Talk:Eevlet (5e Race)

eevlet

So, this is more for DnD, and not the pokemon DnD, and their is no subraces, their the adult forms, so they can have a purpose, and the transformation is permanent. I will give you they might be incorrect spelling, but the racial traits are limited, and only applies to that "eevaform", and the use of this race can change, if they played a bubbleon, and the next campaign the can choose to a darkeon. in my eyes, their quite balanced, and can be a great story builder.--Frostboi27 (talk) 09:03, 17 January 2024 (MST)

But it is inspired by Pokemon. Credit should be given where it is due. Also, you're not making much sense, I'm afraid. Adult forms don't exist in 5e races. And the mechanic for aging into one of the forms is not detailed in the article. As for the traits of each of the -eons, I think your sense of balance is very skewed. A subrace that has immunity to one damage type AND resistance to another is already quite a chunk of a race budget. You also have unlimited attacks like a lightning shot you can spam, and it does more damage than any weapons of starting level. Min-maxing and saying vulnerability cancels out a strong trait is false balancing and forces players into a certain playstyle, as seen in 3.Xe. There are so many traits in each one of the -eons that are powerful in and of themselves, unless I am misunderstanding how this is structured.--Yanied (talk) 19:05, 23 January 2024 (MST)

So, if you gave me a list of the traits that are overpowered in your opinion so I can explain them more clearly for you. and how else would I word how their forms change when they reach a certain age? And what I mean is is this race is for the standard DnD game. There's a pokemon version of the game, so thats why theyre called a "eevlet", and not Eevee.--Frostboi27 (talk) 07:39, 24 January 2024 (MST)

So it is pokemon. Anyway, the disclaimer is up, so that's fine. As for the traits...

• Adult forms do not exist in 5e as 5e doesn't have the age descriptors of something like 3.Xe, which does account for this. So, this is a mechanic that should not exist without HEAVY work. Because if your player starts out as a baby, how many sessions will they have to be babies before they become adults? As it stands, the passage of time is heavily DM-oriented, and so it would leave a player entirely stranded. On the other spectrum, the adult forms are crazy imbalanced for even 1st level play.
• Eevelet legs doesn't really state a disadvantage to being on all fours all the time to always have 30 ft moving speed. If it does, they probably can't use their hands, which needs to be stated. Their swim speed is also strange. Why do they have that? Not even a wolf has that.
• Several of the "adult forms" have immunity, resistance, and a vulnerability. Immunity alone is already a lot, but you add on a resistance and then throw in a vulnerability to try and balance that out, but that's false balance in that case. See how official races handle resistance and how only ONE race ever had immunity (yuan-ti) and this was removed in a later publication :P And Oh look, Psyceon has THREE resistances.
• Language like "water-based spell that includes bludgeoning" is not well defined and therefore too vague to actual use. Also, healing from damage like that is broken. Unlimited healing if you have a friend with that spell! this applies to all the traits involved with type-damage healing in the page
• 50 feet movement speed, unhampered, no limit, plus your idea of four legged running means 60 feet movement speed. That's double that of a normal creature race.
• thunderbolt deals more damage than a lot of cantrips. And it spams! :D
• Straight up unlimited force paralysis save spam (thunderwave, psyschock), unlimited ignite (willowisp)
• Fire fluff will literally allow you to deal 1st level spell level damage to anyone as a reaction that hits you in melee, which is a lot of enemies.
• Spell DCs are all wrong for Psyceon, They have their own. That's why you givve a spellcasting ability.
• Just have a friend hit you with some necrotic cantrip like chill touch and you can spam stun saves! (pitch black)
• Fakeout gives you surprised turn which isn't sensical since surprise is BEFORE actual combat. I'm not actually even sure what it means...
• So many of the DC calculations are all wrong. See how dragonborn breath weapon does it.
• Assurance and that 3d6 wow. Leaf blade, 2d8, ice beam, strangle...

This is a VERY BRIEF rundown of the trait list, and I am absolutely sure I missed some glaring issues. The balance problem is compounded by the poor wording. This isn't well thought out if you wanted progression. 5e measures in levels, not age.--Yanied (talk) 21:45, 30 January 2024 (MST)

Ok, I'm going to run down what you told me:

• before the campaign even starts, you choose one eevaform to be. (why would you play a nine year old?)
• The swim speed was initially for surface swimming, and not underwater. only bubbleon has that under water swim. and why it's there is in the newest game "scarlet and violet"s DLC the indego disc, your eevee can swim. And I worded it wrong, it's unarmed, not unarmoured.
• the damage immunities, resistances, and vulnerabilities are because their elementals, and the element they represent make them immune to the damage they represent. Als, the vulnerability also is in that case, cause take frosteon for example, immunity to cold because the ice elemental, but fire vulnerability would melt ice.
• for all of your concerns for the absorbing damage, I can list it only works if it's from an enemy's attack, not alie.
• the attacks you listed I can put a recharge system to it, and the damage can increase each level so it's somewhat O.K.
• Most of racial traits are based of of the creatures on this wiki, or things like fake out or psyshock are made like nintendos.

I think I covered most of what your saying--Frostboi27 (talk) 08:47, 31 January 2024 (MST)

So, in other words, the eevaforms ARE SUBRACES :P

Players being pure elementals does not mean they should get all the bells and whistles elementals do. You are forgetting that, unlike something like 3.Xe, Creatures and players are EXTREMELY different in balancing! It's why official content is careful not to give players super powerful things like a dragon breath despite being a dragonborn or total nonmagical resistance to certain damage types like a construct (warforges are living constructs also for this reason)!

Pokemon as a game balance is also an extremely bad comparison to DnDs if you even just look at the difference of how their power levels are extremely different. It doesn't translate well and it just makes everything here unplayable. It needs to be balanced equivalent to a base race compared to first-party content.--Yanied (talk) 09:10, 6 February 2024 (MST)

There's almost no common traits between the subraces. What we have here are 8 different races. I will have a go at rewriting this. Marasmusine (talk) 02:18, 7 February 2024 (MST)

Okay, eevlet's must be elementals only in a colloquial sense. In D&D elemetals come from the elemental planes, or are otherwise actually composed of elemental materials. Eevlet's might be _associated_ with an element, but are still flesh blood and fur, right? Marasmusine (talk) 02:40, 7 February 2024 (MST)

The problem with basing races on pokemon is that all their traits are going to be battle-focused. A good race might have a trait based on culture, such as a dwarf's "stonecunning" or a gnome's "speak with small beasts". Marasmusine (talk) 02:46, 7 February 2024 (MST)

yes they are flesh and blood. they get perks from elementals tho--Frostboi27 (talk) 08:11, 7 February 2024 (MST)

Okay cool. I am going to do my best with the subtypes to keep them balanced. If I remove a feature that you think is important, we can either make a racial class or (and I should have perhaps offered this with the Gandelren race) move the features to an optional feat. Marasmusine (talk) 10:55, 7 February 2024 (MST)

Oki doki, I've finished working on the subraces. Marasmusine (talk) 07:19, 8 February 2024 (MST)

So, I've read these, and i'm impressed. the only problem I have is darkeons resistance to psychic. I'm going to change it to necrotic, and get rid of the necrotic from Nympeons. The one thing I don't like is bolteon increases dexterity more than strength, and the special extra feet of walking is gone, And that one was important.(P.S. You added umbreon to the alignments description ;) I'll fix it.)--Frostboi27 (talk) 07:39, 8 February 2024 (MST)

Definitely more playable now, with the attacks being changed to cantrip levels and other Maras changes. Just the usual finishing touches of links and stuff and it should be good.--Yanied (talk) 07:47, 8 February 2024 (MST)

Personally it bugs me when people conflate "darkness" with "necrotic". Necrotic is to do with decay, the negative energy plane, sickness - perhaps radiation in a modern setting. I tried to unify the creatures by having a base +2 Dexterity so they have some commonality. If they are going to have different ability scores as well, you may as well make them separate races. The "special extra feet of walking" is still there, I called it "scamper". Oh, good spot with the umbreon :) Marasmusine (talk) 10:10, 8 February 2024 (MST)

no, I mean it makes more cents in my mind that darkeon has necrotic, and bolteon has at LEAST 5 extra ft of speed, and change it to dexterity instead.also, I would LOVE to have grasseon keep its "Leaf Blade" attack, cause then they get some offence attacks.--Frostboi27 (talk) 10:34, 8 February 2024 (MST)

Oh, I see, the bolteon. Ignoring difficult terrain is already a powerful mobility trait, it will be zipping through rocks, mud, undergrowth etc that slows down other creatures; and potentially already at 40 feet speed which in my opinion is the maximum for a 1st player character. There are other ways to make something faster though, for example improve its Dash action or give it a once-per-day speed boost. Marasmusine (talk) 00:54, 10 February 2024 (MST)

Just noticed the drawings, good job! Marasmusine (talk) 00:54, 10 February 2024 (MST)

Balance

The rating system I use for assessing a race's balance is of course my own Marasmusine Meter (5e Guideline).

Looking at the base traits:

• (0.5) Scamper either doesn't help you at all (armoured character) or helps almost all the time. When assessing, we assume a best-case-scenario. 40 feet movement is at the top-end.
• (0.5) Darkvision
• (0.25) Extra Language

Total 1.25.

Let's look at bolteon, see if we can squeeze in another speed trait.

• (0.5) Damage resistnance to an uncommon type
• (0.5) Ignoring difficult terrain (although just a subcategory of terrain in this case) is useful almost all the time
• (0.5) Thunderbolt is a cantrip equivalent

The total is 2.75, which is within the balance threshold of 2.5 to 3. This makes it difficult to add further traits.

Each subrace needs to be assessed for balance in this way, which might take a while, but that's what you get for a race with eight subraces :) Marasmusine (talk) 01:11, 10 February 2024 (MST)

so, it looks good, but I changed psyceons moonbeam to misty step, lights to minor illusion, and added aura of vitality. als, I would like to make grasseon have the leaf blade trait back, because it has no offensive manners to it. and I also became more specific to the ferie fire for darkeon to be only cast on themselves, and the color is yellow. --Frostboi27 (talk) 09:58, 12 February 2024 (MST)

Adding aura now imbalances the sub, so good work on that. Getting a 7th level boost is beyond that of first party races, who only get up to 5th level, with the exemption of damage dice increases. Not all races/subraces need an offensive quality. That's possibly attributing to the issue of imbalanced design in the first place. As for any nonmechanical, ribbon flavor, you can add that if you wish. It just matters to the player's taste.--Yanied (talk) 09:23, 3 April 2024 (MDT)

That must be the way I think. To me, all upper hand attacks give me a way to dominate the battlefield.And i Was thinking of Swapping "Leaf Guard" with "Leaf Blade", so Its more 'real'. The nympeons ribbons made no sense, for you can move something and spend a ribbon? So I made them Have a "Magical Charge", so It makes more sense, and have strangle and moving and object a natural thing. The important thing is this race will get some testing, along with the class Pop Star. I'm going to play test nympeon, so it can be decided if its good or not.--Frostboi27 (talk) 11:47, 4 April 2024 (MDT)

I just realized something, Im acting like this isn't mine, and kinda asking for your approval. I guess I'm weird in a sense.--Frostboi27 (talk) 11:49, 4 April 2024 (MDT)