Talk:Epic Magic (10th+ Level Magic) (5e Variant Rule)

On Undone Edit

Howdy, Gaga. The edits done to this page did a handful of things, none of which I can understand why you seem to have a problem with.

1. Fixing spelling and wording: the original (and current) revision has so many typos and casual wording that I had two options, fix it myself or add a stub. I and the rest of the wiki would really appreciate if you used some sort of spell check.

2. Making pages easier to make and find: by removing the input box, there is no longer any way to view the 10th+ Preload without knowing exactly where it is, which is a problem you should be familiar with, so making spells becomes twice as hard. The other boxes automatically display created spells, reducing the number of edits necessary to make them show up somewhere on the wiki.

If you have a counterpoint, my ears are open, by I've got the undo button at the ready.--Ref3rence (talk) 11:37, 31 March 2021 (MDT)
Thanks for helping with the page. There are just one little problem. There are nowhere where you can write the Casters: in your preload. If you could fix that then it would be perfect. .:)(Gaga (talk) 01:37, 1 April 2021 (MDT))

Should be working now.--Ref3rence (talk) 08:34, 1 April 2021 (MDT)

Perfect (Gaga (talk) 09:49, 1 April 2021 (MDT))
I just found a few problems with your preload (e.g. artificers cant cast 10th level spells so why include them) and corrected them (Gaga (talk) 08:11, 2 April 2021 (MDT))

I am doing something totally different

I am currently writing a campaign for parties where characters are level 18-20 or so, at the start. I anticipate supporting level advancement to level 50, but nothing really happens above level 40 other than the occasional new ability opening up (e.g. enchanting magic weapons, creating epic magic items, creating artifacts, inventing new spells of their own, sing, dance, tell jokes, start poaching spells from clerics/druids/paladins, etc.) I figure by level 50 (certainly not 20) the characters will be known to the gods, and probably have the ear of one or two. Not quite god-like, even at 50, but able to stop by the occasional gods house and shoot hoops with them.

There are a few new spells (I like [[1]]) and some familiar (meteor swarm). What I did is redo most of the 1-9 spells into an "epic version". Some they will get on their own ("After casting Magic Missile so many times Bob the Magician has an 'aha' moment and realizes with the slight change of the motions when casting their magic misses now do 1d8+1 damage each."), the concentration for all 8th level and lower spells is dropped at level 20, 9th level at level 30. The other thing is that they continue to get new spell slots until they have max for each level.

Epic Version of Spells

In general, the epic spells:

• Don't require concentration
• You might be dropping a lot of coin when you go visit Ye Olde Scroll and Spellbook Shoppe to acquire some of these. There is also a mage college which could be helpful, but not without some consideration. Sort of "we give you this you go get us that then we give you those" kinda thing.
• Shorter casting time
  • In some cases are reduced to only a single verbal or somatic component, so like 'poof' and your Magic Missile is off and running
• Spell effects level with caster level, as well as using a higher level slot.
  • Penalty to saves by the target at level 25 (-1), 30 (-2), 35 (-3), 40 (-5)
  • Larger area of effect, longer duration of action, more targets affected
  • Magic Missiles cap out with d20+1 damage at 40th level
  • Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting gets an addditional d8 of damage for every other level past 20 (yes, 20d8 at 40th, this was probably my second cast spell in ToB, right after stoneskin. In part, I think it was the graphic animation they did for it was cool. If you have not played BG, BG2, etc. do it on an iPad. Not as flexible as PC version (no mods/cheats) but esp. w/ a Pencil works wellk, and I am no shill for Apple--Linux on self-built PC kinda guy)
• In some cases where you had a choice of type of elemental damage, can pick 2 at 20, 3 at 30, and 4 at 40, etc.
• Switch to using the metric system. It has been around a few hundred years in my campaign, and the island switched to it from the one the empire forced them to use because it is so much easier than having to remember that the emperor's foot was 12 inches long, and that he needed a third foot to stand in his yard, etc. Now that the empire has crumbled (replaced by an arch-duke--that is the follow-on campaign in yet another totally new area, located in the middle of the trackless sea), even the former empire uses the metric system. Only the orc kingdom still uses inches, feet, ounces, etc. etc.
• I add in some of my favority BG2:ToB spells as well.
• Much longer duration of effect. Spells that last a minute last twice as long at 20, 10 minutes at 30 and up to an hour at 40. Some become permanant (no, not stoneskin, but shield is really nice to not have to remember every time you step out the door.
• Artificers, well at least Battle Smiths and Forge Adepts, have some great opportunities to make kick-ass weapons, once they find the right book.

Finding the book is pretty easy (actually, it is in a book store for a few hundred GP), to work with one of the metalurgists on the island (that might take some asking around), possibly with a wizard or bard helping (party member willing to give up a few days of adventuring, or you can always hire them, once you find the right one).

There is a recipe for an alloy for adamantine and a mysterious metal refered to only as 'W' that makes super hard, super resistant, and super heavy axe blades/hammers/daggers (swords would be too heavy and unballanced for anyone w/ STR≤20, ditto for pole arms). Maybe a spear would be OK. A great feature is that it is really easy to infuse with a couple of different types of elemental damage (just cast a spell that does that sort of damage at/on it while it gets smelted in a very specially made forge (it is a custom job, and guess who is going to pay for it). With the book, once you find the missing appendix (one of the smiths on the other side of the island can direct you to the library it is in) you can make a +1 or greater weapon (depends on your level (+1@20, +2@25, +3@30, +4at35, and +5@40, maybe +6 at level 50, but that would cost close to a million GP) and the price of other materials--makinig epic weapons is fun, but expensive, but, like in Skyrim, you get what you really want). You can also add a liter of blood of some creature and it will do double damage to the type. If you add more than one creatures blood it would do damage to both types, put any types they had in common (e.g. gold dragon blood and doppelganger blood would also do double damage to any creature capable of shape shifting, which would include druids, spellcasters who can cast spells that change their shape, etc.). I know a liter is a lot, but I don't want someone squeezing the life out of a pixie just to get the bonus vs. all fey. It will take a lot of pixies, plus a lot of sprites to get a liter of blood out of each, so I think I saved the pixie and sprite population from immediate onslaught. Now, if I can just get them to stop hanging out with the damn green dragon--he is a seriously bad influence on them.

You can also can infuse it with certain spell effects cast at the time of forging (e.g. a different type of elemental damage than it already does so it hits with two types, or makes the weilder immune to normal weapons or lit up outlined in glowing purple light, whatever). I also think that a magical axe of this metal and craftmanship should split non--magical shields w/ a single blow (first miss) and any hit would rip apart armor (-1 to AC w/ each successful hit would be a cool effect). I wonder what you would need to make a vorpal axe. So, if you are 40th level you can make a +5 sword that does 2d6 elemental damage plus traps the soul of whoever it hit (or mazes them, or feebs them). Maybe I should cap the spells you can use lower than 8th, and maybe allow a cleric or druid to help so to get those effects in an axe. Even 6th level spells would let you disintigrate or petrify them. That is a rather dangerous artifact you are swinging there! Fifth level spells are pretty lame, but fourth has banishment (makes for a nice paladin axe) and confusion (I suppose getting smacked on the head with a tripple heavy hammer might do that without any magic).

Suggestions??? Hammer that has knock? The alloy already does double damage vs. structures.

There is also an alloy of mithral and platinum that is perfect to make elven chain w/ magical protections infused, as well as inherant resistance to fire and acid (and a version with gold that is immune to acid, and resistant to electrical, but you cannot put as high a level of +x on it). How about elven platemail? How about elven platemail +3 that has improved invisibility and mind blank. Yes, the members of the party are going to constantly smack into you, but, nobody can see you but a flicker when you smash them with that bloody great axe of yours, then you are gone. Immune to fear, chaos, mind reading, scrying, everything but a bloodhound. Going to have to cast a lot of spells and that metal is going to take a long time to make, a long time to cool and be really hard to pound into shape, but, just imagine how great it will look with the engraving and, oh, right, invisible. Don't ever take off and forget where you left it. Probably should leave it at home when you are goinog out drinking. Hard to make, but the book has some great tips on pulling it off Confusing? That is why there is a book on the subject!

Game Ballance at 30th level?!?

I didn't want to suddenly overpower the characters--even with a level 20 party a fight vs. an ancient red dragon, the dragon should still have a chance at a TPK. It is a dragon after all. I also gave dragons the option to pick up character classes. I figure they are smart (at least blue, red, metallic, etc.)and easily bored. So why not learn to play guitar, or, for those who can assume humanoid form, become a warrior skilled in armed and unarmed combat. The only classes I am really struggling with are cleric (dragons are notoriously not religious) and druid (I guess a gem dragon, but it really would fit the personality of a green or maybe silver dragon better). I loosened up the alignments (yup, a NG Githyanki, a CG green dragon) figuring that those who live a really long time should not all be cookie-cutter. Plus, gives a great deal of 'flavor' to the campaign which really emphasizes role-play, as you need to tease out of various NPCs the clues needed to solve a pile of puzzles in a very complex and interwoven plot, that works for evil, good, chaotic, neutral parties. If you want to have a blackguard, an evil cleric, some mean monks, a brute of a fighter, and an assassin you still can jump in the plot, you just end up in a different faction fighting for power.

It all takes place on an island, a deep underwater trench offshore, and its respective underdark.

Progress and where I could use community input

I have the major plot lines mostly figured out (the hardest part), and am about 1/2 of the way through the maps (the most time-consuming part--there are a few good size (>100 buildings) towns, and about 20 villages, many outdoor areas, since who wants to go traipsing through cold damp dungeons and tunnels when you are on a tropical paradise with bananas, coconuts, and mangos growing wild everywhere.) I have picked out the creatures and I am working on the various NPCs, as well as some of the various other creatures. E.g. dragons take quite a bit of time when you consider the smart ones set up pretty extensive networks to spy for them, run criminal enterprises, or on the other side of the house, work with humanoid leaders to foster good government, unified fight vs. evil, etc. etc.

There are a lot of dragons on this island, it turns out. Four live in or near the capital city of one of the three colonies (one is my favorite, as she is a very rambunctious troublemaker, prone to paining owlbears to look like zebra and leaving them in the office of a corrupt and mean deputy governor and passing out pails of zebra colored paint to kids telling them to write bad things about the deputy governor on walls, streets, city guard, etc. and blackmailing a black dragon into leaving humanoid settlements alone, playing pranks on the green dragon, and running amok with two elves and their very own gnome), one in the capital of another (he is not very fun, very much into running his various trading companies, and is a major player in financing, owns a ton of plantation land, and does insurance for merchant vessels. You can get your treasure without burning down villages, it seems.) There are two "wild" chromatic dragons at the start (at least above ground, I think there are a half-dozen in the underdark, since the githyanki are riding some into battle vs. the mind flayers who keep stealing silver swords. Githyanki are another race prone to boredom and apt to try out new things. Great personality for a bard, an artificer, or mage who likes to create new spells. Also, should they actually get motivated and off their lazy asses, they can train up and become rather dangerous as a monk or fighter.

If the party steps on the wrong toes, they might discover a rather vicious gang of red dragons led by a greatwyrm! Good luck with that fight (greatwyrm, his handful of ancient red dragon lieutenants, and a bunch of others: they don't fight fair, so it might be an assassin's blade in the dark while they sleep, rather than an epic battle of flames and blood. Organized crime is a problem on the island, and not all of it has a nice, easy to find boss you can beat once you find out where their lair is. I bet even some red dragons would leave their horde to a party kicking their ass, run off, and drop down on the party as they struggled to carry all their loot back home. Swoop down, fry, fly out of range of arrows, swoop down, fry, ... repeat as needed and then pounce on any survivors and tear them a new one. Dragons are smart, and they know how to organize (at least red, blue, and maybe green). Black dragons are just too damn unpleasant to have a lot of followers*. They seem obsessed with death and destruction all the time, and don't choose lairs in the most hospitable locations. Even the smart ones are not much of a conversationalist, or a plotter of elaborate decades-long schemes to become the de facto land-owner for a region and collect rents year after year. At best, they would confront the village and demand payment every so often. The notion of building a mill so the wheat grown can be sold as more valuable flour would never cross their mean minds. White dragons are mere brutes without an original thought in their head)

I would love some feedback, suggestions, etc. If you have a concept for a plot line, a great NPC, names of ships, cities, and esp. rivers (there are a lot--tropical island/rain forest/mountains = a lot of waterfalls and a lot of rivers) I am not above poaching. While I did have quite a few of the same already, Michael Winegar's [Character Focused Random Events for the City] is great.

Gaming as social commentary.

I also give the DM a bit of lee way depending on player maturity regarding sex and some of the darker violence. Demonic cults are really grim and the really attractie and well built bisexual song dragon 18th level bard w/ a Charisma of 20 can probably get even the stoutest paladin out of their platemail. I tried as best I could to even up gender roles in classed NPCs and yes, not all are straight (e.g. Regi, the tinkering male gnome illusionist/alchemist, buddy of Kristi the female copper dragon and the two elves is gay. I don't think I mention it, but that is who he is in my head. AFAIK he doesn't get involved with anyone in the campaign, but if some cute halfling or gnome arrive in port, who knows.). Its just how things work. If the DM wants to go NC-17 or XXX its on them. I just open the door. It works just as well as PG. If I decide to try and sell it to a publisher, that might be an interesting discussion.

I also try and make the nefarious roll of racism (they really don't like dwarves, esp. since they started showing up and taking good paying mining jobs, plus the elves which hang with Kristi love to prank drunk dwarves, esp. the one who is a really high level thief can pickpocket everything short of their Fruit-of-the-Looms, which the other dwarves find hysterically funny and the one who sobers up to find all his clothing missing (in reality they were sent out to get laundered and are waiting at the front desk smelling of rosewater soap), and sterotypes (the bugbears and hobgoblins in this adventure work for the genius goblin general and his progressive and inspiring king who have a long stream of campaigns behind them as a mercenary army as well as a really fun book club. They are great. Just crushed a dwarven kingdom two years ago--its members fleeing everywhere as refuges. Good thing they are great at mining, or they would starve, which, um, might be a bit of a scuffle if those two groups bumped into eachother again, eh? Not only great fighters, the leadership in the goblins is also smart, solid small and large unit tactics spelled out, and they drill under the perfectionist eyes of sargents who know there ass is on the line if one of their goblins screws something up.

I do need to figure out how to do the combat.

"84 crossbows fire at you in unison, oh crap, where is that bucket of 20 sided dice...ah ah, well in the time it took for me to find the pile of dice, they got a second shot off and the first and second platoon of Bare Tooth Company attack your flanks, lets see that's three squads of 10 goblins plus a sargent each for each platoon...oh, and 10 balistae let loose another round, and 8 of the goblin special forces "Bone Marrow Eaters" has come out of hiding to backstab your asses...now where is that group of ogres and their hobgoblin handlers at, yeah, they are in range, thats 3 hobgoblins per ogre and 4 orges..."). Yup. 20th level+ TPK by goblins. Could happen. There is a reason they are a super successful mercenary army. I didn't even mention the spell casters (at platoon, company, batallion level, plus the king controls his own group, and each balista has a socerer, a shamen/cleric-druid sort of, and a warlock co-located. So, without some software (I can do it in BASH or Python, maybe as a macro in LibreOffice Calc or Base), might be a lot of wear and tear on your d20s.

Dragons and mental health

* I suspect that there may be a good deal of self-esteem issues and underlying mood disorders in black dragons.  Mine is pretty depressed and her mood shows it.  Short, irritable, brooding, keeps going over every of her faults and failings, ever new prank by Kristi (Cu dragon) and her crew just makes it worse, probably some PTSD issues.  

I wonder if any of the kobolds which are supposed to be her living alarm system and who worship her as a god appreciate how betrayed she feels.

Seriously, how is it that three or four people--she doesn't know Kristi is a dragon, in fact, she just knows some rumors about her and her crew, and isn't even sure it is them--can walk right through an entire clan (maybe 100?) of kobolds and the dozens of serious traps they recently hired some gnome trap genius (It was Regi, who doesn't let on that he is also a high level theif, who did a very good job, but he knows his own work. He installed the more difficult traps after all. Kristi was of justifiably furious at first, since they are both really dangerous but also very hard to spot/disarm--Regi having a reputation to maintain, not just of himself, but of gnome craftsmen worldwide.) to put it at great expense of her treasure.

Oh her treasure. Her beutiful treasure. Her beutiful, but shrinking treasure. You have to play the game to find out the rest of the story, e.g. how Kristi can blackmail a black dragon into leaving humanoids alone (except gnolls, those she said were 'fair game'), why this small group spends all its time prankiing and harassing two dragons and has never taken a single CP from them or done a HP of damage to them, how the red dragons get involved, who the black dragon turns to when she starts having uncontrollable sobbing/crying jags, how the good Githyanki escapes his unit and how he defects (and to whom, the answer will surprise you), why the black dragon's prior attempt to just fly away and start over on the Sword Coast was such a failure, etc. etc. Think about it--a githyanki actually walking away from their stronghold or an organized patrol, on their own. Who would they run into, on their own, in the underdark? Just how would that conversation go? "Ah, excuse me madam drow, do you happen to know any good guys I could talk to--I mean ones who wouldn't just kill me on sight?" Not a trivial problem, and takes a lot of conviction and means giving up everything to turn traitor to their people.

I would love some feed back, and names, names, names

• That does remind me: I need a dozen good names for red dragons in addition to towns, rivers, more rivers, oh dear lord why did I put so many rivers on the map, mountains (I think I have two left, not very big--they are about 1km wide and weird curved things that look like the letter 'C' (or 'U') a lot of the time, maybe 400-500m tall, but only a few km from the coast, so they really jump up--big walls covered in orchids, waterfalls, fairie dragons, and the like. Kind of like Hawai'i, but less touristy, more south-of-England in 16th century like, lots of shipping, merchants, lot and lots of produce (but it is a good tenday to Faerûn, maybe five to the much larger island where the three colonies on the island are from) and fish. You can never have enough salt cod, now can you? I know a steel dragon who got his start buying and selling the odiferous staple of army camps, sailing ships, kidens, and way too many iron rations.

Yum.

Looks Good

This reminds me of a 5e supplement book I read that speaks about magic users getting together to create epic magical effects throughout a ritual process. Such as like a no magic barrier spell being done by enough high level casters they can blanket a city with a permanent dispel magic aura. This page helps put crunch on this fantasy and I hope to use it in some way. Kudos! Red Leg Leo (talk) 09:04, 19 April 2021 (MDT)