climbing. Muls don't have a re-roll endurance trait at all, however they instead only need to sleep for 6 hours ever 72 hours. And again the goblin stealth is very versatile. A roll of 0-5 is likely worth re-rolling as you're probable to fail, and a roll of 15-20 you're unlikely to fail. So there is roughly a 50% window where it is a risk reward. Since most players know how stealthy they would need to be and there are no degrees of failure, only a pass or fail. It makes it be like taking either dice in probably 70% of situations. --Aitharious (talk) 07:49, 18 September 2017 (MDT)

Technically taking the lowest of the second result doesn't change the mechanical power of how powerful a power is, but players who know how to use it strategically can do so. Regardless it's weaker than the goliath or mul ability (the mul ability is from a feat), and is similar to other abilities by other races, so I feel it should be treated as the same. JohnSmith82 (talk) 09:34, 18 September 2017 (MDT)

It's been a while since I've played 4e, so I can only look at this from a 5e perspective. In 5e terms, Goblin Sneak is a permanent "advantage" on Stealth checks. This kind of re-roll is considered to be circumstantial (as it gives you roughly a +4 or +5 bonus, which is pretty high even though it doesn't increase the upper limit) and should be limited in some way: either by how often it can be made, or on a sub-set of the different uses of Stealth). Marasmusine (talk) 12:13, 18 September 2017 (MDT)

That's only true if you take the highest of either result rather than the second one, as the average roll for a D20 is 1 + 20/2, which is 10.5 or roughly a 10, and if you get to re-roll would average 10 + 20/2 = 15, which would be a +5 bonus. However, being forced to take the second result means that technically the roll is the same mechanically, as you don't get to take the average of the highest result, but have to take the second result, which would theoretically be lower, and thus it averages out to being exactly the same. The only difference is a strategic application by users who feel they want a better roll or are willing to take a risk (they've failed, but perhaps not as miserably). In essence, it already is weaker. On average, statistically, you are just as liable to get the same result as before. Erasing the old roll makes it the same, mechanically, although not gameplay wise.

As for calculations of the average dice, you add the smallest number you can get from a dice roll, usually a 1, plus the highest number, such as 20 on a D20, and then divide by two. So 1 + 20 = 21, or 10.5. When you re-roll and take the highest of the second result, you take the average dice roll (which is usually only slightly less than the average damage, or .5 less), and then add the highest damage on to that and divide by 2, so you would do 10 + 20 = 30, divided by 2 for 15. This works out for the Avenger as well, so 1d12 damage from a sword for example would be 1 + 12 = 13/2 = 6.5 damage on average for normal, and the avenger would add half the dice of a 12 (a 6), plus the highest dice, to do 6 + 12 = 18/2 = 9 damage on average, instead. You typically increase the damage by about 1.5, although you round down the damage by .5. As another example craghammer for instance, this would be 3 + 10 = 13/2 = 6.5, as Brutal 2 makes the weapon have a minimum damage of 3. The war-axe does 1d12 and thus does 6.5 damage (equal to a craghammer), and two-handed weapons do 1 more damage, or 1.5 damage. Anyways, we can see that mechanically, rolling a second time but erasing the original result statistically would result in exactly the same chances as before, thus not statistically increasing the likelihood for success at all, just the mechanics in terms of gameplay. It's akin to how a craghammer is equal to a waraxe mechanically even though you get to re-roll dice that turn up a 2 or lower.

To put it another, another way, the dice roll is not risk free. You may roll a second time and get lower and be stuck with it. This means you could do better on the second roll and possibly succeed on a failed roll, or do worse and have an even worse, catastrophic failure. Any d20, even if rolled a second time, has the same statistical chance of rolling as the first dice, so simply re-rolling but taking the second result ends up the same, mechanically as well. If strategically used by players of course they can figure out when the best time to take this gamble is, hence enhancing the gameplay, but not making the character more powerful, per say. JohnSmith82 (talk) 22:47, 18 September 2017 (MDT)

As you mentioned with the humans there is no critical failure, and 4e does not use any failure thresholds, as such a failure is a failure. This being said the second dice is a risk free re-roll for a roll the player knows is a failure. For a player who is new this trait could be essentially useless, for a more experienced player it will approach the effectiveness of rolling two dice and taking the higher. I'd say this could be anywhere between a theoretical +2 and +4 depending on player skill. --Aitharious (talk) 06:03, 19 September 2017 (MDT)

There are drawbacks, such as different effects for a lower skill check. A DC score of 25 may be needed to remain hidden, where as a DC check of 15 may be needed to achieve other effects and so on. I agree that an intelligent player can find a way to use strategically and probably would only use it when the price of losing isn't as severe. However, that comes down to gameplay, rather than raw mechanics, which means it's only useful if a player plays it right, and thus is an element to force the player to use it correctly, rather than just flat out giving them a raw bonus to the roll. I mean an additional bonus to stealth outright would be better, but the point is to make there need to be some kind of fun strategy for the player to make it more interesting.

JohnSmith82 (talk) 09:59, 19 September 2017 (MDT)