Talk:Darkfire Guild Thief (3.5e Prestige Class)

Awaiting Critiques

Looking forward to everyones input on this one. --Calidore Chase 07:49, 14 December 2006 (MST)

I see a couple things wrong with it... First off, I see it as overpowered (not trying to be rude, but honest). All these abilities are to good and to often. As a warning, I hate it when people are rude to my inventions, and I am doing just that to yours. I would hate it is someone did this to my PrC, but I feel that it needs to be done... Also, their are many worse PrC's on D&D Wiki, I am just trying to make this once get a 8-10 on balance. I hope you understand. Anyway, my take on it:

1. First off, the requirements are to low to get into this class... Level 3 is too low in my opinion for such a good class. If you want them low, I would recommend level 5.
2. Initiate basically gives the adventurer 5000gp for free, in the form of a very good weapon. I would recommend that the user gets a new equipment item that is much worse, such as the Dagger of Lesser Falling Ash.
3. Sneak Attack is normal, but some say this ability is overpowered in and of itself... I would recommend sneak attack every 3 levels instead of 2.
4. Ash Shield can be used an infinite amount of times per day, this is like getting a magical shield without the disadvantages of a shield. This ability is like getting 1000gp for free. I would recommend only allowing this 2 times per day, but make the creation only take a standard action.
5. Ash Net, good but how many times per day, Infinite? Does it work just like a normal net to escape from, etc? I would recommend you to re-word this, and make it like my suggested version of Ash Shield.
6. Mark Giver is too good, DR 1 or so would be more acceptable, even to remove this ability altogether might make it better...
7. Ash Cloud, how long does it take to do? Also, this ability is okay, if only a little overpowered. I would recommend a 10% concealment.
8. Rogue Special Ability To make this more balanced I might just cut this out altogether as well...
9. Minion of Acerbus is too good. Also, when resurrected, can the player act as the demon? Exactly what CR will the demon be? I would recommend either getting rid of the SR advantage, or getting rid of the resurrection advantage, or this ability altogether and adding either Rogue Special Ability or Mark Giver back in.
10. Soul Sacrifice not bad... However, I would recommend making the user choose either 3 spells that he can cast at will, and get rid of the "Permanent Ability".. The reason to get rid of the permanent ability is because when someone uses Dispel Magic this class feature becomes worthless.

Finnally, I am not really sure how this version would be, it might be underpowered... Anyway, I don't mean to be rude and make you hate all this. I really like this class, and I want it to get a 8-10 on balance. This is in nowhere close to the worst PrC on D&D Wiki, don't take this offensively please take it constructively. I hope you understand. --Green Dragon 16:26, 14 December 2006 (MST)

No offense taken. I actually had lost all my original notes on this PrC and had to try to remember them on the fly. But I will try to answer each of your points.

1. As this class is primarily for baddies, I did want a low level entry. The first level of this PrC should be at the 4th character level. I mapped out most of the abilities based on this entry level. (see the response on the rogue special ability.)
2. While I cannot argue that the PrC does appear to just give cash out to the individual, it should be noted that as a member of the guild the Darkfire Guild Thief is prohibited from selling the dagger (not sure who would buy the evil looking thing anyways). And it is part of the flavor of the class... I believe that making the dagger a +2 magic item is the lowest I can go and still keep the extra abilities (+1 for the +1, and +1 for the fire damage, scarring, and ash trail)
3. Sneak Attack was discussed as possibly being overpowered, but since it was modeled exactly on the rogue ability - even so far as to be getting the ability at the equivilent rogue levels I was ok with this. Moving it to every three levels is a possibility if after all my responses we still have dissent as to the power level.
4. Ash Shield - getting a magic shield at 5th level isn't to unusual and since it is not a persistent item that can be sold I put it down to unlimited times per day.
5. Ash Net - It does act exactly like a regular net except for the additional fire damage to struggling targets. I'll reword it to better reflect this. note - may need to update the net entry in the SRD.
6. Mark-Giver - 2 points of damage reduction at 9th level isn't going to help against most monsters or adventurers and is more of a flavor thing. The ability to speak vile is more problematic and I need to research in the Book of Vile Darkness to be sure I didn't throw something overpowered in right there.
7. Ash Cloud - I'll add in the activation time (standard action).reducing to 10% concealment doesn't bother me at all. 20% was just kind of a standard I had been using.
8. Rogue Special Ability - I tried to time this so that those who started as rogues would get this ability exactly when they normally would have had they stayed a rogue. Mainly to make keep the rogue flavor going
9. Minion of Acerbus - Sorry, the resurrection ability is purely a flavor thing. I'll add into the description that when a Minion of Acerbus is resurrected in this manner they are no longer a player character and are effectively removed from the game. Of course, since this PrC is primarily intended for bad guys, the DM could make a recurring enemy who has been resurrected as a devil. So for all intents and purposes, the only ability gained here is the spell resistance.
10. Soul Sacrifice - The permanency vs dispel thing is not a problem - I will add a note that if dispelled the ability returns 2d4 rounds after being dispelled. Since this is not a true 'spell' but is actually a sort of deity granted power I don't think that will be a problem.

End Note: Thank you for the criticism it definitely helped add to the viability of the class and I look forward to your counterpoints to my responses. Hope my arguments make sense, it's very late. And now I'm off to bed, any noted changes will be done tomorrow. --Calidore Chase 17:18, 14 December 2006 (MST)

To begin...

1. Low level entry is okay, it will not overpower it much. I now say keep it at 4.
2. I have two options for this:
   1. I still think it is good to get a free +2 dagger at 4th level... I still say make a weaker version than upgrade it to the better version at the 3rd PrC level (PrC Levels:1st level - Bad Dagger, 3rd level - okay dagger, 5th level - good dagger, 8th level - can make daggers).
   2. Or, it might be good to make it so the dagger is connected to the individual. So, if the individual dies the dagger disappears, if anyone but the individual tries to use the dagger it becomes a normal dagger to them. This method might increase the flavor as well, but require extensive re-wording of Initiate.
3. I still say every third, some of these abilities make this PrC still worth it to take even with decreased sneak attack. Your thoughts?
4. Hm... Getting it is not that big of a deal, I just think the thought of constantly able to produce this shield at will is. Keep it if you want, but it might be better to scap this idea and make a shield version of the Dagger of Falling Ash and have the character receive this just like they received the dagger... Your thoughts?
5. I wait for the re-wording... Then I will critique this ability again (If it needs it).
6. If the DR is not going to help, then just get rid of it. If anyone sees that this PrC also gets DR (and DR leads to more DR through feats) they are going to think of it as a worse PrC. Just get rid of the DR and keep the extra language, with a possible penalty of not getting 2 skill points that level. The reason for this would be that the race might not support this language, and getting a language the race does not support, even though it it is a special ability, is good. Possibly make it only 1 skill point they do not get.
7. Should make it better with the 10%.
8. We will see how the balance looks after all this is done, then decide... However, I am still leaning towards removal.
9. I don't know if this is to much SR... If it is not, it is okay, if it is lower it a bit (12-15).
10. 2d4 rounds seems reasonable... That or 2d6... Your thoughts?
11. This needs to be added to Category:Bad Guy.
12. This needs to be added to DnD Prestige Classes.

Once again, I hope this helps, and not in a negative way. --Green Dragon 18:54, 14 December 2006 (MST)

Quick note on Damage Reduction. It does not stack with other forms of damage reduction, you just get to use whichever one is best for the situation. So the DR is still useful, just not over powered. --Calidore Chase 23:08, 14 December 2006 (MST)

I did not know that. Since that is the case, keeping it should be okay. --Green Dragon 23:38, 14 December 2006 (MST)

Added to Bad Guy Category, added dispel effects on Soul Sacrifice Abilities, reduced concealment to 10%, added devil status note. --Calidore Chase 00:18, 15 December 2006 (MST)

1. The ever problematic dagger.... I like the idea of the connected daggers disappearing on their owners death and will add that in. It will mean that only non-soul connected daggers are treasure.
2. Will alter the Sneak Attack Ability to every third level and see how that looks.
3. Ash Shield - I think the full round action for the creation of this item coupled with the inability to let it go without it dissolving into ash really removes it's power. Additionally, as the character goes up in level they will be looking for more powerful protective items and this shield will likely be obsolete and only used in emergencies.
4. Ash Net - will add the note to refer to the Net's SRD entry, there is alot more information in the PHB concerning the net that needs to be added to the Net's SRD entry.

--Calidore Chase 00:26, 15 December 2006 (MST)

Changed sneak attack to every third level starting at first, moved initiate to 2nd level, cleaned up some of the entries.. --Calidore Chase 03:19, 15 December 2006 (MST)

I have MoI'ed Sledged, Xenophon, and Dmilewski for more imput, however it is aleady looking much better. --Green Dragon 02:38, 16 December 2006 (MST)

I've had the privilege of going over this and working with Calidore offline. He was able to explain himself pretty well but a few things didn't sit well with me but I couldn't quite tell what. I've been watching the progress on this and the back and forth has been great. I feel this PrC is to its full maturity or at least damn close. Calidore even gets bonus points for giving reasons for getting the abilities the character does. Not just, *POOF* I now have this special ability that I have because I am such-and-such class. --Xenophon 10:20, 16 December 2006 (MST)

Some random notes:

1. Minion of Acerbus should raise a devil of a certain HD, not CR. This is more in line with the WotC standards.
2. Concentration really should be a class skill since it requires a Concen check to summon the dagger.
3. What is a demon dagger of falling ash?
4. There are many ways the final ability can be drastically broken! Ever consider a 12th level fighter, or rogue, or ranger, or... (lists all classes)... that has a permanent true strike spell? This isn't the only bad usage. Just think about it for a second...

--EldritchNumen 20:51, 16 December 2006 (MST)

Wow, I did not even think of how one could abuse this... Its horrific... Anyway, I would recommend making the choices of spells that can be put on the person limited by the choices of permanency. This should make that ability more balanced. --Green Dragon 00:12, 17 December 2006 (MST)

Agreed, I will make some changes in that regard.I thought I had put concentration in the class skills list, nice catch. The Demon and Master Demon versions of the dagger have yet to be posted - working on some issues with them. Not worried about the raising as a demon thing - that is purely a tool of the DM. --Calidore Chase 04:59, 17 December 2006 (MST)

Cleaned Up

So how's it look now? --Calidore Chase 11:10, 17 December 2006 (MST)

A couple things: Every time they get a new dagger they get a different ability. For example, the first time they get a dagger that get fire resistance 5, next time 2 DR, and finally SR 18. I would say make all these abilities the same. If you like DR make them all grant a little DR (this would also be the most realistic of the choices - The scars make their skin harder, granting DR), if you like fire resistance make them all give fire resistance, etc. I don't really like that each one gives a new ability... Also, to balance this out more it might be good to make the Darkfire Guild Thief do a Profession(?) (Weapon Drill) check to see if they can summon the shield or the net. This should make it more balanced, but more input would be nice... --Green Dragon 11:26, 17 December 2006 (MST)

1. Fixed Mark-Givers language thing by adding Dark Speech Feat.
2. Re: Different Abilities. The reason I gave different abilities with each rank was to reflect the differences in the rituals themselves. Each rank is marked by a different set of rituals. The first rank is induction into the guild and is marked by a burning scarification which is supposed to reflect Acerbus's own fiery beginnings as a palrethee. The second rank is a heavy duty scarification that, in effect, toughens the member. The third rank is a reflection of Acerbus's own dark designs for gaining more power through burning inscriptions of symbols of power onto his very flesh.
3. Check for shield and net... might make a reflex check or a concentration check. Profession is definitely not the way to go... --Calidore Chase 01:04, 18 December 2006 (MST)

Things are looking very nice, Calidore. Regarding the net/shield, I believe that the ability is balanced without the use of a check to summon the net/shield. I think the full-round action summoning balances the utility of the shield. I would recommend just making it a standard action to summon the net (no check necessary). On top of only being used 3/day for 1 minute, this seems like a very reasonable ability for an ~7th level character. Beyond that, I don't thus far see any glaring weaknesses. The class is looking extremely nice and polished. --EldritchNumen 14:32, 18 December 2006 (MST)

Thank you. I added the standard action creation to the net entry. Can't believe I forgot to put a creation time in. Now all I have to do is work out the darkfire guild wizard. --Calidore Chase 14:38, 18 December 2006 (MST)

Demons not Devil

Every now and then I saw that it says Devil insted of demon. Could somebody edit this for me because I am horrid at Editing.----Milo High-Hill 00:30, 16 October 2010 (MDT)

Done Calidore Chase 12:36, 20 September 2010 (MDT)