Talk:Farmer (5e Class)

Love the class. Have a question about the pitchforks; is the pitchfork a Strength or Dexterity weapon?

What's the range for beast foe

Should there be a limit to the amount of hp regained by eating rations

Can you use multiple endurance dice at once to stack the temp hp

The heart carver should be per rest not per combat

This class is awesome

Reaper major issues.

As it is, the "Reaper" subclass is entirely broken due to the change from d6 to level based damage in the bleed ability. So would it max stack to 5x(level/2)? Or would it have a different progression? Also is there should PROBABLY be a limit on how much food one can eat. Con mod per long rest? Maybe even once per long rest which increases slightly in use as per Fighter's Second Wind ability.

There are a few errors.

First of, there is a small typo in heart carver.

Secondly, what is the die used for long range reaping?

And thirdly, whose turns are used for duration of the crows? your own 3 or the general 3?

Some stuff

I just noticed that Get ‘Em By the Roots is pointless, this is because it takes an action when you can take the attack action and use one of your attacks to shove, to do almost the same effect which anyone with extra attack can do, so I'm changing it so that it is an effect you can add to an attack

I've also made a whole lot of edits to other features, what do you think of them.

Babosa (talk) 20:20, 30 September 2018 (MDT)

Problems

DC's are almost always 8 + ability modifier + proficiency bonus not 10 + ...

Durations are almost always a clean number like 1 round, 1 minute, 10 minutes, 1 hour or 24 hours. And the endurance die temp HP would suit having an encounter duration which is 10 minutes not 4 hours.

Making endurance die 2d12 even at level 20 is overpowered. looking at the numbers, 2d12 averages 13, assuming 20 con you have 11 dice so the average amount is 198 which is almost equal to their HP of about 240 also compare it to level 19 where you get 126 and how every other increase is just one step but that one doubles it. a more appropriate dice would be 3d4 as it's average is 1 more than 1d12.

4x extra attack is fighters big thing, their whole focus is getting those extra attacks and farmer already has huge toughness, reap what you sow and the various strikes so having 4x or even 3x extra attack is inappropriate and overpowered.

Long Range Reaping range should be 30ft as that allows you to attack a normal creature that has run away without having to move, 60ft is excessive.

Babosa (talk) 16:20, 11 November 2018 (MST)

Personal Issues

Was shown this page by a friend of mine who was interested in at least the flavor the class brings. Unfortunately I can't see why any DM would justify its inclusion when it does way too much compared to any other class in the game.

1) The flavor is completely at odds with the mechanics. The Farmer is presented as the background character, normally the kind that gets passed over in lieu of the bands of adventurers in any typical setting, and yet even they can have hidden potential in making a difference. However, the mechanics turn them into the equivalent of supersoldiers, with multiple attacks beyond most other combat classes, extreme health values and ease of applying temp hitpoints, and other issues besides, while abandoning almost any potential utilitarian benefit they can bring to a team by merit of having been a farmer before they became an adventurer; in fact, the flavor kind of tramples all over the Nature Domain Cleric, which would be extremely suitable for a "farmer" type of character. As a result, it's not a hidden heroic soul - it's a slab of raw power on par with or exceeding the capabilities of a Barbarian or Fighter. Which brings it to the next issue:

2) This could easily be a Fighter or even a Barbarian subclass. One of the reasons why the game has stuck with 12 classes (kind of 13, and soon 13 or 14, depending on your views of the Blood Hunter) is that they all are wide-mouth baskets that many archetypes can fit into easily. Fighter alone has a large variety of archetypes that fit various niches: the Samurai, the Arcane Archer, the Brute, the Champion, the Cavalier, the Eldritch Knight, etc., all are completely different in how they present their flavor, but all fit snugly under the same chassis. There is nothing here in the Farmer that makes it stand out to where it requires an entirely new class to function; you could easily give the Fighter features that increase their effectiveness with sickles and tridents, give them proficiency/expertise in certain skills, maybe access to certain ranger and druid spells, and pull the enduring worker flavor without also jamming in stereotypical homebrew ideas like bleed damage. But really, overall:

3) It simply does too much.

• d12 hit dice, which is the best in the game, tied with the Barbarian, and has a similar propensity for Constitution.
• The potential for quadruple attacks, on par with the Fighter, with no penalty, along with the extra ASI at 6th and 14th that they have (again, why is this not just a Fighter subclass?)
• A subclass that, at 3rd level, gives permanent resistance to nonmagical weapon damage, which is extraordinary; Barbarians can gain resistance to magical weapon damage as well, and as a Totem Barbarian resistance to everything but psychic, but they need to be raging to do so, which at 3rd they can only do 3 times per day, and only if they continue to satisfy certain conditions.
• A "bleed" condition that slows down combat for, at least at low levels, pitiful and almost certainly inconsequential amounts of damage that nevertheless your DM will need to continuously roll checks for... until 18th level, when suddenly you're doing 36 extra damage every round if you can proc a failed save off of one of your three (later four) attacks.
• Bonuses to attack and damage against a very common type of enemy, just because... animals, I guess?
• Expertise in Survival or Nature, and Perception, along with cancelling surprise.
• Advantage on initiative, plus blindsense(??) for taking a feat?
• Multiple augments on attacks (and again, you have up to four of them for some reason), which only use your bonus action, and their balance is completely slipshod - halving their speed has limited uses, but quadrupling the damage and requiring two saves to end the bleed damage is infinite? Also, why is a Farmer getting maneuvers on weapon attacks?
• Probably the most egregious: the temp HP feature is ridiculous. Assuming a starting Constitution of 16, that's 4 Endurance dice at level 1, which, if spent all at once (as a bonus action, no less), gives you 4d6+12 (avg 26) temporary hitpoints to play with. An effective HP pool of 41 at first level is utterly absurd, and once you cross into 3rd level and take Fieldhand for your subclass (because no feature of the Reaper's is going to outpace permanent resistance), you become practically immortal, bar DM intervention to specifically counter you, which oftentimes will cripple your other party members due to the necessary added difficulty.

The rest of the subclasses have their own issues, but the Farmer chassis itself is pretty much insane on its own merits.

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I Feel like it should not have extra attack you are basically making a better fighter while the flavor text itself says that they aren't supposed to do much damage. I say leave it without the extra atttack because that makes it not as the description describes it. I myself removed the Extra attack to make this class fairer.

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8/25/2019 TheFirstFoxx

Lots of Reworking

Hello, I appreciate your effort in creating a homebrew class for D&D 5e. I have some feedback and suggestions on how to improve your farmer class. I hope you find them helpful and respectful.

Logistical Issues

The name of the class, farmer, does not seem to fit well with the concept of an adventurer. A farmer is usually a profession or a background, not a class. A class defines what and how a character does in the present, not what they did in the past. Maybe you could rename the class to something like Fieldhand, or Agrarian. Or better yet, something like Cow Whisperer, Crop Master, or Manure Appreciator!

The class also seems to have a contradiction between its description and its features. The description says that the class is good at lasting a long time in combat, but not very good at dealing damage. However, the features suggest otherwise. The class has a lot of features that deal extra damage, such as Bleed, Beast Foe, and Long-Range Reaping. The class also has a d12 hit die, which is the highest among all classes and usually reserved for barbarians who are very good at dealing damage.

Originality Issues

The class does not seem to have many features that are unique or thematic to the idea of a farmer. Many of the features are borrowed or modified from existing martial classes, such as Fighting Style, Cunning Action, Extra Attack, and Indomitable.

The class also does not have any subclasses or archetypes that could differentiate different types of farmers or provide more customization options. Subclasses are a common and important feature of most classes in D&D 5e, as they allow for more variety and flavor.

The subclasses that you have added are too far detached from the main class and each one makes the class something completely different while still being an amalgamation of existing classes. These subclasses do not fit well with the theme or the mechanics of the farmer class and they seem to copy or overlap with other classes too much.

Balance Issues

The class seems to be very overpowered compared to other classes in D&D 5e. The class has too many features that have no limits or costs, such as Bleed, Long-Range Reaping, and Dash. These features allow the class to deal a lot of damage, avoid damage, and move around the battlefield with ease.

The class also does not have any drawbacks or trade-offs that could balance out its strengths. Most classes in D&D 5e have some limitations or weaknesses that prevent them from being too powerful or versatile, such as resource management, concentration checks, action economy, or situational abilities.

The class also does not seem to follow the standard progression or design of other classes in D&D 5e. The class has too many features at low levels and super powerful ones at high levels. The class also has some features that are out of place or inconsistent with the rules of D&D 5e, such as stacking temporary hit points from different sources or having two saving throws that are based on the same ability score.

Party Issues

Playing this class could also create some problems for your party and your game fun. This class could invalidate the use of multiple classes by being too good at everything they do. For example, this class could outdamage a barbarian, outrun a rogue, outlast a fighter, and outsmart a ranger. This could make your fellow party members feel less useful or left out. Worse yet, they could resent you for making the game less fun.

Suggestions

Here are some possible ways to improve your farmer class:

• Rename the class to something more fitting and thematic for an adventurer.
• Rewrite the description of the class to match its features and playstyle.
• Remove or replace some of the features that are borrowed or modified from other classes with more original and thematic ones.
• Add subclasses or archetypes that could provide more variety and flavor for different types of farmers.
• Add limits or costs to some of the features that are too powerful or unlimited, such as Endurance Dice, Temporary Hit Points, Bleed, Long-Range Reaping, and Dash.
• Add drawbacks or trade-offs to some of the features that are too strong or versatile, such as resource management, concentration checks, action economy, or situational abilities.
• Follow the standard progression or design of other classes in D&D 5e. Balance the number and power of features at each level. Follow the rules of D&D 5e for things like temporary hit points or saving throws.
• Consider how playing this class could affect your party and your game fun. Try to avoid stepping on other classes’ roles or making them feel irrelevant.
• Find a playstyle niche that the class could fill that has not been fully explored by other classes. For example, you could make the class more focused on being a full-on meatshield with minor elements of team support out of combat. You could give them features that allow them to take hits for their allies, heal their wounds with natural remedies, or boost their morale with inspiring words.

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I ended up making a ton of changes and reordered the class features the page. I hope you understand why I made these changes and that I did not mean to offend you or disrespect your work. I think your farmer class has a lot of potential and I would love to see it grow and improve. I have contributed to the class wiki page to implement some changes that would make it acceptably playable at some lower levels, but it still needs a lot of balancing and playtesting. I did not like changing this since it felt like I was overriding someone else’s vision, but I also thought it was an interesting class to play if done correctly. Thank you for your time and attention if you read this.

--Snowlocko (talk) 12:46, 12 May 2023 (MDT)

Good job so far! I have had farmer on my watchlist for a while and couldn't help but noticed all the work you've put into trying to fix it. Funnily enough, farmer has become a meme in my D&D as one of the few pieces of homebrew that is forever permabanned from our games. Because a few years ago, one player played it, and he could not be killed. Just absolutely swimming in temp hp and he took the subclass or feature that slowly gave him permanent resistance to each of the three physical damage types as he leveled. I'm very happy to see someone putting in work to fix it since then, even if I don't think it'll fully recover from its infamous reputation in my group. --ZarHakkar (talk) 14:47, 25 May 2023 (MDT)

I am a bit sad to see the Reaper and Fieldhand archetypes go though. Because they were commented out I'd assumed you'd attempt to fix them up too. --ZarHakkar (talk) 12:03, 28 May 2023 (MDT)

Rework Analysis

Here goes my analysis of the current state of the class, as requested by Snowlocko in the Discord server.

Things to keep in mind:

• Saving throw proficiencies: Cons and Wis are two of the most common, so giving both is not advised. You'd generally give the class one among Dex, Cons and Wis and one of the other three
• Level 1 gives you no actual features: "Blessed Soil" is not a thing with mechanical effects, and there are no stats for the plants.

Harvest could be interesting but needs some work.

You really need to specify mechanical effects for the plants.

Imho Bless Soil would work better as a spell

• Endurance points: The endurance point pool scales rather poorly. 1+Cons at 2nd level is decent but getting only 6 extra points through your whole career sounds kinda meh to me (especially considering they are recharged after a long rest). Appart from that, enduring spirit looks promising
• Strawman is good
• The last part of Field Strider needs clarification. In particular, you need to specify if you can dodge someone's attack action with it.
• I'd change the 20th level feature to recover endurance points when rolling initiative, but this version is fine too
• Stablemate is kinda cruel. The most effective way the CR 1/4 beast has to impact a combat encounter for level 10+ PCs is dying

Final thoughts:

First of all, from what I've seen, you are doing a pretty good work. The class is still unfinished but I like the ideas being introduced into it.

Now, some criticism:

The newer subclasses are unfinished (I like the ideas though), with some features (in rancher and nomad) being unreadably long

Level 1 really needs some help

The fluff and some features seem to point to a spellcasting class, which is kind of weird. As a personal opinion (I.e. you can ignore this part completely), this could work better as a half caster with mainly utility and CC spells. This would also allow you to transform some of the lengthier features into spells.

The formatting is kinda weird and you'll eventually need to rewrite some features to adhere to actual 5e wording, but that's something that can be left for the end

I'll say though, I've read some of the comments on the discussion section and most of the issues seem to have been solved already, so that's something you can be proud of.

Draelm (talk) 18:40, 14 August 2023 (MDT)