Talk:Dracon (5e Race)

Nice Job

Looks at least as good as the dracons I had, which are a distinct race. -- Aristocles (talk) 21:38, 7 April 2016 (MDT)

Thank you. I thought of it while looking at other races and wanted to see if I could make it. I'm glad someone thought it was good. Agrith (talk)

I feel that limiting them to leather alone is a but much, perhaps light armor instead?

I understand where you are getting at, however, leather with the scales means a base AC of 16, not including Dex modifier. Plus, of light armor, which is the most comfortable, thick, padded clothing, form fitting hard leather, or hard leather with a number of heavy metal studs. I also wanted to add a negative effect due to the dracons having so many benefits. Agrith (talk) 08:24, 24 May 2016 (MDT)

I see what you mean, but Leather armor gives neg's to stealth, and the racial type itself neg's Dex. So it makes Dex based Dracon, which would be the idea for the scales, be taking negs.

Padded Armor gives disadvantage to stealth, not leather or studded leather. So it should be fine. Agrith (talk) 14:53, 25 May 2016 (MDT)

Any Comments?

It has come to my attention that this race mat be a little powerful (Especially the True Dracon). I am going to imclude my thoughts on the race as well:

Of the race in general, the keen senses and claws are the most questionable. Keen Senses gives Blindsight out the 5 ft per level, which at lower level make the blindsight a last resort 'I can't see' thing, but at high levels makes it possible to locate something in complete darkness before you can see it. Maybe a bit overpowered. Claws grants a 1d6 weapon at can use dual wielding and Dex, perhaps 1d4 would be better.

Thw Winged Dracons get free, unlimited flight. That is VERY powerful, but in turn, are vulnerable to one of the most common danamge types, bludgeoning. Is that balanced?

Tailed Dracons have a 1d8 weapon that attacks behind them (120 degree arc is not 5e, probably needs changed, perhaps to 'enemies able to attack your back?') that can also knock enemies prone. This attack can be use as a reaction to a missed attack on their backs. Their penalty is that they have -2 to Dex saving throws. Probably should nerf to 1d6 and specify single target. Maybe make Strength save easier.

Scaled Dracons basically get a permanet +5 AC, but at the cost of being unable to be proficent with any armor expect leather and shields. In best case scenario (Dex of 17, Con of 19 and a Wis of 18), a Scaled Dragon that is (1) wearing leather armor and a shield, (2) a barbarian with a shield, (3) a monk with no armor, or (4) wearing plate armor amd a shield would have an AC of 21, 24, 22, and 25 respectively. Though these are best case scenarios, that is big (and even with no armor and a Dex of 3, they have AC 11). That may be OP big, so may nerf to +3.

Breath Dracons are essentially Dragonborn with claws, blindsight, different ability score adjustments, and the need to carry around twice as much food and water (1 day worth of rations is one day for a Medium creature and waterskins carry 2 days worth of water for Medium creatures, Breath Dracons would need two of the raiton (which weigh 4 lbs. each) and one whole watershin (5 lbs.) for one day.) I don't know if this is overpowered or not.

Finally the biggest problem: the True Dracon. The True Dracon not only has the features available to all Dracon, but also thw wings, tail, scales, and breath abilitied from the other subraces. They also have a set of fangs that allow a 1d6 damaging Bite attack that can only be used while grappling. True Dracons also get the negative features from the other subraces (vulnarable to bludgeoning damage, -2 to Dex saving throws, can only be proficient with leather armor and shields, and requires twice as much food and water per day as other creature its size). This gives it many powerful features, but also multiple harmful one. Still, it is probably overpowered and most likely needs either massive nerf or just outright removed.

Kydo Reviews

Fluff

Excellent. At first blush, my gut instinct is "Oh, another half dragon stand-in". Upon reading it though, time has been given to making this race compatible with dragonborn and dragons. Surprisingly well thought out. I am especially a fan of the unique naming tradition.

Keen Senses

Ha! No! True sight lets you see people even on the ethereal plane. There is no physical sense which would justify that. Change that to racial proficiency with perception. That's the standard "Keen Senses" trait. You might also consider just removing it outright to free up some power for the subrace traits. No dragon-type creatures have a keen senses trait, so it really makes no sense being here. They're lizards, not dogs!

Claws

To free up some more power for your subraces, drop the die damage, and just change their unarmed strike damage type. That keeps the trait with mechanical value, but turns it into a bit of a Ribbon, and also gives dracon monks something to smile about.

Subrace Ability Score Penalties

Just a fair warning, ability score penalties are generally considered to be a very unfair way of buying power space in a race. The net effect of an ability score penalty is not a redistribution of power, because it hinges on players ignoring the penalties and building against type. Players do not do this. Instead, players just choose not to build for their racial weaknesses, and instead build for their racial strengths. Because players can build around an ability score penalty, it never actually comes into play, so the power that was "bought" to rebalance it becomes excess power added to an otherwise balanced character. This is why we wound up with those old stereotypes about dwarves and elves only choosing a few classes; those were the only builds that made sense for those races, because those builds generated excess power by negating their own racial penalties. Counterbalances only work if they actually see play.

My recommendation: Remove the penalties. Add a counterbalancing trait to the base race that can not be easily circumvented by character build.

Flying Subrace

Pretty much everyone agrees that 50ft of flying speed is insanely overpowered. The only reason it was (arguably) valid with the Aarakocra, is because they had very little else going for them. The only class their ASIs benefitted negated the value of their claw trait, as did most weapons. Basically: all of their power was in their fly speed, and everything else was very carefully designed to work around the monk class to maintain balance. Other flying races which have been released since the Aarakocra do not have fly speeds exceeding 30ft. This race has no such elaborate counterbalancing to justify such a high flying speed, and in fact has many other very good traits. I would recommend dropping it to 30ft.

About Vulnerabilities

See, the thing about damage weaknesses, is that they don't actually do anything as a counterbalance. They don't actually reduce a character's power output, so much as they just increase a character's chances of spontaneously dying. Like AS penalties, they don't actually come into play, but in this case, it's because they can't. They apply pretty much directly to the end of play. Simply by not dying, this counterbalance is completely negated, and again whatever power was bought by it becomes excess for as long as the character lives. Now, this one does have narrative justification, and because they can fly they are more likely to be hit by piercing damage than bludgeoning damage, so you can keep it if you want, but keep in mind that it does not work as a counterbalance for positive traits.

Tailed Subrace

You gave them a very good natural weapon. The counterbalance is a save penalty to the most common save type. This has the same effect as a vulnerability, it isn't an effective counterbalance because it just randomly kills the character. Worse, this one can easily be built around by choosing a class which has a dex save proficiency.

Scaled Subrace

A flat AC+3 is crazy. In leather armor, with a shield, and +5 DEX makes 21AC. That's better than plate mail with a shield. Even more scary, if I were a UAC optimized barbarian scaled dracon, with +5 DEX and CON, and a shield, that would bring me to 25AC at first level. That's huge. At 21AC, most characters are mostly untouchable until they get to second tier. This character would be mostly untouchable until third tier. More importantly, a high AC is actually a bad thing. Hitting less is boring on both sides of the screen, and misses just stall play. Allowing a player to potentially bust out of the intended bounded accuracy limits like that runs against the grain of 5e's monster design. My recommendation is to drop it to +1, and have it only apply if they are not wearing armor. Alternatively, you could make it a variant of dwarven resilience, giving a bonus of +1hp per character level.

Breath weapon subrace

This makes you into a mechanically indistinct dragonborn duplicate. My main problem is the ravenous trait. Why do they need to eat and drink so much? Dragonborn don't need to. There's no fluff justification for it, which implies that it was intended as some sort of counterbalance. (That interpretation also seems to fit the design pattern I've seen thus far.) That's also not an effective counterbalance. Here's why:

• Food is cheap. Skimming coppers and silvers off a PC's treasure horde does little to disempower them.
• Unlike previous editions, money doesn't translate to character power much in 5e, mainly because there is no magic item economy and an extremely limited mundane weapon market.
• Not eating enough is not the same as not eating at all. DMs are then forced to expand upon the physical needs rules to figure out what happens if they can't find enough food.
• That will never happen though because, as already mentioned, food is cheap, so their hunger and thirst will never come into play.
• The vast majority of players and DMs simply do not consider food or water at all. That means that, for the vast majority of players, this trait doesn't even exist.

Now, that isn't to say it is worthless. It makes an excellent ribbon if it's justified, and is pretty much mandatory for large size races, but otherwise it's basically fluff.

True Dracon

All of the other subrace traits, plus a third natural weapon! And this one deals 1d6! So, choosing this subrace, you can build a nigh-indestructible flying murder-monster who will spontaneously die if he gets hit a few times with the wrong types of attacks. If you take your first level in barbarian and all the rest in sorcerer, you can make a god by level 5. Woo. Clearly this is well balanced. :/ Maybe if all of the other subraces were rebuilt to have proper counterbalances, it might work, but even then this subrace would crank out option power.

Final Thoughts

This is tangibly overpowered in every regard. The design revolves entirely around the combat pillar, with only a vague nod to exploration and complete neglect of socialization. Its ribbons exist only by accident as poor attempts at counterbalancing some unusually strong traits. The idea is really cool, and the race sounds fun to roleplay as, but the mechasnics are a bit of a belly-flop and pretty much need a complete rewrite. --Kydo (talk) 11:06, 4 February 2017 (MST)

Hmm. I see what you mean. I'll get to it! But a few things I want to clear up:

Keen Senses provided Blindsight. I don't think I was really thinking with the Perception, but is blindsight at 5ft per level overpowered.

I did play around with the unarmed strike type change. Should I mention Light or Finesse? Probably not, I'm guessing.

The bludgeoning vulnerability did not change the power, but it forces the character to keep away from the main fighting or fly above the fighting.

Ravenous was to try and prevent Breath Dracons from just being more powerful dragonborn. I'll find someway to change it.

Perhaps I could change True to somethings else and give it weaker variants of the other abilities. But they have to be subtantially nerfed. Hmm...

Agrith (talk) 11:42, 4 February 2017 (MST)

Massive edit done. How is it now? Agrith (talk) 13:02, 4 February 2017 (MST)

Not Sure where to actually put this...

Ok, I am definitely with Kydo and the review they presented. If I may, if you still really want a modular draconic race I made a thing that my usual playgroup enjoys. I'm more than certain this is only one of thousands of "dragonborn fixes". I'm just glad I wasn't the only one who was unnerved to see 4e style dragonborn vs 3.5 style. The doc is written up to be used by us, but I have deliberately enabled comments so things can be hashed out there if need be. The changes in the Document provide a sizable power increase to the dragonborn race as a whole, but allowed it to feel as mechanically diverse as dragonlances Draconians. However, if a more conservative approach is desired, the user can easily limit the number of options the PC may choose. Overall, we wanted to do a dragonborn-centric game and wanted to feel like their could be some differences between dragon types. Feel free to hijack the parts and pieces needed for the Dracon race. I really hope this helps and I'm not just shoveling around uncooked tripe.--Gr7mm Bobb (talk) 14:41, 4 February 2017 (MST)

The idea's great and I did toy around with it, but I mainly chose the subraces because I could give each some more fluff that turns them into distinct choices, instead of one people with lots of variation (but in your case, your way is good. Dragonborn are their own people, but don't have many different types (excluding dragon ancestry), therefore you buffed them and gave them choices instead of different kinds of the same race). Agrith (talk) 17:52, 4 February 2017 (MST)

Why do people feel Dragonborn are underpowered? They're the only truly combat-centric race in the core rules! Mechanically, they balance out quite well! I would have figured people to be quite happy with their design! I was more disgruntled by their inclusion as a core race at all, but that was just me being a grouchy old grognard. --Kydo (talk) 06:43, 5 February 2017 (MST)

Dragonborn aren't underpowered, but it sometimes seems that way. Thus people create buffs. Sometimes its their perception of the race, or sometimes its just the DM (no offense, Gr7mm). Agrith (talk) 07:56, 5 February 2017 (MST)

Additions/Changes

This section is made for any additions or changes a reader decides the class needs. Let me know what they are and I will get back to you on my decision (with and explaination as to why I made that decision). Agrith (talk) 17:12, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Marasmusine, I appreciate all the changes, I didn't realize some of them were that ...messy. But I did want to discuss somethings. First, I want to put back the thing about specially tailored clothing, mostly because it help DMs with those people who just throw on some leather armor they find on some bandit then start flying around despite them pinning their wings. Also, perhaps winged dracons can fly with medium armor if they are proficient or with some penalty. I picture them as stronger flyers than near draconc and at the moment, they are just a little faster. Let me know what you think! Agrith (talk) 17:12, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Hello Mr. Anonymous User! I see the reasoning behind your edit, but the Scaled Dracon already states that the bonus is reduced to 1 when you lose half your hit points until you regain all lost hit points (fully healed). A long rest does that already, but this allows healing potions and other healing abilities to help you. Agrith (talk) 16:37, 12 July 2017 (MDT)

Mr IP. That kind of ability increase is to much, far too much! Strength, Constitution, or Charisma get plus two, and what does "the other two mean?" And then the subrace adds Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution depending on which you pick. If you mean the "other two" as the other ability score, then there will not necessarily leave two left and that is two big a bonus anyway. Agrith (talk) 10:27, 14 August 2017 (MDT)

Thanks, ConcealedLight! I made some edits, how do they look? Agrith (talk) 10:22, 31 January 2018 (MST)

Better, it reads clearer and ASI's are more interesting. Try running each subrace through the Musicus Meter (5e Guideline) and you'll notice a few things such as some off wordings and which subraces have the most power. For me, the answer is clear even without the meter but I'd like to see you edit this yourself since you seem largely invested in this page and seem to respond well to curation. ConcealedLight (talk) 17:02, 31 January 2018 (MST)

Ran it through the Musicus Meter (5e Guideline), as you suggested, and here's my ratings (might be misdone).

Base Dracon: 3 (2 from ASI, 0.5 from Darkvison, 0.5 from Damage resistance. 0 from Dragon creature type, 0 from draconic ancestry, and 0 from claws)

Winged Dracon: 6 (3 base + 1 from ASI, 2 from wings (3 from 30ft flight with wings, -1 from medium and heavy armor restriction))

Tailed Dracon: 6.5 (3 base + 1 from ASI, 0.5 from Imtimidation proficency, 2 from tail (1 from 1d6 natural weapon, 1 from reaction attack. I was uncertain here and decided that the reaction attack was worth 1, what do you think?))

Scaled Dracon: 6-6.5 (3 base + 1 from ASI, 0.5 from the situational advantage in Perception, 0.5-1 from Natural AC (Again, uncertain))

Breath Dracon: 5.5 (3 base+ 1 from ASI, 1 from breath weapon, 0.5 from double breath (due to lack of usefulness))

Near Dracon: 8.5 (3 base+ 1 from ASI, 1 from wings (2 from 20 ft flight, -1 from medium and heavy armor restriction, 0 from time limit/cooldown), 0.5 from 1d4 natural weapon, 1 from reaction attack, 0.5 from Natural AC, 1 from breath weapon, 0.5 from 1d4 natural weapon, -0.5 from Charisma disadvantage (some of these are weaker version, or are situational, but, with the breath weapon being an exception, they already have scores of 0.5, so...)

I knew the Near Dracon were a little strong, but wow. And I'm pretty sure I was biased and/or generous... Either way, I'm not sure what to do with the near dracon. I like the idea, but am not sure how to make it fit better. I suppose it might score an 8 if the breath weapon is weak enough (if it isn't already), but still... Agrith (talk) 00:11, 1 February 2018 (MST)

Yup, that's all pretty accurate. Though I think you've undervalued the Tailed Dracon.

Tailed:

Base: 3

ASI: 1.5 - a +3 ASI on any one stat is worth an addition 1.5 instead of the normal 1.

Tailed: 2 - It's a 1d6 natural weapon that can be done as a reaction and forces a status effect without limit. I'd probs rate it a bit higher but its higher enough.

Intimidating Form: 0.5

I'd probs change Tail to a bonus action. It forces a saving throw. Your Strength mod in damage on a success, on a fail no damage but are knocked prone. You can only do it if make an attack action first. That works out to 1.5. For a total of 6.5, which works.

The Breath weapon of the Breath dracon does more damage than the Dragonborn breath weapon, which is already pretty good so should probs bring it back down. Through you could remove the expanded lungs trait for something like the ability to continuously fire the breath weapon, maybe for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution modifier be a neat something for a single trait subrace.

In regards to the near dracon, you could make the following changes.

Wings:Can fly for 30 feet but then they fall. So it's like a booster through the air. Paired with the armour restrictions it's a near low power ability which is what all of their traits are going to need to be to fit them in. Remove the other restrictions.

Tail: Only bonus and prone.

Scales: 11 plus Dexterity modifier = AC

Breath Weapon: Long rest recharge only, 1d6 less, and without the continuous breath if you decide to include that.

The others you can keep, but write out the full trait with the restrictions the near dracon has instead of just the restrictions. --ConcealedLight (talk) 05:12, 1 February 2018 (MST)

The tailed dracon no longer has the ability to knock others prone... and the reaction is to a miss... but you are probably right.

I like the idea for the near dracon... but again, about the tailed dracon Agrith (talk) 06:09, 1 February 2018 (MST)

Ah of course. It seems I'd forgotten I was looking at an older page revision. ConcealedLight (talk) 06:52, 1 February 2018 (MST)

That should be better. I decide to leave the tailed dracon as they were, since they scored about a 7 (I think). I'm content with that. Agrith (talk) 10:55, 1 February 2018 (MST)

Ideas

Alright. Idea time. I have been thinking about adding in dracons having a growth spurt when they are about 801 years old. They would gain 2-24 inches in height and 20-240 pounds in weight, as well as be Large in size. Comments? Agrith (talk) 08:35, 17 August 2017 (MDT)

Deletion

Um, no offense Geodude, but the race is in use in the Caves of Chaos game that is still going on the wiki. Also, the recent changes seem to be the same, indicating that they were the same person. They are also consistantly made on the Winged Dracon's flight ability because IP would like them to be able to fly in heavy armor. The lack of thos ability was for balance. Agrith (talk) 16:58, 20 November 2017 (MST)

My bad; I didn't notice. I'll remove the deletion proposal. — Geodude671 (talk | contribs | email)‎ . . 17:03, 20 November 2017 (MST)

Musicus Rating

Musicus Meter Score: 5.5-6

This race has a score of 5.5-6 according to the Musicus Meter race guidelines. With this metric, first-party races' scores range from 4.5 to 8. This is a guideline, not a rule, and it's important to use your own judgment alongside this scoring.

This scoring may be the groundwork for a focused {{needsbalance}} usage. A contributor to this page may request a detailed breakdown of this page's balance. Without this information, {{needsbalance}} may then be removed. This meter cannot be the sole basis for a needsbalance template, but may be included as an accessory to a wider discussion of a race's balance.

This template should only be placed on a race's talk page. If this template is not placed on the talk page, please move it.

ConcealedLight (talk) 04:02, 2 February 2018 (MST)

Unsocial

Because Unsocial affects all Charisma checks, it also affects Intimidation checks. SirSprinkles (talk) 15:08, 24 March 2018 (MDT)

And this question has gotten me thinking that I should add more to the society section on the different subrace interactions. Basically, because they are the rarest dracons, aside from the mythic perfect dracon, and they are very similar, yet very different to every other dracon, they are outcasts and have little interacts with others. So they have difficultly with all social interacts, even trying to be intimidating. But I will edit the society section. Thanks! Agrith (talk) 21:14, 24 March 2018 (MDT)

Images

Okay, I wanted to ask a question. Is it okay to use images from older D&D versions to give an idea what dracons look like? I've found a few that I like, but I'm not sure if it is okay. Agrith (talk) 12:55, 2 September 2018 (MDT)

Yes you are perfectly fine to use images you find of what the race looks like, but the most important thing when using most images(bar those you created or those that are public domain) is to provide a link to the source and/or proper attribution to the creator of the image. For reference, an excellent example of a page that provides both is the Alraune (5e Race).--Blobby383b (talk) 13:57, 2 September 2018 (MDT)