Talk:Boneblade Reaper (3.5e Prestige Class)

Comment

Shouldn't you edit this class to fit the alternate monk class you introduced in Dungeonomicon? Throw in some Martial styles, remove the Evasion requirement, stuff like that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.124.225.114 (talk • contribs) 16:59, 14 September 2008 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

There actually is one already; I'll add it to the page shortly. Thanks for reminding me! Surgo 18:06, 14 September 2008 (MDT)

I took care of it. I'm thinking about adding a sample NPC whom I have the info for somewhere on my hard drive. Genowhirl 13:15, 12 November 2008 (MST)

Rating

Power - 0/5 Completely broken. The class have d8, Good Saves, Full Bab. That not bad in particular but the class also have full spellcasting progression! I can barely imagine a wizard getting all his spell while having the double of his hit dice, all good saves, fighter bab and class feature. The class features are barely good enough (they are strong). I feel this class deserve 0/5 in term of balance since it one of the most broken class ive seen (yes even over the Planar Shepherd). --Lord Dhazriel 21:02, 18 September 2008 (MDT)

You have no idea what you're talking about. This is hardly "completely broken". You come into the class as a Spellcaster/Monk, which is quite possibly the suckiest multiclass idea in the game. Every single bonus that the class gets is necessary towards making such a character playable. Surgo 21:06, 18 September 2008 (MDT)

The result is unfortunately a Eldrith Knight on steroid, the class is better than any SRD class or any Gish-like class. They even have more spellcasting than the Knight itself, the class need working.--Lord Dhazriel 21:09, 18 September 2008 (MDT)

Once again, you have no idea what you're talking about. Go run some actual combats and come back to me when you're done playing theory-without-backing. Whether or not the class is "better than any SRD prestige class" (which its not) is irrelevant anyway. The fact of the matter is that the class caters to a very specific multiclass (monk/spellcaster), where every bonus the class gives is needed. Surgo 21:11, 18 September 2008 (MDT)

Monk doesn't have full bab. The class is the strongest gish I ever seen. Really taking the class alone make you stronger than the monk really. It like a monk, with full bab and complete spellcasting. I understand monk/mage is a difficult combo but many aspect of the class are overpowered. Again I go with the Eldrith Knight example: Gain one bonus feat at first level but no spellcasting level progression. After they gain no class feature. Okay maybe it seem irrelevant. Maybe it is but again what bug me is the full spellcasting. The class is giving excellent combat ability (only slightly below figther the base warrior class) and without any spells lost. And by the way i DMed for long enough to know what im talking about.--Lord Dhazriel 21:21, 18 September 2008 (MDT)

Taking it makes you stronger than the Monk? That's a good thing, the Monk is the weakest class out of all the base classes in the SRD. If you think you know what you're talking about then go run some combats. Monk 2/Wizard whatever/Boneblade Reaper up to level 10. Does the Boneblade Reaper defeat more than, less than, or exactly 50% of opponents of CR 10? I think you'll find the number at 50%, which is exactly what one wants. In addition, to the full spellcasting: if the class does not give full spellcasting, it might as well not give any spellcasting at all. Surgo 21:24, 18 September 2008 (MDT)

If the wizard is 1... the wizard cast like a 11th level wizard with slightly less bab than a figther. Okay now we make it fight a wizard of equal level. The Bonedblade Reaper have good bab since 10 level, good saves since 10 level, class features (who are not broken on themselves) and similar spellcasting. Also if both have 10 con and average hp per level the Bonedblade Reaper double the wizard hp. And the only edge the wizard haves a single spell level, how can he win. The Boneblade Reaper beat him in every single way (except for spellcasting where he is slightly weaker). --Lord Dhazriel 21:32, 18 September 2008 (MDT)

"One spell level" is a huge advantage. Keep in mind that a character's cohort can cast at his level minus two. The Boneblade Reaper is casting at the same strength as the fighter's wizard girlfriend, not at the strength of a normal player character. Surgo 21:41, 18 September 2008 (MDT)

He is still twice as strong in battle. He don't risk his life if an opponent catch him spelless, he can still defend himself. The fact is that he i stronger than all the Gish out here. Most base Gish barely have 4th level magic over 20 level. The class is interesting I like it but it need work, maybe giving it mid bab and half spellcasting would balance thing out.--Lord Dhazriel 21:45, 18 September 2008 (MDT)

Gish suck. Wizards already make better Gish than Gish (not to mention Clerics), thanks to the wonderful Spell Compendium or, hell, even just Polymorph. A few other points to make in repsonse to your post: by the time you can take your first level of Boneblade Reaper, a Wizard of the same level will never have to worry about running out of spells. Hell, you can just be Wizard 5/Incantatrix 2 and Polymorph will last all day (thus the Wizard doesn't risk his life if he's spell-less either). Half-spellcasting? Um, no. You're already casting like a cohort, any less and you're useless. In addition, the difference between medium BAB and strong BAB for most of your career in this PrC is seriously a number that's small enough you might forget you have it. Surgo 21:50, 18 September 2008 (MDT)

Hmm. I wouldn't give it a 0, since that's stating that balance couldn't get any worse. Let's say that you're a Monk/Sorcerer, considering this PrC for your next level. Since most of the prereqs are monk based, let's say our example is level 6/2. Obviously, Sorcerer has no benefit in taking another class, since there's full arcane caster progression. Even if one were a Wizard, this would be more advantegeous than the bonus feats. However, comparing at most 10 levels of this class with the next 10 potential levels of monk, we lose a large portion of the special abilities for another large portion, unarmed damage progression for Con damage conditionally (Which is a plus), AC bonus for a conditional AC bonus that is much higher, and a speed bonus for a... speed bonus. And we get a slight bump to BAB. If you cut the spellcasting progression down to at most 4 per 5 levels, I'd give it a 3 or 4, because so many of the bonuses are conditional. Right now, I'd put it at 2 or 3. Basically, I'm pretty sure that Prestige classes aren't supposed to give a "Why shouldn't I take this?" mentality, to which I think this one is close. Wow, that was a messed up edit conflict. I think it was your spacing, Dhazriel. --Chaiyo Kaldor 21:31, 18 September 2008 (MDT)

Again, "why shouldn't I take this" is hardly a bad thing in that case, considering how much the Monk sucks and how continuing with Monk would make your spellcasting levels pointless. Surgo 21:42, 18 September 2008 (MDT)

Because you must make sacrifice to gain spellcasting. The Eldrith Knight does, the Duskblade does and any gish does. The monk/wizard shouldn't be a better monk and a wizard. Seriously even without spellcasting I would take this class instead of monk. Imagine if the Eldrith Knight was stronger than the fighter, d12, 2 good saves (will and fort) and a bunch of abilities, and full spellcasting. This one can beat the Monk or the Wizard, even if it not a equal caster (if they do as spell duel the wizard will not win considering the superior saves and the superior hp of the Boneblade reaper.). Seriously we are taking all the page :D --Lord Dhazriel 21:58, 18 September 2008 (MDT)

Except it's not a better wizard. Its wizardness is restricted cohort spellcasting. And being better than a Monk is irrelevant. Everything should be better than a Monk. And it most certainly cannot beat the Wizard. As has been previously mentioned, the Wizard has an entire level of spells on this guy. That is a huge advantage that you seem to be underestimating to a ridiculous degree. Surgo 22:04, 18 September 2008 (MDT)

←Reverted indentation to one colon

Really im getting tired of arguing, the saves on this class and the prerequise evasion even ashame a wizard. In a spell duel the wizard may win, the spell level doesn't equal all the hp, the saves, the bab the Boneblade Reaper gain. Yes it a new spell level, but it mean nothing since he have the saves to halves or negate the effect, the hp to survive the backfire. And no I don't underestimate a spell level I know how powerful caster are but you are underestimating the save, the bab, the hp and the class feature. Even if one isn't equalling a spell level and some extra spells. On a bright side I noticed the class isn't that unbalanced and is pretty respectable when combining with a divine class. But still the class is clearly not perfect and need work. --Lord Dhazriel 22:18, 18 September 2008 (MDT)

I'm increasing my rating, thought about it and it not seriously overpowered. I mean nothing compare to the shepherd or the Frenzied Berserker. Rating is now 3/5.--Lord Dhazriel 13:05, 8 November 2008 (MST)

Wording - 4/5 The wording is good, while not excellent I feel it deserve a 4/5. --Lord Dhazriel 21:02, 18 September 2008 (MDT)

Formatting - 4/5 It formatted good enough, however since the page isn't complete (some section are missing) I give to this page a 3/5 for formatting. --Lord Dhazriel 21:02, 18 September 2008 (MDT)

This is a pet peeve of mine, actually -- the missing sections are really not necessary. For about half or more of 3.5's lifetime, the sections didn't even exist -- they're actually the new PrC format, while this follows the old PrC format (which is basically the new format while taking up fewer pages). Most of those sections are totally useless anyway -- "X in the world" is the only thing that's worth writing, and even then it's so campaign specific that you might as well not. Surgo 21:14, 18 September 2008 (MDT)

I understand that, normally I am more like "no fluff is needed". Thy need to be done but it not worth a 3 so I revise my ranking to 4. --Lord Dhazriel 21:34, 18 September 2008 (MDT)

Flavor - 4/5 I like the flavor, it not bad at all. So i think it deserve at least a 4/5. --Lord Dhazriel 21:02, 18 September 2008 (MDT)

Boneblade what?

My problem isn't with the PrC itself - I think it's horrifically overpowered, wouldn't allow one in any game I'm running, and that's the extent of my willingness to discuss that part - but rather with the Boneblade Master Feat required to get in. What exactly is "boneblade" (I haven't managed to find it, as all references in the Wiki appear to merely redirect to the same page, where it is not described)? I assume it's some kind of magically hardened bone useful for making weapons out of it. Without a definition of this material, this pleasant little Feat appears to give you a buffet of Feats in one shot. An effective universal weapon proficiency, specialized crafting ability, effectively universal Improved Critical use, and a bonus to initiative. Granted, the silly rules regarding Craft: Alchemy (why would you need to be a spellcaster to create substances that are not magical, do not require magic, and are actually intended to replace magic? /rant) prevent an Int 10 Fighter from dumping eight starting skill points into two Crafts in order to pick up this Feat at third level, but it won't stop any other front line combatant class with spell casting from doing so - like a Cleric scrimshawing himself a shiny new necromantic great sword that he gets free proficiency with. Atypicaloracle 12:54, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Boneblades: Boneblades are alchemically and necromantically hardened blades made from the bones of intelligent creatures, and the material can only be created by craftsmen with the Boneblade Master feat. For an unknown reason, they only retain their special properties if they are made into light slashing or piercing weapons. Boneblades used in melee combat ignore the damage reduction of any undead creature and can hit incorporeal creatures as if they were magic weapons with the ghost touch property.. Boneblades made from dragon bones can be combined with the Dragoncrafter feat to produce items with both properties. Cost: 1,000 gp per lb.

From here: Tome_of_Necromancy (3.5e Sourcebook)--read through and take a long look. The class itself is enterable pretty much only as a Monk/Spellcaster, meaning you take second place in one-on-one melee combat and your spellcasting is at at most that of a cohort--so you'd be keeping up with the Fighter's wizard girlfriend. Long story short: It only looks horrifically overpowered. But it doesn't exist in a vacuuum. Which is why the chassis and class features are pretty rockin'--this character's going to need some serious chops to stay in the game. --Genowhirl 17:34, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

"Oh look, it's my thirtieth birthday... those aging penalties are coming up... whelp... time to throw myself off the tallest structure I can until it kills me so that I can fight an undead missing its most dangerous attack form... *yawn* Man, being an immortal killing machine is tough." Atypicaloracle 22:39, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Wow, the people you play with must be pretty awful if that's what you immediately think of upon seeing that ability. --Genowhirl 01:04, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Meh, the monk gets Timeless Body one level earlier, and doesn't have to literally fistfight death to get it. I would think of the two portions of Dance with the Dark Reaper that you would be more worried about is the part that gives you a chance to true res every time you die.

And if that's the kind of group you play with, there's nothing stopping you from using an advanced Dark Reaper. After all, he gains experience every time he fights as well :) JazzMan 01:27, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

And holds a grudge. --Genowhirl 01:39, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Rating

Power - 0/5 I give this class a 0 out of 5 because it is absurdly powerful --173.245.56.152 15:10, 24 August 2011 (MDT)

No it's not. You're going into this as a Monk/Wizard (or sorceror). Congratulations, you have more MAD and less synergistic class features than any other pair of classes in the game. It's a cool flavor, but the mechanics as-written don't give you much help. So the power of these abilities are there to help a Monk/Necromancer wizard make up some of that ground you lose because you didn't single-class monk or wizard. --173.245.56.158 20:02, 24 August 2011 (MDT)

Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it is written fairly well --173.245.56.152 15:10, 24 August 2011 (MDT)

Formatting - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because it fails to provide a DC for its abilities with saves --173.245.56.152 15:10, 24 August 2011 (MDT)

Flavor - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it has pretty good flavor --173.245.56.152 15:10, 24 August 2011 (MDT)

Rating

Power - 1/5 I give this class a 1 out of 5 because fighter base attack bonus, 1:1 spell progression, all good saves, and powerful abilities like being healed by both negative and positive energys, a free armor with no penalty of +8 at first level going up to +17, move speed increase going up to +60 makes this class beyond the power level of just about any other prestige class available to players that im aware of. Before you even say "youre going into this as a monk/wizard" what exactly prevents me from taking this class as a rogue5/wizard1 or rogue2/wizard4? Even a ranger9 could pick it up without even multiclassing. Weapon finesse and your super boneblade feat both benefit rogues and rangers really well, so all hes giving up is one feat to gain all this power. --173.245.52.121 19:17, 18 May 2012 (MDT)

You can actually take this class by level 3 if you use the rogue progression and take skill focus as your level 3 feat. 1 wizard or sorcerer 2 rogue and the feat give you a max skill rank of 9 with enough points to make sure you qualify. And that is with old school feats not the kind that F&K routinely came up with making this thing absurdly easy and powerful. Tivanir (talk) 20:18, 18 May 2012 (MDT)

Disregard I stand corrected. With the three feats required the character still needs to be sixth level. Tivanir (talk) 20:19, 18 May 2012 (MDT)

Skill focus doesn't give you ranks, it gives you a bonus. A class with prerequisite of 9 ranks in a skill can't be entered into earlier than 7th level, no matter what. JazzMan 13:48, 19 May 2012 (MDT)

Max ranks is level +3 so 6th. That is completely beside the point anyways as the three feat requirement for the class ensures you won't make it until 6th. However this thing is able to be taken by a wide range of different things that would find it very valuable, so I am fairly certain it needs to be tweaked. Hell 1 sor/5 rogue would make it pretty disturbing and high AC for a combat variant. Tivanir (talk) 14:56, 19 May 2012 (MDT)

Right, you get the ranks at 6th level to qualify to enter at... 7th. As I said. And the feats don't require 6th level, either: a human monk or fighter can have the requisite feats at 1st level; a non-human fighter at 2nd level. This thing needs quite a bit of tweaking, though, to be viable (full BAB/Fort/Ref/Will/Spellcasting? Something's got to give. Not to mention the AC bonus needs to be toned down by like a factor of 8.) JazzMan 08:23, 21 May 2012 (MDT)

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because all the abilities and what they do are easily understandable. --173.245.52.121 19:17, 18 May 2012 (MDT)

Formatting - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because the progression of the armor bonus is not marked in the chart, which some people might overlook. --173.245.52.121 19:17, 18 May 2012 (MDT)

Flavor - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because at the end of the day its just a guy who uses bone swords. He gets some related powers like his wraith strike, but its mostly unrelated abilities like scarring himself for an armor bonus or being unable to resurrect unless he defeats a strong monster. --173.245.52.121 19:17, 18 May 2012 (MDT)

Ignore above. On further review im giving this class flavor a 1/5. The requirements for the class as a decent dexterity, improved unarmed strike, and the evasion quality, and its been said multiple times here that its intended for Monks. Why then is there nothing in the class that benefits anything a monk has? In fact, it actively discourages you from using your monk abilities since boneblade weapons can only be made with slashing and piercing weapons. It doesnt have a single power that synergies with the monks signature move, ki strike,and only one that works with stunning fist so why if I wanted to be a monk wizard would I pick up a prestige class that ignores the powers of a monk? Furthermore the class is called Boneblade "Reaper" and multiple powers remind you that you are in fact in the service of the grim reaper, yet nothing requires you to actually use his favored weapon the scythe. In fact once again you are actively discouraged by the class from using a scythe since you have to have weapon finesse and improved unarmed strike to take the class, neither of which are compatible. All in all this is a jumbled class that looks like it wants to be all that looked cool to the author with no real sense of theme.173.245.56.203 16:36, 20 May 2012 (MDT)

I agree 100% with your comments here and above. This class could be really, really cool as a monk/caster hybrid (umm... and it would probably need to define whether it's arcane or divine) but as it stands it's kind of a "benefit every possible entry path" class which makes it kinda blah. JazzMan 08:23, 21 May 2012 (MDT)