Talk:Fencer, Variant (5e Class)

Insight is usually a Wisdom skill, not an Intelligence skill. Also, what counts as a "long bladed weapon"? A weapon with a long blade or a weapon that is long and has a blade? SirSprinkles (talk) 17:31, 3 August 2017 (MDT)

Ah! you are quite right. I wanted an intelligence check with an applicable proficiency seems I wanted investigation and not insight. Insight, by definition fit the intended flavor of that skill but Investigation is more mechanically accurate. Changed. I also looked at the "long bladed weapon" bit there and the intent was to refer to swords in general and possibly polearms with long blades. I just removed the "long bladed" portion to reduce ambiguity and thought it would allow for more creativity. Nosedrool (talk) 17:53, 3 August 2017 (MDT)

I haven't touched this page in well over 2 years. But I figured I would both rework and reword most of it to be more consistent. Nosedrool (talk) 12:13, 4 February 2020 (MST)

Whoever it is just decided to make a class that does a ton of damage have a d8 hitdie. Feel free to explain your reasoning. I made it d6 for a reason. Nosedrool (talk) 15:09, 29 February 2020 (MST)

Skill Proficiencies

Does the Fencer gain proficiency with all skills listed, or were you only meant to select some of them? It's hard tell if typo or not.

It should probably say that you choose two of them. --PJammaz (talk) 06:47, 22 July 2020 (MDT)

I don't really remember what it's supposed to be. Either two or three of those. Nosedrool (talk) 14:44, 22 July 2020 (MDT)

Changes on 12/20/2020

I agree with most of the changes applied here but I am rewording the 13th level bonus to what I assume it's supposed to be.

Further, I will apply another rework to lunging strikes as impaling isn't in the sort of thematic of fencing.

Plus some minor corrections/clarifications.

Nosedrool (talk) 00:22, 20 December 2020 (MST)

Changes on 12/22/2020

I would like to ask for an explanation for such large changes being applied to the features of this class. Since they fundamentally affect its function (which is to be a melee glass cannon).

The change to lunging attack makes the least sense. Why does running at someone make it so "all sources" deal more damage? The idea of modifying the hit is that you're moving fast and so harder to dodge, not hitting harder. And why should this conflict with nimble attack?

Then there's the removal of extra attack. Do you think this means that nimble attack is always treated as multiple attacks for the attrition bonus? It isn't supposed to be in any case so I can clarify that if needed.

Also why would you upgrade weapon damage dice FOUR TIMES??? That's just obscene. You're not supposed to be hitting like a truck on each hit. You're supposed to be hitting multiple times for large damage.

Why is charisma one of the status improvement options?

I am reverting most of these changes (with some corrections/clarifications) unless I get an explanation.

Nosedrool (talk) 10:49, 22 December 2020 (MST)

I am going to revert these additional changes again until I get an explanation of why you are trying to slot in random abilities from other classes into this one.

Nosedrool (talk) 14:42, 22 December 2020 (MST)

Recent Changes

• Status improvement is a terribly underpowered feature. Replaced by the standard Ability Score Improvement.

• Changed mortal strikes to 17th level, to clean up space for the ASI (former status improvement) that was formerly given at 10th level.

• Changed the progression in Weapon Expertise.

• Simplified Lunging Strike to give advantage instead.

• Limited the bonus given by "Precision Bonus" to +2, in order to not break bound accuracy.

• Simplified the mechanics in Nimble Strike

• Changed the mechanics in attrition, and turned it into a core feature of the class, bringing it to the 2nd level.

• Give him a non-combat feature at 7th level.

Anastacio (talk) 20:47, 18 November 2021 (MST)

I agree with most to all of your changes except how you have Nimble Attack and Lunging Strikes currently working. At present, you're choosing between advantage (with some caveats/set up) or an extra attack in 99% of situations. I would revert Nimble attack or change what Lunging strikes does or is.

Perhaps as a simplification of the revert, Nimble Attack can be worded as: The first time you attack with a melee weapon on your turn you may choose to have that attack either gain the benefits of the Sweeping Attack maneuver (where the superiority die is a d6) or deal an additional d6 damage. Then perhaps, make Weapon Expertise increase the die sizes for Nimble Attack. Nosedrool (talk) 22:58, 18 November 2021 (MST)

I'm happy you agree! About Lunging Strikes, you are completely right, i forgot that both require a bonus action. My problem with just making something like sweeping attack maneuver is that is way to limited for a class that have a focus on DPR with not much hit points to toy with and poor versatility. My idea with Nimble Attack, and i want to hear your opinion on it, is create a feature that allow for this class to at least gain a huge deal of versatility in combat. Being able to attack with your bonus action without tying it to the Attack action, free the amount of Actions you can take. With the current wording, you could for example, take the Dodge action and attack in the same turn, or take the Disengage action and attack. That was the intention, make this class the "utility melee", in the same way a Wizard with his poor hit die is a "utility caster". What are your thoughts on that? Anastacio (talk) 13:05, 19 November 2021 (MST)

I see now what you're going for. For reference, I was modelling a certain amount of this class on a character from League of Legends called Fiora. Fiora has a passive that lets her deal bonus maximum HP damage if she hits specific points on her target, a lunge/dash that can attack, a parry, and an ability to attack twice in quick succession. These corresponded to Mortal Strikes (which used to add bonus damage of the same size as the hit dice of the target), Lunging Strike (hence the bonus to hit after moving 10 feet), and Nimble Attack. I don't recall putting in a parry effect into this class, but perhaps it's a good idea to look into.

Maybe a good idea is to make maneuvers into an intelligence splash for this class. Perhaps change Nimble Attack into something like this):

Nimble Combat Superiority (name pending)

Starting at 1st level, you have trained yourself to make swift attacks. When wielding a melee weapon in one hand, and nothing in the other, you can make an attack with that weapon as a bonus action.

You can't use this feature when wearing medium or heavy armor.

Additionally, you learn maneuvers that are fueled by special dice called superiority dice.

• Maneuvers. You learn a number of maneuvers equal to your intelligence modifier. Many maneuvers enhance an attack in some way. You can only use one maneuver per attack.
• Superiority Dice. You get a number of superiority dice equal to twice your proficiency bonus. These dice are d6s. A superiority die is expended when you use it. You regain all of your expended superiority dice when you finish a short or long rest.
• Saving Throws. Some of your maneuvers require your target to make a saving throw to resist the maneuver's effects. The saving throw DC is calculated as follows:

Maneuver save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier

If we went with that for Nimble attack, I would change Lunging Strikes to something like or literally just Cunning Action. So BA Dash, Dodge, or Hide.

Likewise, I would add a bullet point clause to Weapon Expertise that modifies the size of superiority dice Nosedrool (talk) 21:57, 19 November 2021 (MST)

I think adding sup dice to this class is fine, it is a bit under-powered anyways. However, this doesn't go against your intentions for this class, that is, being a ultra basic class with very few mechanics. I mean, you are the OP, but it seems to be against your original intent. Anastacio (talk) 15:34, 22 November 2021 (MST)

Perhaps so, the issue at this point is attempting to encapsulate the idea that a Fencer is skilled with their weapon(s) and that their best defense is a good offense. To that end, I think it's best to let go of the "ultra simple" constraint that originally existed and for that, I will make a pass over all of the class's mechanics to bring it into a semblance present intent and balance. And we'll go from there (probably by replacing any remaining redundancy with noncombat features.

Nosedrool (talk) 18:22, 22 November 2021 (MST)

The Maneuver Rework

I just made what I will call a "rule of cool pass" to modify the class and implement maneuvers as a short(er) hand for what the class does and a general rework. The pass being called such as it is pending balance pass(es). The changes are as follows:

• Added Fencing Superiority to implement maneuvers.
• Reworded Attrition to function as a stacking damage buff, attack to attack rather than turn to turn.
• Weapon Expertise gained a clause to increase the size of superiority dice at later levels.
• Replaced Lunging Strikes with Blinding Ripostes.
• Added Nimble Action to 9th level, which is Cunning Action but with Help instead of Hide.
• Moved Mortal Strikes to 15th level.
• Moved Extra Attack (4) to 18th level to add a more flavored capstone.
• Added Maneuver Master as a capstone.
• Removed mentions of Attrition(2), (3), and (4) from the class table as these didn't correspond to the current function of Attrition. This revealed that 15 and 18 didn't have any features or upgrades hence some of the additions and moves

Nosedrool (talk) 19:34, 22 November 2021 (MST)