Talk:Battlemage (5e Class)

Discussion

This class is overpowered do not comment that it is too OP i already know this if you want to use a non op version make everything cost double the battlepoints and change deathblow to death on fail and 5d10 on succes!!! --Izik (talk) 18:13, 12 October 2015 (MDT)

Classes posted on this wiki are expected to be balanced. Marasmusine (talk) 01:17, 13 October 2015 (MDT)

Above i give you an option to keep it OP or lower its power so that you are not OP --Izik (talk) 06:11, 13 October 2015 (MDT)

Did you Even read the class --Izik (talk) 06:11, 13 October 2015 (MDT)

I have balanced the class without taking away too many features --Izik (talk) 15:18, 13 October 2015 (MDT)

I have balanced and improved several key points and abilities, and also improved the spelling and grammar. Epickinvg (talk) 17:52, 15 January 2016 (MDT)

This is a review of the class features

• Battle Casting: "Concentration" is not a casting time. 5e does not have "free actions".
• Spelled Blade: What is the limit? Can I spend 1 week of downtime with 100 cheap gems to imbue 300 spells?
• Extra Attack: This needs rewording, because Attack and Cast a Spell are different actions.
• Elemental slash: Does this apply to any attack? (weapon, spell, ranged, melee)
• Summon Allies: What action does this use? Where do the zombies appear? How long do they last for? How often can I use this? Does "stats" mean "ability scores"? Why are they all 16, that's better than most PCs? Do they have the traits of the zombie or skeleton in the Monster Manual? (immunity to poison, dark vision, etc?) What is their attack bonus and damage? How are they controlled?
• Reflexes: Does the "reataliate" [sic] use up a reaction? Do I take the full damage even if the triggering creature misses its attack? Is my "reataliate" a weapon attack?
• Pure blow: Is this used when you make the attack? What attacks does it work with? Does the creature make the saving throw when I attack, or only if I hit? What is the DC?
• Master of armors: Does this work if I'm not wearing armor?
• Abjured armor: What action does this need? Is it light, medium or heavy?
• Cursed armor: Does this work against any type of attack? Should this use up a reaction? "drain" isn't defined, does this mean reducing the opponent's hit points and adding to yours? How can it last until the start of your next turn, it's a single event?
• Thick air: "projectile" isn't defined (compare with a monk's deflect missiles which specifies ranged weapon attacks).
• Wall: What action does this use? Does it disappear at the start of your next turn if you do not spend the battle points? Does a 5 foot perimeter mean a square with 5 feet to a side? What is the (3x3)?
• Versatile: If this is applied on-the-fly, don't underestimate how powerful this is. You can use any spell to exploit the weakness of a creature (including bludgeoning, piercing, slashing as written)
• What action does this use? What is the range? Is it an attack roll, or does the target make a saving throw? How is "drain" defined? How often can I use this?
• Should there be a CR limit on the small humanoid I conjure? Does it use the statblock from the monster manual? (except you've specified ability scores and skills, so what about its other stats?) How many can I have running around at once? It has d6 HD, but how many hit points does it have?
• Smite: Does this use an attack or an attack action? What is the range? Is it an attack roll or a saving throw? Should this be lightning damage? How often can I use this?
• Sentinels of the Lunaris: I'm guessing this should be necrotic damage. Does the disadvantage apply to anyone considered your enemy, or is just against an attack roll made against you? Is the long rest recharge applying to the darkvision and disadvantage, or just the disadvantage?
• General: Where do these NPCs come from and what are their stats? What obligation are they under? (If they are perfectly loyal, and controlled by you, then you are effectively getting three extra actions and sets of resources) How is this different from any PC hiring some henchmen?
• Frenzy: Is this a weapon attack? Because if you are hitting multiple creatures this is normally a saving throw. Marasmusine (talk) 08:39, 30 October 2015 (MDT)

why hello i currently have someone attempting this class in my campaign i am nerfing it it is way OP so if you like what i make in my campaign i can transfer to here

I've moved around things, and balanced a few items, wikified some stuff, and corrected a little tidbits. Aside from archetypes, what other glaring issues are there? BigShotFancyMan (talk) 08:41, 5 October 2017 (MDT)

For reference, here is a list of things that need to be worked on or added to the class:

• adding a class description
• adding quick build to the class(along with longer questions on why you want to be a battlemage)
• d10 hit die(issues raised on the needsbalance template)
• What is a dragonchess?
• Unarmored defense should always include Dexterity and how is Strength related to defense
• Cantrips and spellcasting should look like that shown in the battle medic class
• Battle Casting breaks the rules of spellcasting,(you can not reduce the spellcasting time of a spell from an action to a bonus action and you may not cast more than one spell on the same turn) and needs to be removed/reworked
• Battle Points needs reworking(you gain way too many points back from a short rest at lower levels and too few from a long rest at higher levels. You could make the short and long rest separate and make the short rest scale and the long rest restore all battle points)
• Weapon Bond is not a unique feature with many other similar classes that have exact same main feature
• Spelled Blade is incredibly powerful, this should be moved to a much later level, there should be a spell slot limit to the spells you can store(for example 2 being 2 1st level spells) there is no need for the reaction re-imbuing, and you should be able to store more spells with this feature without adding a spelled blade improvement to the spell blade feature table
• Elemental Slash is too powerful at lower levels, with a rework to battle points it will be fine
• Summon allies, why is this even a thing? If you resurrect a friendly PC as a skelton/zombie they can not be revived... I would recommend this features removal
• Reflexes needs better wording
• Death Blow is incredibly powerful, needs a save DC, and needs to take half or no damage on save not a random reduction
• A ton of problems with the archetype features, I will be removing most of these for various reasons(most are broken or don't make sense) and rewording the few features that are left so that they make sense

That about sums up the class for now.--Blobby383b (talk) 19:22, 6 October 2017 (MDT)

Ranger has d10 and half spellcasting so not a balance issue.

dragonchess, unimportant but I am assuming a chess set with dragon pieces

I've seen str for unarmored before, maybe homebrew but even trying to justify, you're stronger to fight through the hits, you defend better with your sword or shield.

I'm assuming the description part, yes, skipped to address other issues.

Not a fan of separating short/long rest values. others might be though.

I think Battle Points are fine, just use short rests at higher levels to help get the points back but there wasn't too much using excessive points.

I think a lot of homebrews have some overlap

Storing spells at level 6, similar to Eldritch Knight, is incredibly powerful? I could give the reimbue is unnecessary. But I'm missing where the rest of the OP power is coming from.

Elemental slash, 15 battle points, costs 4 to get real value. I'd settle with it costing 5 points to get 3d6

it's part of the OP design intent. I didn't balance it, I left it. I don't rip away class features just because I don't like them, I try to keep most of what someone puts up.

darnit, I thought I worded reflexes really well. How would you make it better?

DCs are explained earlier in class feature description. It has one. can be changed to half damage no problem. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 23:35, 6 October 2017 (MDT)

HP is used for tanking attacks while your AC determines whether an attack misses hence the need for Dexterity

There are campaigns where you get next to no short rests(maybe 1), and I just wish for the Battle Points to actually be usable in those campaigns

It is storing any level spell that is broken, at 18th level you can store 7 5th level spells which is extremely broken, hence the need for a spell slot limit to the spells you can store(for example 2 being 2 1st level spells). To better balance the feature you could make it so you have 3, 6, then 10 spell slot level worth of spells.

Changing elemental slashes cost to 5 and 3d6 damage sounds great

The way the DC is calculated for Reflexes makes the effect hard to understand unless you read through the features several times and makes it vary wildly(enemy creature rolls a natural 1 or 20 and you have to beat that 1 or 20 for example). I would recommend setting the DC to a flat value, somewhere around the 13/14/15 range

You are correct, but the Death Blow feature fails to mention it.

There is also the problem of the class not being able to use battle points when they gain the feature at 2nd level.--Blobby383b (talk) 10:29, 8 October 2017 (MDT)

I know the difference between HP and AC, I'm just stating that if someone's fantasy is to use Str for unarmored so what? There's SRD for Con & Wis, and balanced homebrews for Int. One could flavor Cha bonus helps deters attackers from making impactful attacks with their charm granting increased AC. So, with that, why would Str be the only ability to not be allowed in a feature like this. I think the class is already beyond this point, but maybe something to keep in mind that with flavor text and balance things are allowed.

So rather than balance it, it's been completely removed? Are you sure you reworking with designer intent and not just making your own? Seems the bones of this class, are just gone lolI don't touch these classes to rework into my own idea, rather balance what is there. Sometimes you gotta remove a thing or two but abjured armor, elemental slash, reflexes, death strike, and battle points are all that's left. Seems like a lot after listing but I think the same amount of features have been removed (Fighting Style, Spell Bladed, Weapon Bond, Masters of Armor, and Summon Allies). I could see removing Summon Allies and Master of armor, but missing the harm of having a fighting style on martial class like other martial classes. Weapon bond didn't seem like a strong enough feature to worry about, and spell bladed is part of the classes identity. It's like taking spells from Eldritch Knight, which this closely has the feel of.

So far, Reflexes DC is untouched. I like the way it is designed. Your dodging someone's ability to attack, not an arbitrary number.

Overall, what you have is really good but seems to have lost some flavor from the OP (who hasn't stopped back?) post. I really like your rendition of this class and would love to work with it. I'm still new to the wiki so perhaps this is all okay to do and I'm the ones who's off base :p BigShotFancyMan (talk) 08:12, 9 October 2017 (MDT)

The idea of tanking a hit and not taking damage from your Strength just seems a bit weird to me, as it conceptually makes no sense that you just take no damage from an attack just because you are physically stronger. Also, the point of the abjured armor is that it is summoned and magical, so Dexterity and Intelligence work much better.

I turned master of armor into Protector, a feature that has much more utility over just +1 AC. I turned smite into bolt, a more balanced feature for an archetype. I reworked spelled blade and moved it to an archetype feature, I could potentially put it back so it is a class feature. Weapon Bond actually did nothing for the class, it's effect happens so rarely that is basically has no impact in or out of combat, and makes it so at 4th level you gain 2 features instead of 1. Having unarmored defense, cantrips, and fighting style at 1st level makes this class more powerful than other classes at 1st level, and fighting style being a generic 1st level feature, could be removed to help balance the class.

Instead of fighting style, the class gains battle points at 2nd level and needs a feature to use them, so it would be good to create a feature at 2nd level that uses the battle points to replace fighting style.

An anon created this class 2 years ago and has not been back since. Also, what specifically about the class has lost flavor? Is it because I moved a few features to the archetypes(but also greatly expanded them?)

Asking questions is always alright, and for most classes/pages that have balance problems, been broken for years, or don't make sense, it is usually better to rework the class and keep the core ideas and features. For other classes that have minor issues,(few features need balancing, almost completed, typos, ect.) a few correcting edits is all that is needed and we wouldn't be talking about what work still needs to be done to the class.--Blobby383b (talk) 09:02, 9 October 2017 (MDT)

Some great points, I think for me the spellbladed was fundamental to the class identity. I support working things into archtype but this one I thought should be base feature. I guess if someone ditched two years ago what’s it matter :/ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 15:56, 9 October 2017 (MDT)

You are probably right about spelled blade being core to the class's identity, so I am moving it back. Also, I want your opinion on a few other things about the class:

• Could change reflexes to use 3 battle points instead of short/long rest(it is ok either way, how does the change sound?)
• Any other thoughts or concerns on the classes features, archetypes, or description?--Blobby383b (talk) 19:10, 9 October 2017 (MDT)

Uh, that actually sounds like a really good idea: making Reflexes use Battle Points. On Wednesday, I'll take a more thorough look at. Ask my wife, I've always got comments haha :D BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:02, 10 October 2017 (MDT)

So I took a look at this and finally compared it too eldritch knight archetype. I'm going to bring this more in line with that class in terms of cantrips and spells known. Battlemage is seriously better than "ek", especially considering spell slots and spells available to learn. Other things, I really like the battlepoint regain mechaninc (basing short rest on int and long giving them all back, well played) An idea, big one too, I wanna throw out: bring spelled blade to level 2 and get rid of quick movement. My balance suggestion for this is "battlemages can use an action to cast a spell at its lowest level into a weapon by spending a number of battle points equal to the spell level. A weapon can have a number of spells in it equal to your Intelligence modifier. When you hit with a melee weapon attack, you may release a spell on your target. Only one spell may be released during an attack action."

At level 11, battlemage gets "improved spelled blade" or some other name (whatever works) and "when you use an attack action, you may cast a cantrip as a bonus action." this part might be too strong, it's a working idea is all. But I get that attacking and release a spell, then second attack, and then bonus action to cantrip is a lot of damage. I don't see an issue limiting it so that "when you attack and don't release a spell from your weapon, you may cast a cantrip as a bonus action" I'll wait on big idea but edit the other issues I mentioned. And my suggestion for bring spelled blade up to level 2 is so that you feel like a battle mage while playing. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:50, 12 October 2017 (MDT)

I forgot, abjured armor is very unimpressive. 1 hour duration? short and long rest required. this is the class's defense. What about at level 2, the battlemage can spend a battle point to increase the duration to 1 day? I have a feeling the counter to this will be 1 battlepoint for 1 hour but meh, its better than nothing. The class just needs defense for more than one encounter and I'm not sure how often the average group consciously decides to short rest. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 08:06, 12 October 2017 (MDT)

I like the balancing changes you made and also agree with your idea of moving spelled blade to 2nd level, and reworking it to the way you suggested above to make it feel like your a battlemage. Improved spell blade breaks the rules of spellcasting, (most cantrips take an action to cast, and as such arbitrarily making it a bonus action would break the action economy). I would recommended moving quick movement to 11th level as a substitute for now. Finally for abjured armor, I believe changing the duration to 4 hours, making it long rest only, and allowing a PC to recast it for 1 battle point works.--Blobby383b (talk) 10:30, 12 October 2017 (MDT)

On a side note, I reworked reflexes into a single effect instead of two but the class still needs a new 18th level feature to replace spelled blade improvement. Some ideas for the 18th level feature(and maybe 11th) include: immune to the effects of extreme hot and cold environments, moving through nonmagical difficult terrain costs you no extra movement, you gain advantage on Wisdom and Intelligence saving throws from magic, you get +1 to attack and damage rolls when you use your spelled blade, your spelled blade weapon attacks count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage, gain advantage on saving throws against being charmed or frightened, ect.--Blobby383b (talk) 11:05, 12 October 2017 (MDT)

I like reworked reflexes, flows better. Abjured armor, as long as it has recast potential, that's what matters imo. The way I see feats & features is they all break rules. Extra attack breaks the rule of one attack during attack action, action surge breaks action economy, metamagic feats break every spellcasting rule. I wouldn't say its arbitrary as it fits the theme of the class (SIMILIAR to eldritch knight getting a bonus attack when it casts a cantrip as an action) I saw the strength may suggestion though. I like the idea of difficult terrain not slowing the battlemage, would that and quick movement be balanced 11th level thing? and for 18th level, I'm stuck between the advantage on wisdom and intelligence save throws, but at 18th level, advantage on all saves, aka magic resistance, shouldn't be OP. Or the other one is advantage vs charm and frightened but again at level 18, I'd rather seen immune to charm & frightened and any other mind affecting things (enchantments/illusions) BigShotFancyMan (talk) 12:10, 12 October 2017 (MDT)

Some standard features like those you mentioned are allowed, but in most situation it is almost always a better design decision to not have features that break rules(feats are not acceptable features because of the various rules they break), so DM's don't have to make judgement calls on what or what not to allow(if a class breaks rules right and left is it really balanced?). Plus, in general allowing cantrips as bonus actions increase your damage output by an absurd amount, 6.5 additional damage per round(fire bolt) at 1st level is not balanced, and the scaling of cantrips only makes it worse. Adding difficult terrain not slowing your PC to Quick Movement is fine since using the actions costs battle points, which you want to use for other features. I think having the immunity to the charmed and frightened conditions and other mind altering effects works better for the 18th level feature.--Blobby383b (talk) 13:45, 12 October 2017 (MDT)

I think classes that break rules left and right are still balanced. I only have fighter at my finger tips but the additional ASI, rerolling failed saving throws, action surges, second wind, and fighting style, extra attack break the rules. That's 10 levels of rule breaking not including things that archetypes do, but its balanced.

I'll concede a bonus action higher-level cantrip is really strong. I would try to balance it by making it casted at its lowest level, 1, for things to work "fairly" and keep flavor. To clarify, cantrips wouldn't have been casted as a bonus action at level 1, it was intended feature for level 11. Good job with quick movement text, I like it a lot. 5e doesn't include the "mind-affecting" descriptor on spells like 3.5 did, so it has to be defined what mind affecting is. Comparing to a fighter's indomitable feature, I suggest it being 1 battle point to reroll a failed saving throw against enchantments and illusions, with advantage. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 06:36, 13 October 2017 (MDT)

I guess there is some difference in opinion, I believe many of the free expansions by WOTC are balanced(some are not UA I am looking at you) and break several rules, but are not standard since it is hard to determine their balance, and if you did it would be akin to cherry picking expansions or parts of them that are balanced. Since the fighter's features and several other PHB class's features that break rules are balanced, you can base the power level of a feature akin to them. While if there is nothing to base breaking a rule off of, or if the rule is broken in an expansion's feature but the expansion/class is not balanced, it is harder to gauge a feature's power level, but not impossible.

Enough of that though, I mostly agree on the point you are making anyway when I said some standard features. How does the current version of Magic Mind look to you? It is weaker than what you mentioned, re-rolling with advantage, but still accomplishes the goal.--Blobby383b (talk) 10:52, 13 October 2017 (MDT)

I saw MagicMind and said awesome. I can't think of anyfixes for the base class now. looks good. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 18:47, 13 October 2017 (MDT)

That sounds good, it was interesting listening to your opinion on the class and a bunch of other things in general. Besides that, I am thankful for the constant helpful reviews and work done to improve the class, but I need a break from this class for now.--Blobby383b (talk) 20:45, 13 October 2017 (MDT)

Hey! I finally looked over this and our discussion. Battlemage is still in a good place. Of the three I got asked to visit, I think this one be my favorite. Well done keeping up on this article to ensure its integrity and kudos to some other helping its grammar.   ~BigShotFancyMan   talk   07:51, 6 September 2019 (MDT)

Dim Light/Darkness vs No Sunlight

I like the previous as though are terms used through out the book to notate different. I think its easy to ask if you are in sunlight, but the verbiage isn't consistent with what terms are used. Food for thought, should work either way. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 08:21, 20 December 2017 (MST)

A quick playtest of light based features shows that they are impossible to manage in the theatre of the mind, hard to manage with pen and paper as it is just another thing you need to keep track of, and easy to manage online with many sites doing lighting automatically for you. I prefer the old version as well, but I believe the changed version is much easier to manage in most situations. Besides that, do you have any other thoughts on the manner?--Blobby383b (talk) 09:06, 20 December 2017 (MST)

I can see a paradox existing where its dusk. You're in sunlight but it is dim out. Or an overcast day is sun lit but not in dim light. I think the phrasing of dim light is important for these dual circumstances. A DM can simply say, no dim light and it is known whether a bonus (stealth) applies or not. Is it all just semantics? also, the current change states in direct sunlight. The bonus has changed from not being in light to being in light. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 09:23, 20 December 2017 (MST)

I did forget to add not to the feature. As for what counts as sunlight, the issue comes up with the Drow race as well with sunlight sensitivity. I have read many things DM's making different calls about what does or doesn't count as sunlight. Some say dim light from any source of sunlight (dusk or cloudy) still counts as being in sunlight. Others say as long as you are not directly in sunlight, and if you are wearing a mask/other things it doesn't count as well. So what even counts as direct sunlight is ambiguous.

I will be changing the feature back to what is was previously as I prefer the previous version as well, and it seems to be more in line with a shadowy knight type.--Blobby383b (talk) 16:37, 20 December 2017 (MST)

I couldn't agree more about the ambiguity. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 06:46, 21 December 2017 (MST)

Duration clarification on "Combat Style: Warlord: Spell Shield"

Hi! Thanks for this class, I'm currently playing it.

Question about the Spell Shield:

How long do the temporary hit points last? Up until your next turn? Or only during that brief reaction?

Needs clarification in the text. Right now it states:

Spell Shield [1]

By 3rd level, you have gained resistance to some magical effects. When you are targeted by a spell that has a saving throw or deals damage, you gain temporary hit points equal to three times the spell slot level used to cast the spell.

Cheers! Vadruk – 15 February 2018, 10:34 (GMT+1)

Hey Vadruk thanks for checking out the class. Unless otherwise stated, temporary hit points last until you finish a long rest.

Also for future reference, above the editing box next to the black bar there is a button to automatically allows you to sign your posts.--Blobby383b (talk) 02:58, 15 February 2018 (MST)

Thanks for the clarifications! I'm assuming they don't stack, in case the PC gets targeted by a spell multiple times?

--Vadruk (talk) 03:06, 15 February 2018 (MST)

Yep they do not stack, the new instance can only replace the old one, you can see more info on it by clicking temporary hit points.--Blobby383b (talk) 03:10, 15 February 2018 (MST)

Yeah, I somehow missed that link. Thank you, that helps a lot. --Vadruk (talk) 03:20, 15 February 2018 (MST)

Arcane Knighthood battle style clarification

How does the level 3 ability work? Do you need to have knights of your order around fo you suddenly summon them? What allows the roll with advantage?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 2607:fb90:324b:ac78:dc5c:bf8c:3cd7:8586 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

You don't necessarily have to have others in your order, the subclass just focuses on enhancement through magic(ie using magic to correct your mistakes in this case) and belonging to a knighthood is mostly flavor. Looking back at it though, I am not a fan of the current version of Arcane Knighthood feature and may end up changing it.--Blobby383b (talk) 15:21, 13 August 2019 (MDT)