Talk:Dragon Slayer (5e Class)

Would Like Help to complete page

I understand that I have not included all the class features, however, as I need to complete this on a deadline I have temporarily left some areas incomplete as they are not currently needed. If people with knowledge of the Fairy Tail series could finish off the Iron Dragon Slayer and Sky Dragon Slayer sections that would be greatly appreciated. As well as this if someone could put in place features to allow differentiating between different generations of Dragon Slayer that would be very handy. Thank you! Aye!

Note to Dev

Regarding the Dragon Slayer (Monk Variant), I made said class as a balanced version of this class for my player who wished to play it for our campaign. Thank you, and feel free to check it out to use to help balance your own version of Dragon Slayer (Fairy Tale Variant).

In the Table at level 4,7,10,13,17 and 19 it says Unarmed Strike Increase, but what increases? in the dragon martial arts section it's not mentioned what increases. If you could clear that up, it would be great! thx :)

Confusion

Thank you to whoever added the armor and changed up the stats but have you seen Fairy Tail? I don't remember seeing them using weapons before. Could you please justify your reasoning for this?

I think second wind (fighter ability) and eating the element should be some features, along with more elemental control spells. Alter the element for chained lightning and it could be good for this class

I can cur with your comment. The only dragon slayer in the series that I recall even owning a weapon was Rogue from the Sabertooth guild and I don't recall him using it. The Dragon slayer's were meant to be magical hand to hand fighters, so maybe changing it so they don't have proficiency with martial weapons at the very least.--Jacklinkz92 (talk) 20:58, 2 November 2017 (MDT)

Me again. Something else that I noticed in the Draconic Parentage section that later translates into the "Elemental Buffet" skill that I found a bit off and that a friend actually pointed out when I was showing them this page. Thunder damage in the PHB is defined as "a concussive burst of sound, such as the effect of the Thunderwave spell.". In a way, this could mean that the Dragonslayer with a dragon that grants that damage type could consume a loud sound to heal off damage which seems a little too absurd. Maybe remove that option?--Jacklinkz92 (talk) 16:15, 3 November 2017 (MDT)

Spells known (non secret arts)

How are the other learned spells devided on the table, or are they all lvl 1 unless a cantrip. Bloodreaper54 (talk) 12:07, 23 December 2016 (MST)

Hey, so I understand that it's pretty good as it is, but I've got one question- where are the spell slots? I mean, the class abilities are cool and all, but with the whole "Dragon Slayer Secret Arts" giving Sorcerer spells 6th level and up, why can't we get 5th level spells, too? Like a warlock, just with the Sorcerer spell list. I mean, the Secret Arts are basically the Mystic Arcanum.

--Jdantastic (talk) 15:39, 28 January 2017 (MST)Jdantastic

I'm trying to work out the spell slot thing as well. I'm confused on either how many you have or if you just cast lower level spells at higher levels later on.--104.192.105.153 18:56, 3 November 2017 (MDT)

Balance

This class already is very powerful, what half caster also deals a scaling melee that easily trumps that of the monk, equal defense and damage resistance of the barbarian, can crit like the fighter, and can regenerate health and spells by nullifying an enemies attack etc. These things individually are fine and good, but together this class is a head and shoulders better than most official classes. Having a 6th level spell at level 6 is out of line for all other spell casters, everyone else only has access to 4th level spells. Here is what I'd recommend

D8 for hit die (this is inline with both the monk and the warlock)

Iron fist follows the monk melee progression and becomes a D12 in Dragonforce.

Extra attack caps at 2 and add 1 in dragonforce

Brutal critical caps at 1 and +1 in dragonforce

Dragonforce should be treated like barb rage as it grants adv on strength checks and saves, resistance to (magical at upper level) bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing (you already have resistance to 2 elements), give temp hp equal to hit dice + level, can cast cantrips of chosen elements as bonus actions, under the effects of reckless assault (you have resistance to most forms of damage that you'll encounter, enemies having adv against you isn't as big of deal, also your AC will be pretty high). Dragonforce last a number of rounds equal to the Con mod (1 hour for those boosts is huge). keep the bonus to speed and immunity to fear

In my opinion, Dragonforce should just be a one step increase to everything but it needs drawbacks. Or a specific criteria to enter dragonforce (half health, downed teammates, or some other event that puts others in mortal danger) until he can learn to enter it willingly.

Dragon's might is flat better than what the barbarian gets, give it the same but break it up so at level 10 (or 12) and at 20 give a 2 point bonus to strength and constitution and give the feat Tough at the first boost. That is still better than the Barb's but not a native 6 point boost to str and a LARGE leap in health.

Without dragonforce, this class is still good because it takes many of the better features of other classes and puts them all together. With dragonforce, this class is beyond incredible. It has the full casting power of the warlock and is as good at dpr and tanking at the monk and barb. There NEEDS to be some drawback or balancing power otherwise this class and player will outshine any class that is balanced to the core classes.

Balance

This class already is very powerful, what half caster also deals a scaling melee that easily trumps that of the monk, equal defense and damage resistance of the barbarian, can crit like the fighter, and can regenerate health and spells by nullifying an enemies attack etc. These things individually are fine and good, but together this class is a head and shoulders better than most official classes. Having a 6th level spell at level 6 is out of line for all other spell casters, everyone else only has access to 4th level spells. Here is what I'd recommend

D8 for hit die (this is inline with both the monk and the warlock)

Iron fist follows the monk melee progression and becomes a D12 in Dragonforce.

Extra attack caps at 2 and add 1 in dragonforce

Brutal critical caps at 1 and +1 in dragonforce

Dragonforce should be treated like barb rage as it grants adv on strength checks and saves, resistance to (magical at upper level) bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing (you already have resistance to 2 elements), give temp hp equal to hit dice + level, can cast cantrips of chosen elements as bonus actions, under the effects of reckless assault (you have resistance to most forms of damage that you'll encounter, enemies having adv against you isn't as big of deal, also your AC will be pretty high). Dragonforce last a number of rounds equal to the Con mod (1 hour for those boosts is huge). keep the bonus to speed and immunity to fear

In my opinion, Dragonforce should just be a one step increase to everything but it needs drawbacks. Or a specific criteria to enter dragonforce (half health, downed teammates, or some other event that puts others in mortal danger) until he can learn to enter it willingly.

Dragon's might is flat better than what the barbarian gets, give it the same but break it up so at level 10 (or 12) and at 20 give a 2 point bonus to strength and constitution and give the feat Tough at the first boost. That is still better than the Barb's but not a native 6 point boost to str and a LARGE leap in health.

Without dragonforce, this class is still good because it takes many of the better features of other classes and puts them all together. With dragonforce, this class is beyond incredible. It has the full casting power of the warlock and is as good at dpr and tanking at the monk and barb. There NEEDS to be some drawback or balancing power otherwise this class and player will outshine any class that is balanced to the core classes.

Dragon’s Roar appears to be the most obvious issue, a once every 30 (or every other round at 16th) that's incredibly powerful ability to provide, and it scales in damage, and is AoE.

This ability is restored at the beginning of the 5th round after it is used. The time between each use decreases to 4 rounds at level 6, 3 rounds at level 11, and 2 rounds at level 16. Acid= 5 by 30ft line, Poison= 15ft cone, Cold= 15ft cone, Fire= 15ft cone, Lightning= 5 by 30ft line, Necrotic= 15ft cone, Radiant= 5 by 30ft line

Suggestion: Once per long rest; Save vs NO Damage; and/or potentially no scale in damage. (They already have cantrips and Iron Fist and spell progression

likewise Elemental Buffett effectively grants free healing. Another player with a cantrip can heal the Dragon Slayer for no spell lost, HECK, a putting their finger in a vial of acid, standing the campfire, or even just walking in the blizzard could be healing for them.

Suggestion: Drop the power or restrain it to only spell damage from 1st or higher spells that generate the damage type - and NOT 1/2 of the damage, that'll get abused - "I'll go tank, and when I'm about dead fireball/lighting bolt me and the mobs I've pulled, ok?" Reduce the healing potential or reduce its frequency - and maybe both.

Dragon Force

So, bump in AC, Damage, advantage on checks... for an HOUR, no concentration needed. That's a lot. (also you need to state the type of damage they take).

Suggestions: Drop the double long rest mechanic. Reduce the Number of effects the ability generates (perhaps let them choose one effect from bonus to check, or AC), definitely drop the extra damage on attack. Multi-classing makes having that ability completely unbalanced dps wise as opposed to the legitimate classes of same level and if it doesn't work as both stand alone AND multiclass - its not balanced well. & Reduce the time to 1 minute.

Most classes progress with 1 or 2 Class feature progressions with a level.

This class often has 3 such, and some of the features are (like above) a combination of effects which make it more like 3+ abilities.

In general you're adding too much damage, and often allowing it to happen for too long, too frequently.

Dragon Bolt

At 3rd level, you have learned to attack enemies from afar. You may spend one spell slot to extend your Dragon Slayer Roar by 15ft.

(that's really enough don't make it more complicated with : This also makes your Roar do an extra 1d10 damage. This rises to 20ft and 2d10 at 7th level, and 25ft and 3d10 at 14th level.) Extend range. Cool. perhaps just double the range and leave at that.

Dragon Wings

No restriction on frequency of use, or amount of time for their use.

With Dragon Roar as it stands if you do you your Dragon Force with your Dragon Bolt and Dragon Rage and Dragon Soul.... you are for 30 minutes dealing (56) 8d10+4d8 to all creatures in the AoE every other round, while gaining 2 to AC, advantage all checks with two attributes, resistance to a damage type, and healing as a reaction.

(and once during that time - you'd deal 16d10+8d8)

...while also having (64) 1d12+2d10+4d8 x2 on the "off rounds" Crit'ing on 19 or 20. (auto hit/double damage - ie 128 average.)

The Dragon Slayer

What exactly is the point of this class? They seem to be able to get some of the best features other classes have and adds another layer on top of that. Here are just a few of the plethora of problems this class has.

• This class is just strictly better than any 1st party class
• The class has far too many features and it should not gain features when it should largely not gain a feature when it gain a spell slot level or an ability score increase.
• The class has a d10 hit die with the monk's unarmed strike scaling damage, half spellcasting with Constitution as your spellcasting ability, and you get an additional extra attack earlier than the fighter
• The class has Strength as its unarmored defense
• The class had round counting and your breath weapon is extremely overpowered
• Unconditional advantage on anything is overpowered, and the class has advantage on Dexterity saves, the main save that prevents you from taking damage from aoes
• The class has unclear features that are determined by the DM (Elemental Buffet)
• The class has static bonuses to checks that a variable amount of time

Finally, the class has numerous other problems that largely make the class unusable.--Blobby383b (talk) 14:15, 9 March 2018 (MST)

Input of a Dragon Slayer User

Look I like this class a lot, it is a great idea, and honestly it isn't that overpowered, people are just being paranoid and picky. You shouldn't complain about the class if you don't know the story about its inspiration. I love this class and I don't want it deleted. Please let the dragon slayers stay.

Current state of this class

This class has seen its maintenance templates repeatedly removed with no just cause or reason. This class still has a multitude of problems that seem to have been ignored.

• The class still does not have multiclassing.
• The class still does not abide by Help:When to Italicize and Capitalize(class names, damage types, ect), has the per long rest wording Class Do's and Don'ts (5e Guideline) among several other wording issues.
• The class still has a multitude of problems, the recent edits have fixed a few minor things then added a bunch of new problems(added a negative feature which should be avoided, changed spellcasting from spells to cantrips, added unclear Additional Attacks when the class already is powerful enough, got rid of the overpowered version of Dragon Slayer Secret Arts, but replaced it with to a bunch of spells that you can't use at the levels you gain them and/or that are redundant due to the spells the dragon slayer can already learn or spells that are entirely too powerful(Healing Ice, Acid Shield, ect.)
• The class also still gets 3 attacks faster than the figher, has a d10 hit die, half spellcasting with Constitution as its spellcasting, a free aoe that scales far too much, several instances of round counting, the Dragon Slayer Secret Arts feature as described above, Dragon Force which is absurdly powerful and temporarily changes your ability scores(which again should be avoided), a flying speed on a martial class, the Draconic Restoration(strong bonus action healing that can be done repeatedly, by itself is not a problem but in the context of the class it is), and the Dragon Spirit subclass is again extremely powerful. Many features are also unclear or use improper wording.

For future reference, if an delete or other improvement template is added, you should do your best to address the issues, removing templates without addressing these issues is not ok.

Also, the Fairy Tail Dragon Slayer (5e Class) that was created is a copy of this class, and it was created after the delete template was added to the this class, to presumably both circumvent the class having templates on it(as seen by the repeated removal of them from both classes) and to prevent the class from being deleted. If you do want to keep the class around, I would suggest removing the breadcrumbs/categories and moving the Fairy Tail Dragon Slayer (5e Class) to your namespace at User:Nemon0416/Fairy Tail Dragon Slayer, or to simply address the templates on this class and remove them when the issues have been addeqeutly addressed.--Blobby383b (talk) 00:40, 24 March 2018 (MDT)

I'll do my Best

Ok everyone, I've read all your comments and complaints, now I am going to do my best to fix some of the main problems with this class, my list of fixes are as seen bellow, as well as my comments on things that people suggested fixing.

I would put multiclassing if I knew how, if someone could tell me how, it'd be greatly appreciated

I will do my best to fix the grammatical and writing errors within this work, but there is no promise that I will find all of them.

The motion sickness thing is an important part of the class, and it is a drawback, a deadly one at that, imagine being on a boat and unable to fight if you're attacked.

Is it possible to go lower than half with spell casting? If so than I will.

The additional attacks thing is only optional (I'll be sure to put that) you don't need to do it, you'd be just as fine with only the Iron fist attack, I just put it there because it'd be lame if all the "martial artist" could do was punch people.

I'll tone down the power of the secret arts that have problems and lower their levels to the point of usability.

I'll take away one of the extra attacks if it'll make you feel better.

I'll lower the rate of growth of the dragon roar, it does go a little fast in my opinion now that I look at it.

I can't lower the power boost in dragon force. But I can increase the damaging side effect.

They are dragon slayers, they have dragon magic, no duh they can fly.

I'll get rid of Draconic Restoration, that is a stupid ability.

If there are any other problems, please tell me.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nemon0416 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

The class doesn't have to be made usable immediately, users can continually work on it while it still has templates on the page. Besides these suggestions, not being able to fight just because of the place your are in and not receiving healing through the Heal Block feature doesn't make for a balanced, positive, or useful features and the class shouldn't have negative features, Draconic Senses still shouldn't give you advantage on Dexterity saves, Elemental Buffet is extremely overpowered(healing through elemental damage is not ok, it is very abusable) and it is gotten at 4th level(no class ever gets features at 4th level, the class needs spellcasting that isn't based on Constitution(maybe Charisma), Dragon Slayer: Iron Fist should be along the lines of the monk's martial arts feature and not have a bonus to hit as it is extremely abuseable with multiclassing and is in general extremely strong, and the Dragon Force feature is still a non standard(it lasts for a 5 minutes, it increases your damage output by too much, it is a effect that boosts AC which is really strong, and is overall extremely poorly worded).

I do have a thought about the class though, I was thinking that it might make sense to make you select a subclass at 1st level and make the subclasses based on an element of your choice. That way, the class can have a list of spells like the paladin, each subclass/element could have different features that emphasizes their strengths, and the Dragon Slayer Secret Arts would be made into spells with this class having links to them(which should be done anyway).--Blobby383b (talk) 11:07, 24 March 2018 (MDT)

Nemon at some point I'll make some edits to the page to improve it mechanically. I don't know if the class can be kept on the wiki in the long term, so it will be worth making your own offline copy if you want to keep it. Otherwise, look at the edits I make and consider it a learning exercise. Marasmusine (talk) 13:36, 17 April 2018 (MDT)

And uh if it's kept it needs a new name. I'm sick of seeing "dragon slayer" this and "dragon slayer" that. Marasmusine (talk) 13:38, 17 April 2018 (MDT)

Offer of Assistance

Hello everyone, as a small intro, I have been watching this class and been playing a dragon slayer for awhile, playtesting every update to the class. Currently at level 10 and would like to toss my proverbial hat into this ring. I have been contemplating over some ways to help balance the class, mostly some of its most notable features. This is still in progress but I want to send my regards to the creator first and simply ask for initial feedback. I would wish to make this class enjoyable for as many as I can. I will add in some additions and ideas I have here first. Feel free to critique. Thanks everyone. -Rillie

Offer of Assistance

I saw that class because someone in my game is playing a dragon slayer. During some weeks the class was edited. AC was changed to be calculated with 3 stat mods, every other level was a Ability Score Improvement, lvl 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 and 19. AC has now more variation, a dextrous and evasiv style or a tanky and brute force style Now ists calculated with 2 stat mods und back to the normal Ability Score Improvement lvls. The half sellcasting table and extra cantrips for flexebility is added. I think there must be a spell and draconic ability ressource added (Dragon Energy?, like ki and Sorcery Points), the Breath Attack makes 2d10 but a dragonborn makes only 2d6 tha max of the dragon slayer is 14d10???, a dragonborn caps at 5d6 Would chande the iron fist with a differet name, like a dragon martial arts or something like that and make it a class options, like the Fairy Tale version, and a 2nd would be like a monster hunter dragonslayer type with elemental imbued weapons or elemental created weapons. i hope somebody reads this, becouse the last update is a year old, but the principle of this class ist based on a monk and sorcerer with fairy tale flavor. hope we can work on finishing it or balancing it, big thanks to everyone.

Fun Fact about the cubic feet temp HP

So let's suppose your wizard friend decided to cast a Fireball a little too close for comfort. Naturally, you'd use your 9th level ability to absorb the spell and reduce the damage taken to you and your paladin friend while still getting some damage in on the hydra you're dealing with. As a result, you gain temporary hitpoints based on every 5 cubic feet. To calculate this cubic feet, we use the following formula for spherical volume:

Volume = (4/3)pi*r^3

The radius of a Fireball of any spell level is 20 feet, as indicated in the Player's Handbook, so 20 feet cubed is 8000 ft^3. This 8000 is then multiplied by both pi and (4/3), giving a total of 33510 cubic feet, rounding down for neatness. Divided by 5, the total bonus temporary bonus received for absorbing a fireball is 6702(d10 + Wisdom Modifier). Supposing that we have a +2 to our Wisdom, and that we roll an average of 5, we can determine the amount of temporary health received by multiplying 6702 by 5+2 (which is 7).

6702*7= 46914 temporary hitpoints

For perspective, a Tarrasque has 990 hitpoints with maximum rolls ((33*20) +330), dealing an average of 178 damage per round (including using legendary actions in the most optimal method to deal damage). This, of course, assumes every attack hits and that it decided to swallow someone else instead of the literal dragon-man in front of him. To break the temporary hitpoints, a total of 263 and a half full damage rotations before breaking the temporary hitpoints.

Which, of course, can be remedied by the wizard casting another fireball.

If you want to try this with a higher volume object, be my guest. Walls tend to do poorer than spheres, mainly because walls have a 1 foot depth that screws with the total volume compared to the area.

Meteor swarm, a 9th level fire damage spell, gives a shield of 375,315 using the radius of 40 ft. shown in the Player Handbook.

The lesson here, of course, is volume is a tricky thing. And also that WotC doesn't know how big a 20 ft radius is, but that's outside my paygrade.

missing subclasses

Simply put, a class doesn't need subclasses. If that's the only thing keeping this from being complete, I'm going to remove it. (PickleJarPete (talk) 01:14, 3 April 2020 (MDT))

Problems

Listen the class is way to overpowered I have someone who is playing it and the entire group wants to quit because of it. If you want it to be more fair lower the amount of spell levels they can cast down to 2nd level. Get rid of evasion because with the health and ac they have they don't need it and in all honesty make it so they don't have such a high multi attack at most attack twice that it is and lower the ac to a more reasonable number

Subclass Header Size

Do it mater? Why does it matter it just looks better. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Killer Queen (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.