Talk:Angel Disciple (3.5e Prestige Class)

31st December Edits

The changes made in the last day to the class seem unneeded. I will examine them piece by piece for fairness though.

First off: as I understand it this class was supposed to be similar to Dragon Disciple, i.e. you are progressing towards eventually being very like what you are the disciple of, in this case that's an angel. Angels are Outsiders of the good subtype. With a universal resistance to fire and electricity 10, 60ft Darkvision, Low-Light Vision, Immunity to acid, cold, and petrification, the Protective Aura thing, +4 racial bonus on saves against poison, Tounges, and various other abilities based their type. Thus many of the changes made don't follow given that reasoning.

Hit die from d8 to d10: Why did the hit die change from being straight up Outsider dice? It wasn't really needed.

Changing Resistances to Immunities: Gaining immunity to fire also doesn't make sense for the class. Angels, be they Astral Devas, Planetars, or Solars, never gain immunity to fire. They max out at resistance 10 and thus, as the class is trying to make you more and more like an angel, getting immunities again... don't make any sense.

Angelic Resistances: Seeing as the class can be gotten into as early as 6th level being able to get DR 10/evil at 7th level creates problems for game balance. It does make sense to get a progression of DR that ends at 10/evil but getting it at second level of the class is too much. I suggest simply getting an additional point of DR per class level maxing at 10 by the end of the class' progression.

Aura of Menace: Changing the DC calculation from standard calculation to something different... Why?

Angelic Gift: meh, getting one at every odd level isn't bad.

If one wishes to modify the class that is their purview, however going into the location of the class' base existence and changing it to something that better fits their campaign setting is irresponsible. One can just as easily add variants to the bottom of the page or create a page for the modified version.

It is for the reasons above that I am going to revert the page to its form before the edits made on 31st December 2010 Ringadon 03:45, 31 December 2010 (CST)

Bonus Spells are Useless

Just like Dragon Disciple, the class might as well not have bonus spells because you don't advance spellcasting at all. Surgo 08:50, 23 November 2008 (MST)

Commentary

It's a nice thought, but I'd have to make these points:

• Work on the ability names. The current names are pretty bland. Take a look at Celestial Beacon in the PrC section for some of the tone. Suggestions:

Fires of Heaven (instead of Angelic resistances). "The Angelic Disciple has something of the celestial flames in him, and thereafter the common mortal forms are unwilling to touch him."

Radiance of the Deva: (Instead of Angelic DR).

Purity of Body (Instead of poison resistance). "The Angelic Disciple's physical transformation progresses further, and on a deeper level than previously. His blood turns golden, and poisons and diseases have trouble taking root in him." (Oh, by the way...+1 every couple of levels? At least make it +2.)

• Three angelic gifts? Not bad. There's a definite power disparity between a lot of them, though. Aura of Menace...or Natural Armor? gee, I wonder what I'll take...

• Darkvision out to 60 feet is not a great ability at Character Level 10th. Low-Light Vision isn't that great at any time. Suggestion: Virtuous Eye: The Angelic Disciple gains Lowlight Vision and Darkvision out to 60 feet. Also, distance penalties for Spot checks are divided by 2. The Angelic Disciple's irises turn gold/silver/purple/orange/color of your choice--" At first level. Actually, come to think of it, you're probably playing as an Aasimar or something for this, so you ALREADY HAVE Darkvision.

• Several of the transformation stages could boil down to some ability like "Angelic Seed" or whatever, and let you advance a few things at once.

• You don't advance casting, so you may well just hand out some spell-like abilities. I'm partial to Detect Magic, Detect Evil, Bull's Strength, and a grab-bag from the Astral Deva spell-like abilities a few times a day each. Although Detect Magic/Evil could be at-will.

• The cap ability...Well, I see people still think that a character never dying of old age is somehow too powerful. Just go ahead and say they do not gain further age penalties, continue gaining the mental bonuses, and won't die of old age. Maybe throw in something about when they decide they've been long enough in the world, they can go to a Good-Aligned plane to enjoy equal standing and duties with the other celestials.

It's a cool class by its very nature. But it needs some more flavor and the abilities could be shuffled around and given a tune-up. Genowhirl 11:47, 23 November 2008 (MST)

Why require divine spellcasting? Surely there are really, really Good Wizards and Bards and the like out there. I'm sure the Upper Planes have their eye on more good people than those who happen to pray for their spells, why are the others being excluded? Heck, why require spellcasting at all, since this class doesn't advance it? -- Genowhirl 18:24, 23 November 2008 (MST)

Thanks. I am getting around to this eventually again, but a combo of unstable servers and Black Friday will man I'll be a bit slow on it. In any case, your questions...

Ability names. I like yours better, I'm stealing them.

The +4 poison thing was just me adding stuff from 'typical angel traits' as described. I suppose I could add more, it's not really a big thing, fluffing levels mostly.

I was debating that too about power level. I was considering bumping natural armor to +2 per level, +6 at the end of a class is not bad. It's better than the Improved Natural Armor feat.

I will collapse Low-Light and Darkvision to 1st level when I get to it.

I don't understand what you meant by "Angelic Seed".

The SLAs, yes. I was considering them but listing all of them seemed too long. Limiting it to Good only spells seemed to restrictive. So for the moment I let it stretch to "non-evil".

....huh, as for the cap I swore I changed it to being just as monk (timeless body, no aging but you still die). I'll check for errors.

As for why divine spellcasting and bonus spells? Direct rip of Dragon Disciple. Personally I don't mind it's bonus spell ability, even if it IS weaksauce. Do you think I should ditch any semblance of spell giving and go right for more powers? I'd probably keep the divine casting so you have a 'connection' to the powers of good you're supposed to, and thus a reason to transform, same as DD's arcane blood (sorcery/bards) and the Green Star Adept (magic needed to transmute yourself). The alternative, add an Exalted feat requirement, but that may be too restrictive. -- Eiji 19:49, 24 November 2008 (MST)

Well, I'd really just add a "Must be Good" requirement, and then have a special requirement: "Must have performed a deed that earned the acknowledgement and respect of an angel"...or an Exalted Feat. As for 'Angelic Seed,' I forgot what the theme was, but I'd rework the transformation names to some theme; I'm kinda partial to something about the identity--blood, body, bone, soul, mind, self, etc. I'll jot down some ideas for this and see what comes up...

As for advancing spellcasting, I'd really let them choose set groups of spell-like abilities as Angelic Gifts and tag cool names on them...Let's see...

• Trial of the Soul: The Angel Disciple gains detect evil discern lies, zone of truth, and see invisibility as spell-like abilities at will
• Touch of Vitality: The Angel Disciple gains cure light wounds as a spell-like ability 7/day, remove curse and remove disease at-will, and heal 1/day.
• Guardian of Souls: The Angel Disciple gains protection from evil at-will and holy aura 3/day as spell-like abilities.
• Soldier of God: Gain holy smite and blade barrier (or maybe flamestrike...) as spell-like abilities 3/day.

All of the spell-like abilities have a caster level equal to character level. Genowhirl 10:41, 25 November 2008 (MST)

December 12th Edits by 76.192.148.87

I undid the edits made by this guy, he changed the saves so they didn't make sense (They were neither High nor Low and ended at +6) and changed Low-Light Vision to Superior Low-Light Vision. --TK-Squared 16:55, 15 December 2008 (MST)

Rating

Power - 4.25/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it does have a decent stable of defensive abilities, but it seems a little counter-intuitive in ways. The real strength of the class is in the great saves and full BAB, and the class abilities (obviously), but these seem a little off when it grants a little bit of bonus magic and has a magical entry requirement. I mean, if I were a cleric I think I would prefer spellcasting, and if I were a melee-type I'm not sure I'd want to take just one level in cleric. The only logical course from here is to assume the class is an addition to the paladin, since it's not like their spellcasting offers them much anyway. So, with that in mind, I gave it a 4. You don't really get enough feats to take full advantage of the great set of wings you get (since everything including tying your shoe seems to need a feat in the current state of affairs), and in conjunction with your need of feats for melee abilities that hurts a little bit. Although I said I thought this class was designed for paladins, and I think giving it +1 caster level every other level might just make up the difference. I don't know if that's too much for you, but I think it would add a little more offense with a little more versatility better than the bonus spell system you currently have worked out. I guess I just see this class mostly as a survivor now, and surviving is nice, but killing stuff is rather important, too, and often more important than defense 3.5e combat. Actually, I just noticed the vast array of skill points the class receives, and while the selection is a little limited, I'll bump it from a 4 to a 4.25. I don't know if the +1 caster levels I mentioned earlier would still apply to the same extent now, but I personally don't see the class becoming overpowered would such a suggestion by implemented (and you could do less than five levels, too, or tone down the skill points, or some combination of things). -- Jota 14:09, 8 August 2009 (MDT)

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because everything that is written is worded concisely and clearly, and while there are a few tiny English errors, it seems more expedient to correct those myself rather than point out the miniscule errors where they occur, since there are so few of them. -- Jota 14:09, 8 August 2009 (MDT)

Formatting - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because "well formatted but not linked" seems to describe this page quite well. It's also missing an NPC (but they take too much effort to be worth it in most cases), but that can be the final 0.5 once the class is linked. --Jota 14:09, 8 August 2009 (MDT)

Flavor - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because while the concept is hardly original and the flavor text is a bit on the skimpy side, it's abilities are nice, the sections are there, and it is for the most part self-explanatory. -- Jota 14:09, 8 August 2009 (MDT)

Rating

Power - <<<5>>>/5 I give this class a <<<4>>> out of 5 because <<<insert why you gave the rating and how to improve it>>> --74.220.233.58 12:13, 2 December 2009 (MST)

Wording - <<<5>>>/5 I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<insert why you gave the rating and how to improve it>>> --74.220.233.58 12:13, 2 December 2009 (MST)

Formatting - <<<5>>>/5 I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<insert why you gave the rating and how to improve it>>> --74.220.233.58 12:13, 2 December 2009 (MST)

Flavor - <<<5>>>/5 I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<insert why you gave the rating and how to improve it>>> --74.220.233.58 12:13, 2 December 2009 (MST)

Rating

Power - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it is quite well done and balanced i would suggest dropping the base attack to 7 at lvl 10 instead of 10 and give +lvl of spell casting every 2nd or 3rd lvl rather than bonus spell slots.

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is worded well and isnt confusing in any way

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is done correctly like an official product

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it looks very fun to play and is great for roleplaying purposes brilliant idea that could easily fit into most campaigns

Rating

Power - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because, depending on what the "Bonus Spells" referred to (see below), I would give it either a 3 or a 5. --SaturnUndead (talk) 17:11, 6 February 2013 (MST)

Wording - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because I couldn't tell if the "Bonus Spells" referred to "... total" or "... per Spell Level already available." --SaturnUndead (talk) 17:11, 6 February 2013 (MST)

Formatting - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because the charts, lists, and paragraphs were generally understandable (with one exception, see above) --SaturnUndead (talk) 17:11, 6 February 2013 (MST)

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it seems like a really good counter-point to Liches and Dragon Disciples --SaturnUndead (talk) 17:11, 6 February 2013 (MST)