Talk:Dragon Knight (5e Class)

Any questions or concerns? I would love any kind of feedback.

Major Changes

I've been trying to change this class, without taking any of the features originally created off this class, just relocating them. Some doesn't make sense on the subclass, so they were being placed on the class, and vice versa. I did this because the concepts of the classes wasn't very well defined by the features. Anastacio (talk) 11:56, 14 June 2020 (MDT)

Strike of Antimagic and Dragon Blade (Dragon Blood 7th and 18th level features, respectively) make more thematic sense on the Dragon Slayer and, coincidentally, Draconic Expulsion and Dragon Fury (Dragon Blade 7th and 18th level features, respectively) makes more sense on the Dragon Blood. Anastacio (talk) 19:43, 30 June 2020 (MDT)

Updates

Condensed the dragon table into a simplified stat block. Anastacio (talk) 01:27, 15 June 2020 (MDT)

Reworded all of the core class features and some of the subclass features. Balanced some powers and changed the order of the articles a bit. Anastacio (talk) 11:26, 14 June 2020 (MDT)

Edited out the minor grammatical errors so as to remove the wording template. DeathBringer (talk) 08:01, 5 April 2019 (MDT)

Changed the way you calculate the dragon AC if it has armour on as i did some quick math and realized that you could eaisally get numbers in the high 30's if it wore heavy armour, so i changed it from AC= 13 + Bonus + Armour. to just AC= Armour + bonus. Drexan (March, 10 2018. 15:07)

Added a save DC to the Bellow of Fear, as it was missing one, feel free to adjust it if you think it's a little too high. I just put it mainly as a placeholder for now since there simply wasn't one there. (Drexan.) March 6, 2018.

Added the major trait: Collective attack. as it wasn't clear if the dragon has multi attack or not, so I created a "watered down" version of it. (Drexan.) March 6, 2018

Changed the wording of: lords direction. as it wasn't clear if it meant that you use your bonus action to direct an attack from the dragon and then, if it's intelligence is high enough, it can make another attack in the same turn. Or if you use your bonus action to direct it, but if it's intelligence is high enough it doesn't need you to. I turned it into the latter as it makes more sense from my point of view. (Drexan.) March 6, 2018.

Turned: Dragon Assault. into: Symbiotic Assault. As dragon assault litterally did the exact same thing that lords direction did if your dragons intelligence is high enough, basically turning it into a useless skill that was taking up a late game skill slot. Symbiotic assault solves the dilemma of the class needing an extra attack without actually giving it a perminant extra attack that isn't locked behind one of the dragon lord trees, and also further shows the bond between the knight and his/her dragon. (Drexan.) March 6, 2018.

On 11/07/2017, I changed a bunch of stuff for balance based off of DMing with this class in my campaign for 4 months, once a week. We will be using this again in the next campaign so I will probably change stuff up again later. I also added in a paragraph that talks about playing the Dragon Knight so that way it would make more sense in an encounter. I feel like this class is closer to being in balance but I think it has a bit to go. Personally I want to change the dragon so it never gets past Large size but I felt like that hurt the "idea" of the class. I think the class still has a lot of power which could be fixed if some features were just straight out removed from the class or rewritten, but I don't want to completely change the "idea" of the character. Unless I get told I can. The class concept is awesome and I hope it goes somewhere in the future. -Mr.Penguin 11/07/2017

On 11/04/2017, I went ahead and did a bunch a grammar changes and plan to do more throughout the day. I also changed some die and re-balanced some things after having both played and having a player play this class in campaign. Pretty fun class :) -Mr.Penguin 11/04/2017

Hey, random guy here, I did a lot of updates to the text such as clarification and grammar checking. This class is a log graph, at the start it is not much but later on gets to the point of extreme strength. Op really does not make sense here like what previous posts were saying, since the GM can just adjust the CR to match the party. The dragon knight class is balanced out now and should be put back to the original classes list since it has been fixed and has content that rivals the PHB. Also thanks to whoever created this class it's really cool and I look forward to playing it. -Random Guy 3/2/2017 2:35Pm

Dragon Template has been completely reworked, please let me know if this seems better or worse. --Tubal-Cain (talk) 21:31, 30 September 2015 (MDT)

If your a random IP that is trying to balance the Dragon Knight, please knock it off. We don't need random edits to make the dragon strong or weak as you see fit. Please make an account and discuss what you want to change. Draykan your change for aging and AC increase is fine. The dragon is actually stupidly weak when I start new games with it. I wouldn't mind if you, me and Gassner help oversee this page so we can actually get some development going. You guys have some good suggestions and ideas that might help fix some of the issues this class has. --Technique (talk) 9:56, 20 May 2016 (PST)

updated the dragon command action to standard since no other pet class can do this as a bonus action, also updated the breath attack recharge--Suppoko (talk) 05:58, 2 June 2016 (MDT)

I utterly disagree with changing it from a bonus to a standard. Doing so destroys any effectiveness the dragon and knight can do. You're basically saying that you can use either the dragon, or the knight every turn. And at level 5, when he gains an extra attack but the dragon doesn't, it means nobody is going to want to use the dragon when the knight ends up being more viable. You might as well get rid of the dragon, for all the effectiveness it will have. --Draykan (talk) 06:21, 2 June 2016 (MDT)

The DK is a pet class, just like a ranger and his animal companion. how can you not see how OP it is to allow essentially two characters to go at one time on the same initiative? ESPECIALLY at level 14 when you allow the dragon to multi-attack (At 11th lvl the ranger animal can only make 2 attacks) when the ranger gains extra attack he gets 1 swing and the companion gets the other. Allowing it the other way makes the rest of the part pale in comparison--Suppoko (talk) 07:00, 2 June 2016 (MDT)

Unfortunately, yes, I can see how it can be OP. However, changing it just leaves DK stupidly underpowered. The whole point of this is dragon and knight working together, fighting as one, attacking alongside the other one. If you make it so that only one of them can attack per turn, you destroy the effectiveness of the class, and you might as well just play a ranger for all the usefullness of the class. It's dragon knight, not ranger, and if you want to play a ranger where only one of them can attack, go play ranger. Don't turn DK into a ranger. --Draykan (talk) 07:17, 2 June 2016 (MDT)

I don't want to "go play a ranger" but you simply can't just make the class OP because you feel like the ranger is weak. The dragon is already stronger than any animal companion choice a ranger gets without being allowed a full attack along with the knight. As I suggested in an earlier comment one of the sub classes should be a Rider type class that the dragon and knight actually DO work together and maybe put an "as one" ability in that specific sub class that they can both use a full attack a number of times per short/long rest? but to allow bonus action attacking is too OP. I would do a 5 level dip here and have a dragon I could ride as a small player and be a wizard or something else with an abusive range going in when I felt like it attacking and back out again. Or even more attacking then casting invisibility.--Suppoko (talk) 07:35, 2 June 2016 (MDT)

Taking a dip only matters if you're gaming it, instead of playing in character. The class is meant as something you do as itself, not to multiclass into. I can see it being broken if you did that, but how are you going to explain to your DM how you've gotten a dragon? That you are forever bound to and who shares your life and soul? I guess that's the biggest difference, if you look at it through a purely game sense, then it can be broken, but making such a brokenness thematically work would be nigh on impossible. That's my take on it, I view things from a thematic, how would this feel as it's meant to be played, sort of way. --Draykan (talk) 17:06, 2 June 2016 (MDT)

If it helps, you DO realize that literally any class can go out and buy a pet, right? And that pet has its own initiative and action economy? And the owner controls it with *no action required*? There is a reason WotC is redoing the Ranger. THEgassner (talk) 13:44, 3 June 2016 (MDT)

no, it really doesn't help considering it's quite unlikely you can BUY a dragon. Also, you're not going to gain any class benefits like this class gives with a dog you buy. If they change the ranger great but I still think it's OP to have those attacks as well as your own with a dragon. It can get abusive fast--Suppoko (talk) 14:46, 3 June 2016 (MDT)

There is ZERO game balance to this class as it stands it has no equal in power to any playable class in any wizards game book, I'm sorry but this class is the reason nobody can take these made up classes seriously. You gave the class TWO legendary actions before 20th level on top of giving the class essentially another PC to control not to mention the myriad of other OP powers it gets--Suppoko (talk) 15:41, 6 June 2016 (MDT)

The Dragon Knight is so OP, that at level 2 he was totally annihilated by a level 2 Barbarian (Sarcasm). The Dragon PET is not even remotely usefull before it reaches level 4 since you would spend the first two Major Traits teaching it to fly and plausibly increasing his Stats so that it doesn't die from a crossbow bolt. I still believe you should generate the stats for the dragon the same way you generate them for the character, or begin with the wyrmling stats of the official Manuals (Flight included as a starting feature, since it is not a particular advantage before level 3.) The Dragon Knight is actually weak in comparison to many other classes and once you reach higher (more competitive) levels any wizzard or sorcerer can hand you your own burnt ass, wrapped in a nice little bow. --Knulpich (talk) 10:56 7 June 2016 (CEST)

yes please let's give it stats that compare to a PC class......and while I agree it doesn't get OP until later on that doesn't change the fact you get 2 legendary actions, and another PC to control. I'm not sure how a wizard or sorc could stand and fight with this class at all. A 2 on 1 fight unless expected is going to be the end of the caster. You may not agree but that's just how I see it. As I've said before no other PET class allows for bonus action attacks.--Suppoko (talk) 04:43, 7 June 2016 (MDT)

I have yet to understand where you would see the 2 legendary actions. If you are talking about Legendary Resistance - which is a once per day automatic win on one Save and I understand it to be Legendary only in name - plus the Level 15 feature for the the three archetypes, I do not see the problem. 1) "Channel Dragon's Might" takes away your attack for 1 minute of "+Chr" to damage rolls (5 minutes of +10 to damage. At best.) 2) "Legendary Interference" is a situational counter. 3) "Mithical Flight" is an enchanted piece of cloth, that makes you fly for one hour...yeah, have fun watching out for those barely-hanging chandeliers. If the actions you are referring to are other, please do tell me because I'm seriously curious. That aside, Breath Attack and Dragon's Assault are limited to "this much times between to long rests", and a Gargantuan Dragon only does a 2d8+Str qith a regular "Lord's Direction" - There are 7 weapons in this Wiki with the same damage output than the bite of a GARGANTUAN Dragon. And only two of those require 19 strength to use. It is true that the +Str of the Dragon could be bigger, but you only have 28 as the maximum for any Ability (+9) you know who else has +9 base damage at level 20? A Barbarian. A single turn from the Raging Barbarian Berserker in a Frenzy deals a base of (27+6) 35 damage, hoping he rolled only 1s on each d8 and assuming there are no buffs involved (like a magic weapon and/or party buff from a friendly mage). 35-49 Damage every turn. Because a lv 20 Barbarian basically lives in a state of Rage. Ehm...I got a bit too rambly, sorry. Long story short "A character should be an Asset to the team, a Piece in the grand game of the master and (even more) an The Link between the Player and the GameWorld." Statistics can be OP, he who plays only by the Stats and only on the Roll is responsible for abusing it. Roleplay, before you Roll-play. -- --Knulpich (talk) 00:02 8 June 2016 (CEST)

Tubal I know this is your class but I undid your revision because you removed format changes done by a mod that were put in. Clearly your free to change the class but while you've been gone a lot has happened to the class including wording and format changes. Please take a look and see what has been done before you go back to an old version.--Suppoko (talk) 07:26, 20 July 2016 (MDT)

Hey, random guy here, I did a lot of updates to the text such as clarification and grammar checking. This class is a log graph, at the start it is not much but later on gets to the point of extreme strength. Op really does not make sense here like what previous posts were saying, since the GM can just adjust the CR to match the party. The dragon knight class is balanced out now and should be put back to the original classes list since it has been fixed and has content that rivals the PHB. Also thanks to whoever created this class it's really cool and I look forward to playing it. -Random Guy 3/2/2017 2:35Pm

Errors

you can get chain mail which is heavy armor and you don't have proficiency for it?

Thanks, I fixed it --Tubal-Cain (talk) 22:53, 25 July 2015 (MDT)

Looking at Dragoon vs. Overall Class here, Armor of Yore gives you advantage on Con saves -as well as some other things- but you also get advantage on Con and Strength saves with Draconic Fortitude. Probably just an oversight, but an error nonetheless. I would alter Armor of Yore before Draconic Fortitude, though. THEgassner 00:16, 26 March 2016

Anyone mind if I go ahead and take care of this? It's been here for two months. THEgassner (talk) 14:15, 3 June 2016 (MDT)

I can't imagine why fixing an error would be a problem. --Suppoko (talk) 14:42, 3 June 2016 (MDT)

Just noticed, as I'm playing this class in my campaign, that there are a lot of mentions of extra attack through the text even though the knight doesn't get any, like the slayers final ability it says that the extra attack you get stacks with the ones you already have even though you don't have any. Idk if you don't want the knight to have extra attacks but if not you should really fix all the abilities that mention it. (Drexan.) 06:12, 6 March 2018

Problems

I think the page has too many images. One or two is fine, otherwise there's a lot of unnecessary scrolling and the page just looks bad. Please also attribute the artist and if possible link to the original image on the artist's web page. Marasmusine (talk) 08:16, 27 June 2015 (MDT)

If nothing is going to happen with this, then I'll go ahead and replace the images with correctly hosted alternatives with proper attribution. Marasmusine (talk) 08:16, 12 July 2015 (MDT)

Sorry been extremely busy and haven't been able to update my pages much recently, aside from just placing the link in the description is there a cleaner way to go about this? --Tubal-Cain (talk) 18:26, 26 July 2015 (MDT)

The idea solution is to find copyleft images that can be uploaded to the wiki and resized.

Otherwise do whatever you can to link to an image hosted legally (e.g. the artist's own page) and avoid images larger than 400 px wide.

In either case credit the artist and provide a link in the image frame.

Two images are sufficient, I do get fed up having to scroll up and down excessively to read the page. Marasmusine (talk) 03:32, 27 July 2015 (MDT)

I like the new Dragon template a lot more than the old one. I've worked with my DM a lot to play test this class before you changed it, and we came up with a system that worked for us. I won't get into that, because this is still your class, but I had a couple of comments about the traits. First, there aren't enough of them; especially minor traits. Every build ends up looking the same, and that is kind of boring. Second, a lot of the major traits are inconsistent in their power level. For instance, you could take the Proficiency trait, or you could take the Resilient feat, which is just better in every way. Another example: Getting the ability to Fly or Burrow is much better than being able to swim at walking speed, as every character can swim at half walking speed by default, but no PC can fly or burrow by default. Also, not sure how I feel about Invincibility. I love the idea of customizing your dragon's growth, just wish we had more options. I ended up implementing a combination of your new version and my/my DM's old version, and added a bunch of traits. It took a bit more work to balance but it is much more fun (although slightly weaker) to play now vs what you had before. So, good job with that. --Wuorg (talk) 03:19, 19 October 2015 (MDT)

Thanks for the input, I got rid of invincibility (something someone else added), I'll be adding more traits and probably leavng out the swim speed, sorry for the slow update, for some reason I never was alerted by your comment. --Tubal-Cain (talk) 01:09, 25 October 2015 (MDT)

I was just looking through the site for something like this and really like it, but I feel that the fighting styles and spells the Dragoon subclass gets don't balance really well. For instance, the thunder god spell deals on average (assuming a +4 strength and +3 charisma and dragon's might active) 81 damage which can be split up among targets, as well as the ability to move very quickly (generally 60 feet) without provoking opportunity attacks. However, a flameshot with the same stats will generally only deal 38 damage (at a slightly longer range), and only to one target. Keep in mind that with Spinning Cane (which I assumed included polearms; please correct me if I'm wrong), you will deal on average (with a +1 weapon and dragon's might active) 32.5 damage. This means you only get about a turn's worth of damage with flameshot, but almost three turn's worth with thunder god. Also (though this may be intentional), the Bow seems to deal significantly less damage than the other fighting styles, and also requires that you put in several extra points into dexterity, which would give the Dragon Knight a pretty bad case of MAD unless he focused on this less than stellar option. In addition, it is unclear as to whether Flurry of Styx gives two extra attacks, just one, or two extra attacks that deal no damage but push the target. One last (minor) thing I was concerned about: since the stunned condition is relatively rare in 5e, and poisoned is pretty specific, I was hoping you could think of something that would make Armor of Yore as appealing as the other 10th level features. Everything else is amazing; keep up the good work! --UltimateDefender18 (talk) 20:34, 31 October 2015 (CDT)

Spinning cane does not apply your modifier to the 2 additional attacks out damage rolls meaning it his lighter and less frequently, yes you can use pole arms with it, flurry if Styx asks you to make 2 unarmed attacks and if both attacks connect you get the secondary effect, don't forget that you have access to all art if war styles, but may only apply one at a time, pinning shot isn't the must used style, but can be invaluable in certain situations and as far as flame shot is concerned I see your concern and am making it a line with a dexterity save instead. Thanks for the feedback and I hope this helps. --Tubal-Cain (talk) 16:30, 1 November 2015 (MST)

If Channel Dragon's Might doesn't add anything to the extra attacks given by Spinning Cane, Cross Slash, and Crush Dance, then I think you should specify that.It does say "to all your attacks", so it is easy to get confused. --UltimateDefender18 (talk) 18:07 1 November 2015 (CDT)

I was talking about your strength modifier, channel dragon's might would still add to your damage of each attack but not the actual attack roll. So yes if you were going for a nova round thunder god would deal the most damage to a single target. --Tubal-Cain (talk) 17:46, 1 November 2015 (MST)

If a dragon learns casting it can learn any spell of the sorcerer spell book so that means that a lvl 3 dragon has access to lvl 9 spells more or less from the get-go. --Daraenor (talk) 14:11, 29 November 2016 (MST)

Yes me and my friends read how the original caster feat was used and found that it wasn't clear on what spells they could learn and how many times they could cast it. after reading that dragons can cast any spell long as they know it and even if its a psuedodragon it would still count we had a rather large talk trying to find a way to make the feat clearer and make more sense that was the best we could come up with in sight its still not the best answer because the whole level 9 spell from the get go. We may soon try to make it better if no one else fix's it or comes up with a much better solution to that feat

Questions

Hi, so i have a few questions about the class. Thee dragon companion part constantly refers to a special "dragon class" though all i could find was a basic stat block. So the quesions if a dragon gets ability score improvements as it levels up and how does their proficency level works stays as a mystery. So is there a "dragon class" document/page to answer these questions or does the dragon just follow the standard ais and profcency bonus of other classes. + Also does the dragon always require its owner to give a command to attack? It's what i understood from the wiki but i thought i might haeve got it wrong since 2 attacks from the knight and one attack from the dragon (using knights reaction) sounds pretty lame for level 20. + Also one last question, if the dragon has a feat that allows it to do soemthing as a bonus action, can it use that bonus action on its own or does it still need a command from the knight? + (ik this is not the suggestions page but i think it would be a lot better if the dragon would have its own action economy since the base knight is so weak) (username: LebekeleW)

Hi, i have several questions with the breath attack feature. What do you mean by Damage/Time/Distance? What dragons use the Special Breath attacks? How are the Special Breath attacks calculated? Which ones use cone or line? Please reply at your earliest convenience, thank you. --Ramon1357 (talk) 17:32, 26 October 2016 (MDT)

Hey, When you say the dragon is immune to it's element. For the Metallic dragon, what elements do they have? Does it follow the monster mannual? From Vailoom. jan 23 2016

what exactly happens to the dragon if the player dies? since it is magically connected to the player im just curious :::. If

I would assume the Dragon would die as well, if that is your question. Reading this, correct me if I am wrong, Tubal-Cain, it seems like there is a distinct Eragon feel to it. So in my opinion, the dragon would die as well. I am currently playing this and that is how we're gonna run it, but that's just us. THEgassner (talk) 08:22, 24 March 2016 (MDT)

Looking at something for another character when something hit me. Draconic Fortitude reduces fall damage by 2 times your D.K. level, correct? The (official) Monk's Slow Fall feature (received at level 4) reduces fall damage by five times your monk level. Quick comparison, but the Monk at level 11 (when a D.K. gets Fortitude) will be reducing up to 55 damage, while the Dragon Knight is only reducing 22. Both are, admittedly, situational, but the fact that the Dragon Knight, particularly with you having said they are based on the Final Fantasy interpretation of a Dragoon, should be able to reduce more damage. As I have said before, this is your class, and all edits are entirely up to you, I just did some math. THEgassner (talk) 16:58, 5 April 2016 (MDT)

I agree with this, I'm thinking increase it to 3-4 times the level. Maybe even the 5 the monk has. Because it's so situational, it's more of a thematic thing, like the warlock's undying trait, but I feel like it would fit the feel you're going for. --Draykan (talk) 19:07, 16 May 2016 (MDT)

It's not situational at all when you are able to use your companion to act as a bomb delivery system. It's an opening fight damage nova with zero cost, the dragon flies over and you just fall onto the ground damaging all creatures around you THEN you even get to do your actual attacks it is quite strong. The monk at least has some explanation for WHY he's slowing his fall as opposed to this class....."I saw it in some anime and thought it was cool"--Suppoko (talk) 09:57, 28 May 2016 (MDT)

The times when it can be used are situational, since the only time damage takes effect, is if they're touching an object. IE, they're in a cart, then both the cart, and the people and objects in it take damage. Otherwise, it's just a save for falling prone. --Draykan (talk) 10:38, 28 May 2016 (MDT)

I have a question, it may be because of the choice of words but the major trait for the dragon "Fly" gives the ability to fly to the dragon or the dragon knight? --Daraenor (talk) 13:58, 29 November 2016 (MST)

Concerns

If I may offer a few suggestions. If we're going to say the AC is equal to draconic sorcerer, plus the bonus, you should state somewhere its AC = 13+DEX Modifier+AC bonus. Just to help clear it up. Also, bring back the major feat at level 1. Even with it, you're still having more minors than majors, and without it, you're making it much slower to start up. And as I'm seeing, this is a class that is very weak to start, making is a slower start only compounds that problem. Just a few things I was noticing, do with them as you will. --Draykan (talk) 21:16, 15 May 2016 (MDT)

Giving the dragon barding has now upped the dragon's potential AC to a max of 28, that is MORE than the quintessential BBEG the Tarrasque and with his +19 to hit he has just over a 50% chance to hit a lvl20 PET, the dragon is a pet not a PC and yet should it feel the want to it could destroy an entire party. It's bad enough the 17th lvl power give a PC a legendary action that NO other class comes close to and then at 20 he gains the ability to attack as a CR 24 creature. Also, PLEASE for the love of balance make the command dragon feature a standard action. It is crazy OP that you get your full attack actions AND allow the dragon to attack as well.--Suppoko (talk) 07:05, 28 May 2016 (MDT)

Potential AC, but doing that will completely destroy any effectiveness the dragon has. Assuming you give it 12 DEX to start, you would need to spend 16 points to do that, which is 16 points that can't go into adding anything to its other stats, which is shooting yourself in the foot. --Draykan (talk) 07:17, 2 June 2016 (MDT)

Perhaps it could be changed to place a restriction on the Dex mod to AC for heavier armor while increasing the base AC for heavier armors in a way that's more in-line with the currently established rules concerning armor. (ie: max bonus of 2 for medium armor with no bonus on heavy) That way you could keep the dragon's AC at a decent number while not having to drop so much into Dexterity in addition to keeping the possible max AC in check. (Also 100x multiplier for the cost seems excessive for all but the most ridiculously of well-funded parties. I would bring that closer to the x4 multiplier presented for horse barding with an upscale for larger dragons.)--Drednite (talk) 04:03, 8 August 2016 (CDT)

Less of an actual class update, but just so EVERYONE involved knows, this class is the laughing stock of several subreddits. We need to get our s*** together and work to make this thing not only balanced, but playable. Come on, lads and lasses, we can do this, we just have to put our minds to it. THEgassner (talk) 20:34, 12 September 2016 (MDT)

As a note, the language in many parts of the wiki are vague, at best. As it reads now when taking the "Caster" trait the dragon can learn any spell from the sorcerer's spell list, regardless of level. This gives them access to Wish which literally says its the "most powerful spell a mortal can cast" and giving it to a PC at level 3 is insane.

It seems someone has been going around and vandilizing the page, I fixed the wording for a lot of things and made it more fair.

The breath attack damage has recently been updated and it is much too high now. I suggest bringing it down at least a few d6 per size. 04/03/2017

FAQ

hey does the dragon use up the knights attacks or does the dragon and knight have their own seperate attack im confused since the dragon has traits which gives it extra attacks to a total of 3 and the knight also gets extra attacks im just curious if its like the weak ranger from the PHB or is it more like the UA ranger and if its like the UA ranger why not give the dragon its own seperate turn. JAY B 27/04/18

---

you may, as a bonus action, direct your dragon to make a single attack against a target within its range. If it has an Intelligence of 10 or more, it may self direct an attack as well

If i am reading this right, does it work like this: If you have a <10 Int Dragon, it can only attack on your bonus action If you have a >=10 Int Dragon, it can attack on your bonus action AND its own action? or should it be OR?

- ianfhunter

Thank You

If you have helped in any way, thank you for your support.

Suggestions

I'm looking at the overpowered tag at the top of the page, and am thinking that it would be more balanced to move Strike Of Antimagic to the 15th level ability, where it would be more balanced, and move Mythical flight levels 10 giving the subclass the ability to fly only a little earlier than they would have anyway. In addition, I would recommend moving dragon scales to the level three ability, where it is less underpowered. I think Power Of Blood is really overpowered, but since it is the whole idea of the subclass move it to level seven, because at that point 2 extra hit points per level to a level 7 character on a d8 hit die is a lot less overpowered then 2 hit points extra per level on a level 3 or 4 on the same sized die. In addition, debuff Art of War by only gaining 1 of the fighting styles. Those fighting stiles are too strong for you to have two at third level. The problem with just moving it up to the next spot in the dragoon progression is that the othere abiities are also two powerful for level three. I would also suggest that you reduce the number of temp hitpoints from Fuel of the slayer, and make it have limited uses. I would have that worke its way up from 5 hitpoints, adding , and have the number of uses per equal to the Dragon Slayer's constitution mod plus one with a min of 1, with a cooldown in between each use, and resetting with the completion of a long rest. Otherwise the slayer would beable to have more hitpoints at the end of a fight than at the begining. DeathBringer (talk) 07:38, 5 April 2019 (MDT)

Hey for stat block or array for the dragon I did the calculations following a Pseudodragon. The stat block is 20 points that can be used with the idea of having 14 be the highest number for any stat. This offers more diversity and player customization compared to the current stat block offered which is only an 18 point distribution. Another idea (because this is a dragon) is have everything start at 10 rather than 8 and then offer people 12 points to use as they choose. Obviously my first approach is what most closely resembles the pseudodragon but seeing as this is a mythical power house of a creature it should be given certain allowances. In the end from power scaling in terms of possible points being offered the weakest is currenlty what is being offered, the second best would be the ability to distribute the 20 points as you choose with a maximum scaling for any stat being 14. The best option would be for the base for all scores being 10 with an additional 12 points that can be used as chosen (again with a maximum of 14 for any stat).

For all the types of dragons their alignments should follow what the Monster Manuel offers for them and their attribute should follow an element universally rather than having chromatic dragons elemental and metallic having some form of crowd control effect. By keeping this level (equal) you dont cause confusion when resistances/immunities based off of the dragons element arise.

You could probably do a nice little ribbon on this class that would function like the Undying Warlock or Druid, aka slowed aging. Like.... Every 10 years your race would age you age one but you live a long ass time? It is a common theme when Dragons are involved.

I don't think platinum dragons should be an option as the only platinum dragon is Bahamut, the god of good dragons. Hes often recognized as 'the platinum dragon', so letting PCs stroll around town with what looks like the god of good dragons following him might not be the best idea :P

First please sign your posts. For this suggestion I really don't see this as a problem, there can be other platinum dragons in the universe then, whatever the DM allows. If you really find this a big deal you can switch the dragon type to a different metal that you can make up or use something like mithril. Or have one of the metal dragons can use radiant breath when it gains the appropriate trait. Technique (talk) 15:40, 24 May 2016 (MDT)

So, after completing a campaign as a Dragon Knight, I have discovered a couple things. 1) The dragon is simultaneously overpowered and underpowered. Its AC is fine with the 13+Dex+Bonus, but it has amazing spike damage and not amazing regular damage. The breath attack is cool, but the minute recharge is a little gimped, at the same time, the damage is okay. The multiattack thing could be possible (it's been discussed prior) but you would have to reduce the die, and with the Knight not having extra attack, it's almost essential. 2) Hitpoints: there is a right way and a wrong way to pull this off. You could reduce the hit die to a d8 for the knight, a d4 for the dragon (cumulative d12) and have the hitpool sharing be constant, or you could keep it like it is, however, there is an issue with that. You have too many things as the knight that use your reaction, more if you do any kind of casting as a portion. Probably the best outcome is the cumulative d12, which has another benefit, which brings up 3) the lack of an extra attack. You seem to be set in not giving the Knight extra attack, but it is clearly meant to be a Martial class. Even just a secondary attack from the knight is something. The class is bent in a way that it is almost "Dragon+this guy that stands by it." By level 20, you should be a force of nature, ready to demolish everything in sight. Maybe make Multiattack an option, make Dragon's Assault a sort of Action surge that gains 2 uses per day at 20, lower the cooldown of breath attack at 20. Through my playthrough, the only issue that was had was that I kept being able to avoid damage because of the shared health. There are a lot of ways to balance this class and make it work, it is really fun, I just think it needs nerfs in some places, and buffs in others. A couple of other, more minor things, blood lord should lose heavy armor, and go to a quarter progression caster like an Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster. It makes more sense, maybe use Warlock spells with a few based on your dragon's element? Maybe grant it the same AC as the dragon. The Slayer should get Heavy Armor, seriously, you kill dragons for a living. The Dragoon should lose the expanded fighting styles and gain the ability to be under the effects of the Jump spell permanently. You really break the flow when one can just attack multiple times. Even without the bonus, you aren't doing bad damage. Better than the other two, at least. Also, there is a minor language issue, when talking about the Dragon's abilities, you might want to use "Your Dragon" instead of "your," as the latter brings up the idea of using the Dragon Knight's scores instead of the Dragon's. Again, this is a really fun class, and I had a blast playing it, it is just incredibly unbalanced with the other classes. In most cases it's far overpowered, but in others, it feels so weak. THEgassner (talk) 23:52, 16 May 2016 (MDT)

How about the Dragoon loses the Art the war and we give it to the Dragon slayer instead (or keeps Art of war, make it more limited and add in spell-casting)? The fuel of my slayer imo isn't really that great for most dragon types(in my experience when I tried the archtype), so I don't mind having it as another benefit. To fix the opening gap for Dragoon, the archtype should spell-casting at the 3rd level, similar to the AT and EK and can cast spells from the Sorcerer spellbook in addition to a few new spells made just for the Dragoon itself. I think the breath attack is balanced in a way, I feel like getting rid of the recharge would be a bit too much, 30 seconds maybe? For 5th level, an extra attack should be there 100%, I really don't know why Tubal is so adamant about giving no extra attacks, especially for this class. I been actually working on making a PHB edition (basically a DnD style sheet) for the dragon, but I made my own edits and changes that made this class a whole a lot more balanced and more diverse when it came to picking archtypes (Blood Lord makes the Knight itself a lot more tankier, while the Dragon slayer simply got a few buffs all around, Dragoon is an archtype caster and has new abilities to replace the missing spells, allowing to bond himself to a weapon through a dragonic ritual and the ability to move around the field through a special edition of trackless step I made for myself. I was gonna make the Dragoon aimed towards a dragon rider since that what the name means [A cavalry unit], but decided to go all in for spellcasting. I hope Tubal doesn't take this personal or insulting, I am not really here to steal any attention or work, as I do give credit to Tubal-cain for his amazing creation of this class in the document (although I am probably not gonna release it publicly, it just something me and my DM have been working on), but I personally don't like the current values and lack of attention this class is getting so I am just making something my friends and DM would approve of and have a lot of fun with it. Technique (talk) 16:15, 24 May 2016 (MDT)

I feel like the Blood Lord should be the spellcaster (looking at his other abilities, it makes more sense), but I agree with the slayer. Might take it one step further and give Slayer the Weapon proficiencies, but to give Dragoon that extra crunch, maybe make it so he can wield those fancy polearms with one hand. Filling dead space with dragoon now, I agree with the weapon bond, and if you wanted to give them something, maybe take a note out of Battlemaster and give a sort of superiority die thing. Maybe a leaping attack, a sweeping attack, and a trip attack? Alternatively, you could give them Charis/day spells that would be that innate dragon magic. On that note, take away that stipulation on Moonlight, it's the only limited magic in the list. You may decide to get rid of that alltogether, the magic I mean, and give them a fancy Draconic Might ability, where they can do a thing based on their dragon, stuff that would give them a boost, and when they're maxed out they can do it Charis/day. This thing should probably be balanced against the Paladin for obvious reasons, they both have a similar progression and they should be in a sort of competition. THEgassner (talk) 22:45, 24 May 2016 (MDT)

Blood lord does look like a better candidate, I guess basically the Dragoon needs a full revamp. I think the dragon knight should just get his simple and martial weapons from the start, but Dragon slayer and Dragoon has more benefits as you said before. For the superiority die, I actually think it might be cool to expand on the weapon maneuvers and use the Superior die on them, but maybe battlemaster would be more fun and easier to work with. Moonlight should be reamed as well, maybe Consecration is a good one? and at level 18 for dragoon's they can a powerful dragon ability (sorry not magical, I forgot about this) used once per long rest. I wonder how we can balance it out between the paladin though. Need to think about this. Thank you. Technique (talk) 8:39, 26 May 2016 (MDT)

allowing any pet class to have it's companion attack as a bonus action is OP no other class does this. As far as the subcalsses go they feel disjointed and have no sense of purpose. I would make a caster type, a slayer type, and more of a tag team type that focuses on fighting FROM the dragon. The dragoon seems to be the one he wanted the others were hastily made to provide options. Taking the battlemaster's entire purpose and giving it a dragon as a sidekick is way OP. As you have said the dragon is essentially another PC giving the knight too many abilities AND the dragon would make every other player useless.--Suppoko (talk) 11:41, 26 May 2016 (MDT)

The DRAGON is supposed to be the star of this show and I feel it's very underpowered with sub-par stats, crap AC and meh abilities. When you first "obtain" the dragon it can't even be used in combat since it will likely die. What kind of dragon can't wear armor and use magical devices? All the "balance" edits need to go. I would put up a ranger and his dire wolf against this dragon knight and drgon any day, especially since the ranger can go to the woods and get a new companion if his dies.

First please sign your posts. On this suggestion I hope the current changes solves some problems. I do think the dragon hit dice should be 1d10 and seems to work well with 13+Dex+bonus AC as of now. There was never an issue about losing your Dragon. You can talk to your DM if you were to resurrect your dragon through a quest or spell.Technique (talk) 15:40, 24 May 2016 (MDT)

i'm not going to bother editing the actual page since it seems you undo any edits you don't like, i'll instead list them here. the metallic dragons breath weapons have no element type and with the exception of sleep and paralyze are considerably weaker than direct damage. The natural AC bonus is weak compared to an actual dragon of that given size (as well as stat array is completely poor, the dragon is a companion not a familiar) how is FLYING a major trait for a dragon? That's pretty much it's thing, fly around and breathe on people. also, 20ft??? come on now. Dragonic fortitude is.......odd, the super hero jump makes little sense unless you're in an anime film.--Suppoko (talk) 08:23, 26 May 2016 (MDT)

I mean Tubal has said that he based on this class from Final Fantasy so I honestly don't know what your expecting. Also I am not sure what you mean been by unediting posts I don't like. I stated that people with random IPs will have their edits undone automatically. I kept Draykan edit since, hey why does the DK have to an ability that is outclassed by a monk who can start using a similar ability at earlier levels? I think you overlook the fact that the dragons can breathe different types from the minor traits. 20ft is actually pretty bad, I will go ahead and fix that. The AC bonus is quite enough. I mean for the love of god you have basically another character with 1d8, you have the highest hitpool of any class from the game (18 points total) and theres an ability to allow you to share damage between the two. I I already suggested 1d10 health for the dragon and I even think that is OP. The AC makes sense, I am sure a dragon raised by dragons would be much stronger than being raised by a human, elf, etc. Flying is a major trait, because hey, adds a lot of benefit to the game if you having a flying companion from the start. Technique (talk) 8:39, 26 May 2016 (PST)

I mean that just because they didn't sign in or have an account does not mean their edit is not without merit, this is a community driven space and everyone helps and what makes sense in FF might not make any in D&D, certain allowances and changes have to occur. Basically you're allowing someone to not only reduce falling damage, you're giving them the ability to take that damage and create an AOE of damage. Also, it allows a 10' trip attack regardless of size. I have no issue with the d8 since that is in line with other creatures, splitting damage with the dragon is OP as hell and should be removed or at least moved to an archetype. The additional breath type is a major trait, I brought it up because 4d10 damage compared to being pushed away? That's horrible, plus being immune to pushing, slow, weaken? they should have a element type if for no other reason without it you're telling me a Gold dragon is able to be damaged by fire. --Suppoko (talk) 10:35, 26 May 2016 (MDT)

I understand the rules and how here is free to copy off of, but would you like it if someone was like "oh hey this class feels bad lol let me some OP stuff in without explaining why". Creating an account doesn't take long and you can discuss about your suggestions. Like this is totally fine, people can get feedback without changing the page to their liking and explain their thoughts. For the FF thing I know, its kinda why I my made own version so it feels less ridiculous and weird. Also oh yea, I completely forgot about the fact that the enemies can take damage and go prone from the fall. Maybe to start some fixes, only creatures size Large or medium and smaller must take checks and will fall if failed. Blood lord is becoming more to be a tanky archtype so we can move the hitpool to that. Gold dragons are actually are still immune to fire, I guess that hasn't been well detailed enough, they can't do fire damage though at the start. Maybe the purpose was good dragons don't lethal damage (besides platinum) and evil dragons can. Maybe we should give everyone damaging types so that most good dragons aren't left out. Thank you for your help and feedback. adds a lot of benefit to the game if you having a flying companion from the start. Technique (talk) 10:53, 26 May 2016 (PST)

Use the MM breath weapons for dragons Brass-fire, bronze-lightning, copper-acid. In the MM you can see the "special" dragon breath spelled out like the OP had it here but spelled out a bit better IF you wanted to add them back in as a secondary option not as a only option.--Suppoko (talk) 07:11, 28 May 2016 (MDT)

I kept the special breaths on the page, which should negate the need for that. If someone wants an additional, special breath, they're there. Or, if you meant I misattributed them, terribly sorry, I was doing it at like 2 in the morning. --Draykan (talk) 07:25, 28 May 2016 (MDT)

I fixed what I was talking about --Suppoko (talk) 07:32, 28 May 2016 (MDT)

Hah, you ninja'd me, I was just going in to fix it.

I have a couple of suggestions: - since the Dragon can learn spells at level 5 and every other level since, it would make a nice package if the Knight could learn a canntrip first at level 7 and every time the dragon learns a spell. Both should be limited to a "Cha Mod" times per long rest (canntrips would be considered attacks from the Knight, meaning you could still use your Lord's Direction bonus action and the extra attack. - the Channel Dragon's Might trait for the Dragoon might be better as a Bonus Action (conceptually, thematically, technically and under an interpretative stand-point) Same goes for Dragon Fury from the Dragon Slayer. Maybe with the same cooldown of the breath attack - Dragon Slayer (based on the inspiration material) should be an "Arcane" archetipe, gaining heavy armor proficiency but keeping only 1 weapon proficiency and obtaining a Paladin-like spellcasting growth. -- Knulpich 20:00 5 June 2016 (CEST)

Is it possible to make a mention of the Dragon dying if the Knight dies? I feel like that would quell some of the arguments about the 'second PC' thing. Also, it COULD be added that the Dragon falls unconscious if the knight does (by falling to 0hp) but the knight would stay up if the dragon does. They basically share a mental link, with the Knight having more power than the dragon in many cases, so this would be a small, but useful, little fix for balancing purposes. THEgassner (talk) 21:12, 7 June 2016 (MDT)

Something I didn't think about until just now; speaking of the mental link, we could have it so that Compulsion, Suggestion, and spells of the like, as well as spells that affect the Knight with things that the Dragon is not immune to (Sleep et.al.) should only have one save for the pair when the Knight is effected, but the Dragon can fail a save on its own. If the dragon is immune to something (Say sleep) the Knight would still be effected but the Dragon would not. Again, it ties the two together far more. Could have this disappear with a Major trait so you can eradicate one biteback at a cost. Also, not related to saves, might add a climb speed as a minor or major trait. THEgassner (talk) 21:26, 7 June 2016 (MDT)

Hello, is is possible to expand the Dragoon Art of War to include other types of weapons, like the one we are already proficient in, or perhaps make the criteria not so specific? like changing the Crush Dance to instead of swords or hammers to be one-handed,excluding axes. just a suggestion.

One suggestion I have as far as balance goes, instead of giving the dragon an attack as a bonus action, let it assist damage on the knight's attacks as a bonus action. Ex. a small dragon adds a d6 to the damage, or a d8 for a medium, etc. This could be of the dragon's element, or add the element as a minor trait. Then when the dragon knight reaches lvl 5 and gets the extra attack, treat it like a ranger, but it cannot add the bonus to attacks if it does so. Expardon

Images

Last year I requested that the images include attribution to the artist and a link to their original image (which would also require finding a version of the image hosted with respect to copyright). This still hasn't been done, so I will be removing them at some point this week. Marasmusine (talk) 10:58, 20 July 2016 (MDT)

Request

I've spent some time trying to fix this class to make it somewhat playable. I'm going to be using it in an upcoming game to see how it actually works. Since I don't want to edit this page (because it isn't mine), I was wondering if the creator minded if I threw up my revised Dragon Knight on the wiki? --Dorlon (talk) 03:54, 9 April 2017 (UTC)