Talk:Boxer (5e Class)

???

what is the difference between a boxer and a Kickboxer? 23.251.23.105 13:46, 26 December 2023 (MST)

This vs Monk/Fighter

Is this simply better than a monk or fighter?   ~BigShotFancyMan   talk   09:31, 23 September 2019 (MDT)

Textbook OP

I'm guessing whoever wrote this watched anime boxing. Reading through this and I can say with some confidence that you could get rid of subclasses entirely and this would still be more powerful than pretty much any physical class from WotC. Seems to have the best abilities from Fighter/Monk/Rogue with zero drawback and unlimited uses. The Rhythm abilities, while a cool idea, are quite easy to abuse since every attack you make is an unarmed strike. I think this class needs to have a few more revisions before anyone tries to play this is a campaign, unless the DM is cool with an unkillable, non-magic user. At higher levels Power Punch would be a free Fireball every turn with no limit to use. Bob and Weave plus Guard would grant +6 AC every turn and adding in Brace would mean you're basically shrugging off most damage you would be taking. Ten-Count Recover allows you to never die for ten separate hit dice, paired with Endurance at 15, you cannot be killed unless the DM makes it obvious that's what they're doing. Physical Prowess means you never fail a saving throw, ever. Adding in limits to abilities and changing some so they are just copy/paste from existing classes is pretty much all that's needed. Get rid of Boxer-puncher entirely as it is literally "see Fighter". Maybe add in a little bit of a magical element so it doesn't seem like some guy punching is more powerful than a greataxe wielding Barbarian. ----Ancalagon 20/4/2022 8:05am EST

I'm an enthusiast of boxing overall (both anime-fictional boxing and real life boxing) and an amateur boxer myself, so your guess is correct. Let me address your concerns:

• Rhythm features and abuse: To activate a rhythm ability, you need to build it up by hitting your attacks. If you miss the attack, which will happen about 1/3 of the time by design, you don't build any. Compare this with the rogue, the mechanical inspiration for this class. The rogue can deal about the same damage, but every turn. The rogue can boost the damage even further with the use of cantrips such as booming blade. Rhythm is basically a reworked sneak attack, less reliable since you must build it up during combat, but more versatile. In terms of damage output though, it has virtually no difference.

• Power punch is a Fireball without limit to use: Again, how? Fireballs are 20-foot radius and 120 feet of area. The average damage of power punch is about 45 points of damage at its maximum power. This is about the same average damage for a Warlock casting Eldritch Blast every turn.

• Bob weave and guard and high AC bonus. I see validity in this argument, i should make bob and weave and guard have a Rhythm cost, and i'll change that. However, If you use guard you sacrifice power punch, which make you have to choose between good offense and good defense, not being able to pull off both at the same time.

• Ten Count Recover: Again, valid concern. I'll change it to being usable once per short rest.

• Physical Prowess: Another valid concern. I seem to have built way too much tank abilities on this attacker class. I'll change that.

• Boxer Puncher is just see fighter: I mean, only if you think Arcane Trickster is "see Eldritch Knight". Martial Superiority is a feature that can be used with other classes.

• "Maybe add in a little bit of a magical element so it doesn't seem like some guy punching is more powerful than a greataxe wielding Barbarian" Well, you seem to find this a bad thing, so we have to agree to disagree on that.

Overall, i will adopt your suggestions and make changes concerning the tankiness of this class. As for the damage output, i made my case for why i think it is in line with other core classes. Thank you for the feedback! Anastacio (talk) 07:25, 20 April 2022 (MDT)

If I'm reading this correctly, you could just hang out at max Rhythm and use your bonus actions to Power-Punch Sneak Attack equivalent damage every turn, as long as you can hit twice. On average, if my math is correct (which it might not be), that's gonna net you about 77% the damage output of Sneak Attacking every round. However, you can also spend 1 Rhythm to deal an addition 1d6 damage every hit and then immediately regain the Rhythm you spent (or if you interpret the timing differently, hang out at one less than max, gain a point, and then immediately spend it for damage). At 3rd level that extra 1d6 on every attack you successfully land could bump your damage to well over the normally expected output of SA, though it would slowly become less important as you level up. If you really wanted to spike someone, hitting them with Power-Puncher and sacrificing all of your Rhythm at once to do double SA damage would be an unsustainable but very powerful option. And even without these edge case, you can otherwise trade Rhythm for d6s of damage to make up for that 23% damage deficit. All told, your DPS is roughly on par with a rogue, but with greater flexibility--you can more readily guarantee some of the damage, and when it really counts you can pull off more damage.

With all that said: you have Cunning Action and Uncanny Dodge equivalents that cost Rhythm, which is weaker than a Rogue, but you also have a d10 hit die, BattleMaster-esque maneuvers, pseudo-Flurry of Blows (Punch Sequences, which can also help land that crucial Power Punch), pseudo-Stunning Strike, and everything the subclasses give you. Yes, most of it costs Rhythm to do, but it gives you flexibility. If a given ability is better than hanging out at max Rhythm putting out Rogue-like DPS, then you'll use it--if not, Rogue-like DPS is a perfectly fine thing to put out.

I'm not saying the class is broken, per se, just that I think some more work needs to be put into balancing the mechanics around Rhythm. If it were me, I wouldn't let anything scale based on how much rhythm you have,, and I would change how you gain Rhythm. Instead of either passively getting it for hitting with an attack or pausing to generate rhythm with a bonus action, I would tie it to its own useful maneuvers. Maybe offensive maneuvers cost Rhythm, Defensive maneuvers generate it (or vis versa), and since they compete for the same bonus actions (and occasionally reactions) it forces you to spend and replenish Rhythm throughout the fight. —Salasay ♄ 09:10, 24 May 2023 (MDT)