Talk:Bio-Android (Dragon Ball Supplement)
Balancing[edit]
About the Proficiency = Racial feature, it will work on lower levels, but later on... man, this thing will get CRAZY. i think would be best to be 1 + Half of Your Proficiency Modifier (rounded down).
We would erase this part of bio-android and add to the Transformations that if you are a Bio-Android by race, you use them as Supplementary instead of base
Totally agree that their Bio-Android form should be supplementary. I think all "android" forms should be supplementary for them since logically, you should be able to enter the forms of your constituent races like 21 does (and Cell in a lot of unofficial content like entering a Golden Frieza type form). I'm fine with limiting the features they can steal. If anything we could change it entirely from being proficiency based to instead being a strict number that increases at the exact same time as proficiency bonus, but slows down progressively past level 20. I'm throwing this out there with 0 forethought so I'll most likely go back on it, but that's my idea at the moment. Iirc, Prof Bonus goes up by 1 every 4 levels and caps out at +6 at level 20. Then we could have it slow down to only going up by 1 every 6 levels, then 8. Whatever ends up being completely even at level 60 tbh. Then we can balance test it at some point to see how bad it actually is.
Why not give them 2 features at the start and at each 6 or 7LVs, they get a extra one? this would give them a total of 8 features by levelling and 2 by lv1 ----Midalos (talk) 16:27, 15 November 2024 (MST)
Sure. If you want to add that for me you can do so, and I'll go back and fix up the wording afterwards. Spooks2222 (talk) 14:10, 15 November 2024 (MST)
As i said, having 7 Racial Features at lv20 and 19 at lv60 is just something that does not work, just for the how powerfull and broken this can become. having as 1 + Half is the perfect spot, if we keep the ideia, along with the unique Racial Feature that gives +1 to STR, DEX and CON (as the Bio-Android gain the Bio-Android Transformation as a Supplementary Form), this make a Race that gain a total of 6 Score points and has a massive power if used in the right way.
Anyway, i loved the ideia. Good Job broda! d=====(￣▽￣) ----Midalos (talk) 16:27, 15 November 2024 (MST)
Programmed Techniques[edit]
At the moment I feel like Bio-Android doesn't have enough going for it to actually entice anyone to play as it. I wanted to add a feature that gives even more versatility to their race, because at the moment, you'd be far better off going as a Majin and gaining all of the upsides of being a Bio-Android with none of the downsides. Programmed Techniques allows Bio-Androids to actually have some unique features, but at a really hefty cost. The absolute highest that a Bio-Android can get is a 20 in their Wisdom which gives them +5 starting techniques. If the players are using Standard Array (15,14,13,12,10,8) then the highest they could start with is a 17, giving them +3 techniques. If they did have +5 starting techniques, they have to spend 4 ki-points on any technique they use. This means that outright, they can't use any of their Programmed Techniques for a few levels unless they're either playing with the Extra Ki variant rule, or an ally gives them additional energy. This is accurate since obviously Larval Cell couldn't throw out any Kamehameha's or instant transmission. It will take some time for them to actually be able to tap into these abilities, and more often than not the cost is WAY to high for them at such a low level. I'm essentially using this to gives Bio-Androids that same ability that Cell has, using the same techniques as all the people that comprise him. Spooks2222 (talk) 12:00, 17 November 2024 (MST)
About the Programmed Techniques, it's a good ideia, BUT taking into account the ability to pick up super and superior techniques right from the start is a great danger (at least, that's my understanding from RAW).
I recommend (if we're going to leave it as it is now), limiting it so that the character can only take 1 level above the one he has access to, i.e. if he has access to Basic, he can take Advanced, if he can take Advanced, he can take Super and so on.
Also by putting in the inability to change these techniques, once the character has chosen which ones are Programmed, they can't be changed and can't benefit from Feats to increase their power.
And to end all this, if the Optional Rule to more Technique Slots is used on the game, a Bio-Android can end with 73 (18 + 18 + 12 + 25) slots and that's just TOO much slots and even if the rule is not being used, ending with 55 (18+12+25) slots is also TOO much, Half as much of the Wisdom Mod (rounded down) can work like a charm.
But it's a good Feature idea. ----Midalos (talk) 12:17, 17 November 2024 (MST)
They can't use anything above Legendary Techniques because everything above Legendary is either A. Way too expensive to cast with the modifier on it or B. A transformation, which they aren't allowed to take. Technically, they're capped out at using Super Abilities because they can't afford to cast anything higher until they hit around level 10. Even then, most Super Abilities they would only be able to cast once before running out of Ki, or they just outright can't cast because they cost too much. Even if they did use feats and other boosters, they don't have that many options. As for them having too many techniques, we can remove the "Fundamental" part of it and just reduce it to being a base technique. Also, yes, Bio-Androids will have a lot of techniques. I don't exactly see where you got that number from because they can only benefit from this feature ONCE, that means at most they'll have +5 above other races. I think you might have misunderstood. They only get to select the abilities they want to have for Programmed Techniques at level 1, and the max for it is +5 unless the DM allows them to go beyond the Ability Score max of 20 which would require they absolutely weaken themselves in every other area. They don't gain more over time. You benefit from Programmed Techniques once, you select the techniques you're taking from the creatures that went into your creation. The only time the racial feature even matters again is if you reach the level of the feature you took (i.e I hit level 29 so now I no longer have to spend additional Ki Points to cast my Programmed Technique). Edit: Just remembered why I chose fundamental specifically. Cell had stolen a ton of abilities from other people. I still want that to be possible for Bio-Android players. So I'll leave it as a fundamental feature. Spooks2222 (talk) 12:35, 17 November 2024 (MST)
it's mainly how it's written that open thoses possibilitys i said, if don't state that this only works at lv1 and even if the character increase it's bonus, someone can understand it that it can happen.
also, about numbers, always try to see in the "worst" case scenario, in this case is a Players with all instances of technique training (+2 slots for instance) feat + maximum proficiency bonus + Wisdom Mod.
I understand what you want to do and I like the idea, I just don't think it's balanced for setting (how it is now), simply the fact that you can pick up more powerful techniques (even if you won't be able to use them effectively) is a big danger (even more so with final flash and hakai existing).
I think this feature should be a Racial Feat, it's much more balanced (since the race itself won't have any advantage over the others apart from balancing it with them), but it still gives you the freedom to grow in power.
Midalos (talk) 12:41, 17 November 2024 (MST)
Feat Like this:
Programmed Techniques[edit]
- Requirement: Be a Bio-Android Race*
When you acquire this feat, you receive your wisdom modifier (with a limit of 5) in techniques of your choice, such techniques can go beyond your maximum technique slots and maximum tier of technique you know, with a limit of just one level above. If you increase your Wisdom modifier, you can choose a new technique for the purposes of this feat.
If you choose a Technique that is above your maximum Technique tier, you must pay +3 extra Ki points to use those Techniques until you have access to the Technique tier they belong to.
Furthermore, these techniques cannot be exchanged for other techniques, nor can they benefit from feats that affect techniques.
Also, even if you want to still gain this feat at lv1, you can! by getting the Human Feat Feature with your Cells Feature. This way the Race does have a way to boost it's power by a feat (feats are plentiful in this setting) and other races will not will get overshadowed behind it Midalos (talk) 12:55, 17 November 2024 (MST)
I wouldn't want to change it to a Racial Feat since it's not something that's "acquired" or "learnt". It's a guarantee that every single person who is a Bio-Android, regardless of how they were created, gains the abilities of their formers. I'm fine with leaving it the way it is because it is completely unviable for a player to use these techniques without them feeling it's necessary (I'll circle back to this at the end of this paragraph), or without extreme help from their party members. If we're going to say "it could be OP because of the Variant Rules," every race is OP under those conditions. Especially Demons who far outclass other races under the Additional Ki rule. As for Final Flash and Hakai being issues, Hakai cannot be used in normal play until at LEAST close to level 20, and even when they get the ability to use it once, no player would do it. I say this for a wide variety of reasons.
- 1. Hakai is VERY expensive. Most players aren't going to sacrifice all of their Ki to activate it just to be entirely out of Ki, as that leaves them open for multiple rounds while other enemies are still active.
- 2. If an enemy is so dangerous a player thinks that they need to use Hakai, chances are they're not going to actually succeed, because that enemy can easily beat the player's saving throw. If they have +5 techniques, they have to spend an additional 4 ki (29 total ki) to cast their ability, which at MAX has a DC 11 save, and the targeted creature gets to decide which stat they want to counter with. Absolutely 0 creatures at level 20 should be failing a DC 11 save unless the DM is forcing it to happen. The player will fail 9 times out of 10, and even in the 1 time that they succeed, they've used all their Ki to defeat 1 creature. It's not viable.
Final Flash on the other hand could be dangerous, but again, the additional cost means that using it will automatically drain 4 Ki Points per turn. And this is assuming that the targeted creature doesn't counter the attack with an attack that costs MUCH less Ki to use, and easily overpowers the beam. It is NOT viable for a player to use this until they reach close to the intended level to do it in standard play. While it's still entirely possible for Final Flash to be very powerful, it also requires that the player and their party are willing to do the set-up to lock-down an enemy to hit them with it. And that's honestly the exact kind of thing I want my players to do as a DM, because if they just throw out this attack blindly, it's going to punish them horribly both in Ki Cost and the damage they're going to take in response. Spooks2222 (talk) 13:11, 17 November 2024 (MST)
Edit: My math on the saves was incorrect before. To quickly fix it. Even with the Additional Ki rule, the earliest a player could cast Hakai is at level 15 with a DC of 15 with the creature getting to select whatever saving throw it wants to take. This isn't even dangerous for a CR 6 creature. For a CR 15 creature, they are NOT dying to this. For Final Flash the earliest you could cast it would be around levels 2-4, but you would only be able to use it for 1 turn before running out of Ki and needing to recharge (assuming the opposing creature doesn't punish your attack). So no, I really don't think anyone can abuse this feature unless the DM actively lets them. Even if they did, they'll be punished more often than not by the opposing creature.
Final flash is a one turn charge, so it's not the main problem here, but you get my point. It's the possibility that is the problem, if allow it to be made someone WILL make and that's the thing. Also Ki it's not a problem in the setting, as you can keep always recharging Ki in your turn.
And Also as far as i know, Fu and Android 21 are Bio-Androids and they don't focus on stolem Techniques like Cell does, it's more a CELL thing, not to all Bios. The Best option here, if you really wanna leave in the race and not as a feat, give it as Optional Feature or a Feature you can pay one of your stolen racial Features to have it.
Cuz as i said, Stolen Techniques are more of a Cell thing than anything, he was made to be something with that in mind, Fu, Mira and Android 21 are Bio-Androids, but that's not the focus on thier characters, thats why i said it could be a feat.
Midalos (talk) 13:28, 17 November 2024 (MST)
You can't recharge Ki until level 14, meaning up until that point using any OP techniques is a complete sacrifice of your Ki and leaves you open for the rest of the day. Fu is a special case, Android 21 isn't because she actually does copy a lot of abilities such as her Candy Beam. Hell, her entire moveset in her game is stealing somebody's abilities in the middle of the fight by using her quarter-circles to grab the opponent and rip whatever type of attack they own. By the time the players hit level 14 they might be able to cast some of those powerful techniques, but it's still not viable because you have to spend your ENTIRE turn to recharge, which leaves you fully open as you lose your Reaction. I see why the ability seems like it could be abused, but that's why I immediately came here afterwards to clarify. The Ki Cost of the abilities helps even things out perfectly. Every technique you steal becomes high risk, and the reward varies widely depending on which ability you've chosen. Again, I do see how it seems like it could be abused. Not trying to be too over confident, I just feel like it's not as abusable, and it highly makes up for the difference in power between them and other races which get access to incredibly good forms, when Bio-Androids don't even get their racial forms until over half-way through the campaign (Level 39 out of 60). Spooks2222 (talk) 13:37, 17 November 2024 (MST)
Look man, i really wish we could keep the feature (At the moment the best it can be as a Racial Feature it's only as optional), because the feature itself is balance? yes it is! BUT not to the setting, you can see in all races no Racial Features is like it and theres the enlightened training epic boon that make what the feature does and a little more. i really sad by doing this, cuz i liked the feature itself, but for the sake o balance within the setting itself, the best we can keep it to be or a Feat or as your proficiency bonus as extra slots for techniques. (and being this way is actually stronger than your take on it, cuz yeah you can't use techniques in upper tiers, but at the same time you far MORE options to the character).
So i'll have to leave it as a Proficiency Bonus in extra slots and maybe later the original version can become a Racial Feat, it's all for the sake of balance withing the setting.
Also, i usually say Hakai or Final Flash, cuz they are the biggest damage dealers in damage that it can be, BUT as someone that is always reading the setting and noticing more and more combos, the possibility that are balanced within the level they are adquired with Techniques, being made at lv1 is just something... that can't be used, even if you must pay more ki to it. (A Good example is the likes of Big Bang Family technique, you would only need pay in the worst case 13 Ki points, that's a lot, but still possible and for lvs below 15 is just too much damage in one action (+possible combos) that i sadly can't let it pass) and there things like Metamoran Fusion, Forced Spirit Fission and such techniques that are not damage dealers but are strong in thier own world.
I know we are making a Dragon Ball setting, but balancing still important thing (if not the most important one in my opinion), so again i'll have to nerf it (with sadness in my heart, cuz i really liked the ideia of the feature).
Midalos (talk) 16:31, 17 November 2024 (MST)
There are other races like Majins, Frost Demons, Cerelians, and Saiyans that get abilities on par with feats and epic boons. It’s the equivalent of saying “Majin’s shouldn’t have Rubber-gum body because it’s as strong as Phoenix Immortality”. It is absolutely balanced under this setting where you can actively get a 20 in all stats at level 1 as a Saiyan by abusing Zenaki Boosts and rolling good, no different with Frost Demons. The fact is that the only way you can get Metamoran Fusion, Big Bang Attack, or any other ability is if your DM lets you. This ability is entirely dependent on what the DM allows you to pick, because you are a manufactured being. I figured because the Bio-Android technique itself already clarifies this, it should be obvious. No, not any player can just select Metamoran Fusion, Final Flash, and Hakai. The DM would need to allow that intentionally by saying "You're made up of the cells of somebody who knows these overpowered techniques." At this point I think I'll just remake the entire thing as a variant rule itself since I'm not willing to strip an already relatively baren race to its skeleton just to keep "balance".
I'll have it in two segments. The top half will be dedicated to creating a Bio-Android for a PC, and the bottom half will be for creating a Bio-Android to serve as a Creature. For now I'll just request this pages deletion.