Talk:Atronarch (5e Class)

I would have fixed all of the formatting issues myself, but I do not know what went wrong or how to fix it, and not enough time to figure that out. Good concept, though. Tazerbot3000 (talk) 11:47, 15 January 2020 (MST)

Complete Version

Hello The is Sir Matthious the original creator of this class and its concept. As of December 1st I have created and more or less finalized the Atronarch concept and it is ready for full use with six sub classes with testing. I would love feed back and further test notes so please give notes.

I would have it noted that the battle point costs and values are equal to the spell point alternatives for all magic classes and so the point equals is the same for all classes. this class is best in magic heavy worlds or teams but makes surviving as a player much harder in low magic worlds.

Each subclass plays very different and it is fine to play with out a subclass as well for different and unique experiences, it is recommended that you let the atronarch players act through combat and make them struggle through every thing else and force them to rely on their party for even the most basic things.

This power contrast makes them fell very different from fighters and makes them feel appreciative of their support characters such as rangers, wizards and clerics, note that different subclass mix better with different team combos.

A cleric and druid heavy team should have combat medic and a sorcerer and wizard heavy team would dominate with a devastator, mean while melee focused teams could have a templar to stop AOE and a DPS team could use an Asgardian to counter immunities. and diverse parties could always use a vanguard to take the damage that no one else can.

Note that above all else do not allow your players to farm Battle Points with out cost, such as draining magic from a magic item may give them some points but it will destroy the magical item, that said framing them as magical addicts and giving them debuffs if they go too long with out magic is also not a bad idea as it is great for roleplaying.

It should be noted that the fact they can cast an unlimited number of spells is intentional and balanced due to the fact that they have no means to cast any spells until after combat has started or with some other means of outside help and that they will on average cast less spells than any other class under almost any conditions.

Needs balance

Sooo, starting from top:

• I am writing this as author makes changes, so not all can be exactly on point. But I will try nonetheless hit a nail in problems this class has. And this is not a short list.
• wording on this one is questionable in some places
• many formatting issues here and there, use bullet points, bold and the like. Right now this is somewhat hard to read
• dead levels, like 5th and 15th, which are straight up empty
• you don't usually gain main class features, and subclass features at the same time
• 'the fact they can cast an unlimited number of spells is intentional and balanced due to the fact that they have no means to cast any spells until after combat has started or with some other means of outside help and that they will on average cast less spells than any other class under almost any conditions' <-- this. This is a lie. This will never be balanced. This will never be true. Ever. Why? Here is a tour through this class' abilities.
• Hit points and proficiency: a full caster with d10 and proficiency in all armor and weapons.
• starting wealth: 6d6x10 is high, higher than any class have. This is a trend in this class features.
• Atronarchy: As written, this feature alone is a inbalanced disaster. 2 levels in warlock and one invocation is all it takes to remove an only try of balancing this feature. On one side you will not gain any points whatsoever, so your class' main feature is nonexistent, on the flip side this is an unlimited cheese factory. Example? Cast a shield on yourself. It costs two battle point. You are a target of a 1-st level spell. You gain one battle point. Be a target of healing spell, gain battle points. Be a warlock with spammable invocation. But it can get worse. Really worse. Also, straight stating there is no limit in points you can accumulate is - let's be honest here - a game balancing mistake. It should never happen. // also, short rest as a bonus action is straight wrong. And no class feature should punish you for having it, when this is(long rest thing), and no class should punish you for playing it(although PHB monk is close to that), and this class is trying to do that with rest mechanic.
• Atronarch Spell Casting Spell List: The rest of Atronarchy feature. As above, unlimited spellcasting is never going to be balanced. In one world, you will not get spellcasters in your team, you yourself will not multiclass into one, world itself will be low-magic = Almost your entire class is nonexistent. Reverse assumptions I gave and you are an unstoppable machine of world destruction, capable of casting wish left and right at around level 1. It is simply, and sadly, not balanced in D&D 5e. Imagine wizard being able to exchange low level spells for casting 8th and 9th level ones. Over and over again.
• Augmented Armor - shield of faith have a duration of one minute and cost concentration for a reason, bladesinging have a duration of one minute and applies only if you wear light armor for a reason. With this you have a highest ac among all base clases, basically always, while still being a full caster and a full martial class. Also feats are optional, so nothing in a class features should ever reference them or be dependant on them.
• Arcane Martial Style: subclasses. Later.
• 5th level- dead level
• Multiattack - unconventionally at 6th level, for no apparent reason, as a full caster; also subclass feature
• Elemental Slash - kind of like a smite, but usage is worse(you must decide before making an attack, if you miss you lose some of your unlimited resources, so no big deal), and number on this are weird - the more you spend, the bigger the die is, and the more dice you spend. So +14d10 at 7th level. Actually not a bad ability as an idea, but dependant on terribly wrong base feature, so either you will never use this, becuse you do not have points, or you will never use this, because comparably spells at the levels similar to the cost are almost always worth it more. Or you are cheesing the world and have +7d10 on each attack from now on.
• Magic Mind - Immunity to one debilitating condition is relatively strong, usually gained as a high level subclass feature. Here you gain three, at level 9. Also you gain limited immunity for other two, induced from spells. And advantage in saves against two schools of magic, at the DM's discretion even more, or not, depends. This is ridicolously overpowered, literally nothing wizards made can compete with this, even more so at this level.
• 11th level - dead level, again
• Magically Enhanced Charge: This is not a button to never get any opportunity attacks from nothing ever at a measly cost. This is get out of jail card, straight up from monopoly, to cast, once again, almost never or at will. Possibilities are numerous, and cost is nonexistent.
• 15th level - dead level, again, again
• Magically Enhanced Reflexes - Once more, nothing, or a permanent disadvantage on all attack rolla agianst you. Also, multiple more attacks as, quote:"This does not cost a reaction and may be done an infinite number of times a round[...]", every one with +7d10(or nothing, bc, you know). There is a reason for a limited number of reactions in dnd, also a reason for not handling free use stuff left and right.
• Enduring Atronarchy: 0/2 = 0, or ∞/2 = ∞, so nothing new here. Plus a full team health recovery card against any and all enemies once per long rest, no cost. Wait, not once, you can go again. and again. and again. Remember, we are getting 9 war points every time this happens, bc we are a target of a 9th level spells. And an additional little touch that gives you, your co-players and your GM no doubt that you do not need them for anything while playing this class.

• • Subclasses(as a whole):
• Asgardian - free damage absorption at 3rd level,(funny, you will never gain war points from this, here called battle points for some reason, bc you are immune to that damage type, so you do not take damage); 10ft prof bonus*d4 damage that is always on, and going through resistance and reducing immunity to resistance; now d6*prof and dice increase on your chosen damage; even more free damage; and storm of vengence with benefits(regeneration of points, bc you are being targetet by it, flight for 360 ft and more) once every moon cycle. Sigh
• Combat Medic - duplicating spells and healing for next to no cost(or never, depends how you define positive effect); you can learn cleric spells, bc infinite healing is a thing in D&D 5e; full healing on short rest, and like a short rest again; infinite sactions and reactions against unconcious creatures(don't get me started for ridicolous implications of these), also, IN DND 5e THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A FREE ACTION(sorry, at this point I give up with serious approach to this class); and infinite points again, just grapple unconscious creature, let them go, rince and repeat. Sigh
• Devastator - more points; literally nothing, bc you can already cast a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action in place of your attacks; unavoidable extra damage on every spell; Damage changing(that one is pretty solid) and, my god, spell save attribute changing; and literally nothing, bc you can already cast a spell with a casting time of 1 action in place of your attacks; sigh
• Illithion - Even more points and free blindsight; the best martial weapon in the game; Even more points equal to psychic damage taken; Immune to effect means something is immune to effect, no ignoring immunity to charmed condition, and unlimited, every turn(as written) cahnce to charm an aberration. Forever; and creating permanent army of aberrations. and another wy for infinite points;
• Templar - infinite damage, plain and simple; Actually a cool defender ability to decrease damage from spell, and bonus action silence; more infinite damage, provided you counter spell someone; Yet another infinite loophole for regaining hit die, and gaining infinite saving throws; and finally one more infinity, this time with counterspell, with increased range, and always, no matter what;
• Vanguard - Even more points, from certain level free halving damage; okay, this one I think is really interesting, I myself homebrewed something similar, but on the flip side, this one feels underwhelming; Ignore resistances for free for everything, also ignore immunities; changing how critical hits works, bunch of free, unconditional stuff to "physicality" of character; even more damage and, possibly points;

• • Multiclassing: even this done wrong, you cannot lose proficiencies from multiclassing, like, man, you forget how to shoot a bow? and once again, feats are optional, so nothing in a class features should reference them or be dependant on them.

So, to sum up: this is unusable in any game, at any table, in any world, under any circumstances, unless you just want to do random stuff or break a game. It is written poorly. This is a very good martial with full spellcater, which in and out of itself is a no go, beside a very specific cases. It is not that case hoever, tis comepletely broken, even without one point gained throught campaign some subclasses give unreal features. "Almost"(quote on that) no feature is in any way balanced, many are not thought through. Many are just a "cool idea", just thrown into it without care in the world. Class have a multitude of infinite, and stacking, mechanics. Class breaks multitude of common rules for class creation. Class breaks multitude of rules for dnd 5e overall! Why does this even NOT have a work in progress, or incomplete and/or lacking flavor meta pages, needsbalance be damned?! It is clearly not ready to be played anywhere. Original creator and main contributor tries to reason why this is good and all, but at this point in time, this class is a wreck, and no sane GM will ever allow it. Also, it is not GM job to 'not allow' players to farm battle points. Description of features is for a reason. I suggest reading through this -an automatically added link to every new class' page, official on this site btw.- Class design guide before making a class, because clearly, clearly author have not done this.

Right now, I am marking this as a needsbalance and stub, bc this is the minimum this class needs. I am open and very willing to provide help in regard of reworking and balancing this, because concept at least sounds appealing. But let's be clear on one thing: Infinity does not work in dnd, and a literal rework of basic class abilities is needed. --Cezaryx (talk) 06:10, 4 January 2022 (MST)

Updated Version

An updated Version is up and ready for critique with almost every thing having been reworked and only a few thing remaining the same, biggest changes revolve level progression and rule clarification, many abilities have been weakened as some of the most obvious mechanic bugs have ben fixed. However I would appreciate name ideas for the class as a whole or something to rename Battle Points to. --Sir Matthious (talk) 16:49, 25 January 2022 (MST)