Talk:Dancer (3.5e Class)

Comments

Wow, this class looks amazing so far! keep it going! --Gedren56 11:40, 28 April 2009 (MDT)

Don't forget to put the Category:Final Fantasy and Copyright Disclaimer tags, since this is obviously inspired by FFT Dancer job. Besides that, great job, looking good. -Sarrow 16:25, 27 May 2009 (MDT)

Alignment

You should seriously think about removing alignment restriction from this class (and all base class in general, except paladin maybe). Seriously, alignment restriction really limit roleplaying and is a pain in the a$$ for character building, if it was a PrC it would be understandable but base class should have no entry condition, ever IMO. --The Zanni 01:34, 23 August 2009 (MDT)

I agree that classes shouldn't really have alignment restrictions, although some do make sense. But even in the PHB there are a few that have them, Monk (Any Lawful), Paladin (Only Lawful Good), Barbarian (Any Non-Lawful), Bard (Any Non-Lawful), Druid (Any Neutral), and Clerics (Cleric is limited by his chosen deity) all have alignment restrictions. That is 6 out of the 11 core base classes that have alignment restrictions, that is over half of them. But if anything you should just make this class Any Non-Lawful instead of Any Chaotic. -Sarrow 02:19, 23 August 2009 (MDT)

You can write most dancers are chaotic (don't make much sense IMO) but requiring to be alignment X to be Y base class is stupid. Why can't a lawful compositor be a bard? I could totally see a paladin/bard lass who think her music can redeem even the greatest evil, but without houserule you can't. Not all DM houserule right, so good character concept are often reduced to uselessness by a goddamned stupid rule. I challenge you to give me one advantage of alignment restriction (Paladin use a special code of conduct so9 it okay, but UA really fixed the problem about them anyway). --The Zanni 02:25, 23 August 2009 (MDT)

You have to think about the concept behind the class to understand why it has an alignment restriction. A bard can not be lawful because of its abilities to manipulate people, which is not lawful, through spells and abilities. So if you were to make a lawful bard and try to use its abilities and some of its spells you would soon change from lawful to neutral or chaotic anyways. I agree that alignment restrictions suck and shouldn't be there because it dampers character creation creativity, but it is there to help define the classes and to make it so that not everyone can be every class all at once.

About the Paladin though, I actually think that it has the dumbest alignment restriction. I always believed that they should have the same kind of restriction as a Cleric and the abilities just be based off of that. UA did a good job trying to allow for other aligned Paladins but I always saw them as a crusader of their deity but what about neutral deities. -Sarrow 11:52, 23 August 2009 (MDT)

Nah Paladin are not divine crusader, UA variant shouldn't be called Paladin anyway. A paladin is a knight of good, hope and whatever float your do-gooder boat. For the bard, in that case enchanters should be non-lawful, and all classes able to hurt someone any non-good. Lawful-chaotic is already disputed enough and gameplay-wise it cripple character creation.

Back to my point, what if a bard use his abilities to resolve revolts and eliminate rebellion. This bard is lawful as a mage who dedicate his life to fry demon with fireball is good. How and out-view of life can stop you from learning abilities? The paladin is sponsored by the force of good, as the cleric. But nothing stop the bard, no divine force, no patron, no concept to follow. Same thing for the dancer, what stop him/her to learn these abilities if he/she non-chaotic? This is why this class should have no alignment restriction. --The Zanni 17:04, 23 August 2009 (MDT)

Well actually based on the definition of Paladin and its roots it is just a knight that is positioned high in a court. So really any warrior who fights for a cause is a Paladin. About the Bard though, the act of making someone do something against their free will is not lawful or good in its own right, but the use of it could be defined as lawful or good. Just as killing someone with a blade can be seen as a good action if it is to save many. But that is why a bard is not lawful, one is because they are known to use their abilities to manipulate others to get what they want and the other is because they act chaotic (the rarely stay in one place and tend to act very flamboyant), but this is just the way that the core bard is created, this doesn't mean that you can't just houserule a lawful bard just like you could houserule a good drow. As drow in the MM are stated to always be evil. The rules are just supposed to be guide lines and they can be changed and defined better by the DM and the players with the DMs permission. -Sarrow 22:25, 23 August 2009 (MDT)

Then why the Beguiler is not any non-chaotic, the enchanter? The bard is a buffer, not a master manipulator. They have the option to deceive, and we can't rely on houseruling when we make a class or race. It why no one should make a class with alignment restriction, and PCs usually will metagame about all dancer not being trustworthy because they are chaotic. Or all monk being trsutworthy because they are lawful, I don't say they are but having fix alignment on a class is never a good thing. --The Zanni 22:30, 23 August 2009 (MDT)

CHA to AC

Generelly I´d say it´s ok to give a AC Bonus of the CHA modifier. But: Imagine I want to play basically a sorcerer or bard or another CHA-based class. And my GM allows the Dancer. Then this one small bit of powergaming that is in all of us says: take one level of Dancer, it won´t decrease your magic ability (or other ability) too much plus you get a massive AC bonus, especially as a unarmored sorcerer or as a bard who could only wear light armor as alternative. This is the reason, why the duelist prestige class has the limitation on canny defense that your maximum bonus to AC by intelligence is your duelist level. A wizard who wants to use his intelligence bonus both for spells and canny defense would need a lot of duelist levels and by that reduces his casting abilities. (the wisdom AC bonus of the monk on the other hand can´t be used in this fashion since all casters-by-wisdom can wear armor anyway. I´d advise you to do the same as done by the duelist here: limit the AC bonus to the level of dancer. (Oh and think about this 2x CHA at 10th level, I´m not sure but could be a little bit too powerfull) (And I really like the basic concept of your class. Good work.)

i think the same. CHA to armor class is good but x2 CHA at lvl 10? maybe tooo overpowered. maybe with evasion at lvl 2 you can take out the x2...

and i think this class need more atk options.

Rating

Power - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because it seems overpowered to me. Her Dance ability has no limit on how much times a day she can use it. There are also no rank requirements for Perform (Dance) listed for the dances. I'm going to relate this to the bard so I would think that some of the dances would require concentration checks if the dancer tries to do something else while dancing or is attacked. There is also no time limit for each dance which seems a bit overpowered to me. There should be some kind of time limit for how long she can keep up with the effects of each one. --Boonbies (talk) 20:00, 6 August 2012 (MDT)

Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because you definitely got the idea down clearly but some things I had to read over twice before I fully understood what you meant. --Boonbies (talk) 20:00, 6 August 2012 (MDT)

Formatting - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it is easy to read through but some things I feel should be separated like when you explain what a Dance is. It's kind of just shoved in under Knight's Armored Defense and there is no real name to it, just "Dance". --Boonbies (talk) 20:00, 6 August 2012 (MDT)

Flavor - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because I love the flavor behind it but it seems like a minimal amount of information. It's just enough to give me a basic understanding but not really in-depth. --Boonbies (talk) 20:00, 6 August 2012 (MDT)

Rating

Balance - 0/5 I give this class a X out of 5 because the unlimited ability to cast spells from many spell lists, initially with no skill roll and then a pitifully low one would mean dancers throwing out 9th level spells ad infinitum.. I suggest making the skill dc 15 +(spell levelx3) and limit it's use to dancer level x Cha bonus perhaps (limited uses per day at any rate).. Maybe a spell point system 82.145.222.243 03:02, 12 April 2014‎

Wording - 5/5 Excellent descriptive content and succinct :-) 82.145.222.243, 12 April 2014

Formatting - 5/5 well laid out and easy to absorb 82.145.222.243 03:02, 12 April 2014

Flavor - 5/5 I've always thought their should be variations of the bard.. Entertainment comes in many forms 82.145.222.243, 12 April 2014

perhaps a physical combatant variation would be good too.. The speed, flexibility and balance would be comparable to a monk, but more like a subtle 'soft' form

Ex-Dancer

The sentence about being able to continue advancing as a dancer after returning to non-lawful alignment is unnecessary. No such statement is made for the bard class, which is otherwise the same text. At any rate, the sentence was grammatically incorrect, and so I had corrected it in that regard, but I've now removed it entirely. It now perfectly mirrors the statement for ex-bards.
The multi-class clause regarding the AC Bonus extraordinary ability does not belong here. I have therefore reworded it to the same effect (hopefully) and moved it to the bottom of the relevant ability's description. If there is a problem with the wording, please reword it to the intended meaning, but it still doesn't belong under the "Ex-Dancer" section.
The injection of the words "or any skills in Perform (Dancing)" is definitely not worded correctly. If there's supposed to be some rules about the effects of a dancer losing ranks of her perform (dancing) skill, that needs to be delineated in detail. If the intent here was simply to refer to the dancer's special skills that require certain ranks of perform (dancing), this statement doesn't belong in this section, and I feel it's unnecessary, as the skills themselves already note the requirements. If it needs to be explained how a reduction to a dancer's perform (dancing) skill affects her ability to use her special dances, it should instead be done in the section detailing the dances. 98.17.54.217 23:54, 16 February 2018 (MST)

This is not a bard.

I don't think there's anything wrong with fixing the grammatical errors or making things appear nicer, but I'd caution against too heavily mirroring the bard. That said, I think the current revision is fine. --Jwguy (talk) 22:55, 20 February 2018 (MST)

Class Features

For the record, I'm the one who made the recent edits (under 98.17.54.217).
I feel like the dancer should have more weapon proficiencies. I don't want to go crazy here, but there are a number of weapon types that would be fitting for a dancer. With regards to what she currently gets, the simple weapons I consider befitting a dancer are daggers, punching daggers, all 3 types of spear, quarterstaves, and maybe darts and javelins. I also think the whip is good. Of course dancers shouldn't be limited to only using weapons that seem stereotypically appropriate, but they should at least automatically get access to some of the weapon types that best fit a dancing style of combat. I think they should at least get proficiency with sabers, short swords, and glaives (think of the Chinese pudao or guandao). Additional weapon types that would make sense are guisarme, ranseur, halberd, falchion, sai, and longsword. I also don't think they should get spiked chain proficiency. I think I understand the idea behind that, but I don't think it really fits. I mean, it's got spikes all over it; it's pretty unwieldy. At the least, if anything should be removed for fear of giving dancers too many proficiencies, it's the spiked chain.

With regards to spells, shouldn't there be something saying that all of a dancer's spells necessarily have somatic components, and that they can't be enhanced by the Still Spell metamagic feat? Also, since the Silent Spell metamagic feat says that it can't be applied to bard spells, dancers would need to be exempted from this restriction somewhere in the class description (since their spells are taken from the bard list, they still count as bard spells, right?). I'm assuming here that, where a bard necessarily sings to cast his spells, a dancer necessarily dances (which is not to exempt them from any other spell components). I was also thinking, and this may act as a counterbalance to always having a somatic component, maybe they should be able to cast their spells without needing to have at least one hand free for somatic components, so they could have a weapon in each hand. Assuming they cast their spells by dancing, it doesn't seem like it would impede on that. This especially seems important for consistency's sake, as making a perform (dance) check doesn't entail having a free hand, so a dancer can use any of her special dances with a weapon in each hand; casting her spells would presumably be no different. Would this be too powerful? Dancinswords (talk) 20:16, 21 February 2018 (MST)