Talk:American Football (3.5e Other)

I don't get it. Why do we need D&D-based rules for football? And the rules that are there are kinda... wonky. JazzMan 03:56, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Some of the rules could work with a bit of going through. However one big problem is the DC for throwing range. I can throw a football over 40 yards, this would be a DC of 40 using your rules, which my 'character' self could never make. Granted I am good at football and very strong for my age, these rules are still poor. It should also be a dexterity check as well because, I can throw far but could never be a quarterback because my aim is bad. Just a few thoughts. --Vrail 04:08, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Responding to both of your questions in order: I made it because I can. Seriously, we have rules for archery contests, wrestling, and gladiator matches, all of which are sports, so why not Football? It might be some fun downtime for the PC's when suddenly the Dwarf Fighter joins in with the Ysgard Warriors, or the Arborean Falcons, or something along those lines. PokeDM 14:21, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

As for the rules, I made this up at 10:00 at night. I was a little fried at the time, so naturally, I'm off my game. If you see rules that need improving, by all means, go ahead. PokeDM 14:21, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I would just like to add, seeing as this probably wasn't apparent in my last comment, that I do like this idea. Not only for the reasons already listed, but because it is a physically challenging game were many injuries occur. Much like many of the other more violent games of the time period. It just seems like it would fit well into D&D.

Actually, on that note, have you ever thought of adding experience gains to football? You are physically exerting yourself to your full and basically grappling and fighting opponents on the field. I think it would work well to add in an experience component to the rules. --Vrail 14:35, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Would you be ok if I went through the D&D rules for football and changed a few things when I find them? You can always undo my edits if you don't like the changes. :) --Vrail 14:39, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Go for it. I was pretty much thinking that experience would be the same as achievements (I.E, winning a game would give you X amount of EXP based on the Effective Challenge Rating of the opposing team). If you have other ideas that could be useful, feel free to add them. PokeDM 16:29, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm a little late in responding, but "because I can" is NOT a valid reason to keep this here, and it never will be. You can do all you want with the D&D framework, but the fact that something uses the D&D framework is not, in itself, enough of a reason to justify putting it on the wiki. Archery contests, wrestling, and gladiator matches fit the genre of D&D. American Football, especially since "America" doesn't even exist in D&D, does not fit, period. If you have to keep it, it needs some serious flavor reworking. 21:19, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, I can't just call it Football. That title belongs to Soccer. No lie. PokeDM 23:29, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Unless WotC is an American company, in which case I'll change the title to Football. PokeDM 23:29, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Also, in a magic-oriented world of fantasy that you make up, as DM you can literally do whatever you want to. It's BORING if your PC's are just browsing the marketplace looking for some generic flaming sword that they can get anywhere else. With this, you can earn experience points, it's *relatively* safe, and you can still keep the action going while giving the whole place an air of just having fun. PokeDM 23:37, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Would you be open to making it less "Football" and more "Sports"? What I'm saying is rather than make it a elaborate system for football, make a system of dozens of DCs. DMs can then make up their own games, which may be based on real sports, or fake ones. In short, drop football rules and make rules for catching, kicking, throwing, running, pulling, etc. This just seems like a very limited use item, whereas "sports" would be much more common. --Badger 23:52, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I actually wasn't going to stop with Football. Up next in Sports: Basketball, Hockey, Waterpolo (oh god that'll be scary), and (my favorite): WWE. I was gonna organize it all in my own Homebrew book, but I have NO IDEA what to call it. I've considered "A Book of Plays," "The Athlete's Handbook," and "Complete Recreational." PokeDM 00:15, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Ok here's the thing. If you are going to make D&D versions of football, basketball, etc, then by all means do so. What you need to do is say "if <sport> had existed in fantastical medieval times, what would it be like?" What would be the same, and what would differ? For example, where do spellcasters fit in? How did these games start? What would an "end zone" and "quarterback" be called? What races favor which sport? Is "football player" a class or a skill or a feat? This is the game your bored sword-buying barbarian would be playing, not American Football.

But if you are just going to create these sports using D&D rules, as you have done so far with this article, then they belong in a sandbox in your userspace, not in the main space. JazzMan 00:27, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

As far as races and classes, it really depends on the kind of sport, or even which game it is. Basketball, for example, would be favored by Elves as a race (it requires good coordination and fast reflexes, which elves traditionally have) and it would be favored by Rogues, Swashbucklers, Monks, Ninjas and other dexterity-based classes for the same reason. Football is associated with strength, so characters such as Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins, and other classes with an emphasis on strength would fit in here. So, Dwarves, Orcs, and Giants would do well in this field. Wizards and other Spellcasters would probably prefer something more passive, since moving fast and hitting people isn't something they do. Likewise, Gnomes and Halflings don't fit into the above two categories, so the best choice for these characters would be Golf, Baseball, or Ping Pong. PokeDM 00:48, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually those were largely rhetorical questions, but at least we've gotten the ball rolling (pun VERY intended). Do you get what needs to be done on this page? JazzMan 01:13, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

I get the impression a gnome wizard who can cast mirror image would be very good at just about any team sport. Likewise, a spellcaster with invisibility and haste and slow could do very well for himself. How will this be taken into account? --Badger 01:16, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Obviously, it'd be the D&D-equivalent of steroids. Think about this, though. When you're fighting an opposing team, and one of those people happens to be a Wizard/Sorcerer/*insert magic guy here*, do you go for the guys that are ripping one guy to shreds with their swords, or the guy who's blowing half of your entire group to kingdom come with a variety of really scary spells but lacks HP? Hmmm... I think the answer's pretty obvious. A spell caster would get ANNIHILATED out there. Granted, he could have other benefits (buffing up the guys in the game), but when it all comes down to it, your potent mage or cleric suddenly becomes your equipment manager. PokeDM 02:28, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

And I THINK I see what needs to be done. I need to come up with better descriptions of the different positions in different games. Would an archetype be okay? (I.E: A good quarterback would be an Ogre Barbarian, a good Defensive End would be a Dwarven Defender with Improved Bull Rush, etc?) PokeDM 02:28, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

How about I do a mock-up of what I'm talking about it. You don't have to use any of it at all, but it'll make what I'm trying to say much more clear. Unfortunately I can't do it right now so it will have to be a little later. JazzMan 02:45, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

That would be very useful. I can be hard-headed when being told what to do, but being shown what to do makes it ten times easier for me to understand.PokeDM 12:06, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

About magic, I think it would actually work fairly well in most sports formated into D&D. Just simply have specific rules that apply to them such as: Wizards must be reachable by other players (i.e stay on the ground, visible, and have no force fields around them), and they cannot use magic to directly effect opposing players. Or if you have a really strict referee then perhaps the magic users are given a specific list of spells usable in the game. --Vrail 14:23, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

See here. The version I came with basically doesn't have any spellcasting, but it refers to other sports which grew up with relatively little martial power. I was reminded last night of Quidditch: in a fantasy world, sports would not evolve the same way our mundane sports have. JazzMan 16:49, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

I think they would have evolved based on the different cultures and upbringings. By their nature, wizards and clerics are nerds, and sorcerers and bards are the bad-ass nonconformist crowd, both of whom would really focus more on knowledge as power rather than brute force and speed as power, so naturally they would be playing an intellectual game rather than a physical game. They might even play D&D in D&D. Meanwhile, Monks, Rangers and Rogues would be the kind of people who move as fast as all get-out and weave in combat, so sports such as Basketball, Cross-Country, and Track/Field would be their forte. Fighters, Barbarians, and Paladins are the sort who go in and do some serious damage, thus, Wrestling, Football, and Hockey would be their bread and butter. Druids and Rangers fit in among the natural world, so their sports would involve trees and the like. Games like Capture the Flag would definitely be a choice for them, since they move so swiftly through undergrowth and can also control it, making it easy for their team and hard for the others. Competitive Hunting is also a prime choice for Rangers especially, since this could tie in with their favored enemy ability. PokeDM 01:50, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

And the more I look at this, the more I start to think that this stuff would make a great Pre-adventurer setting. Rather than being the heroes of today, these could be future heroes, growing up and playing different games that would help them later in life. Like what different baby animals do with their litter-mates (that rough-housing helps them develop skills that will be useful for bringing down prey).PokeDM 01:50, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

That's not really what I was saying. You are taking fantasy concepts and forcing them into modern concepts, while I'm asking what would happen if the modern concepts were reinvented with a fantasy mindset. Just lumping the classes together with modern day sports doesn't get us anywhere. Some nerds like football, some jocks play D&D; even in the real world your class divisions break down. What I'm saying is not "what sport would a wizard play?" but rather "what sport would a wizard invent? JazzMan 03:16, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

If this is going to be part of a larger work, you should keep this under your personal namespace until it's all finished. Basically, if you're planning to make a book of several sports with DnD rules you should make a "sandbox" page. If you're planning to name the book "The Complete Athlete" you would want to make a page called User:PokeDM/The_Complete_Athlete and then make sub pages for each sport by makes pages like User:PokeDM/The_Complete_Athlete/American_Football. Then, once you're finished with everything you can move everything out into the main namespace, out from your user page. This helps reduce clutter and help keep us from having half-finished ideas in the main area. If you need any help moving this let me know, I'm more than willing to show you how to get it done. --Badger 04:10, 7 June 2010 (UTC)