Talk:Aberrant Summoner (5e Class)
Hey! Thank you for checking out the Aberrant Summoner class, I hope you liked it, or at least gleamed a few ideas for yourself. As I'm sure you might notice by looking at its history, I have put a fair bit of time and consideration into a lot of it, so I hope it shows. While it is mostly done, it is still a work in progress while I sand down rough edges and tweak different parts to make them easier, better, or more enjoyable. My only note is that as a Summoner, its lower levels are naturally very strong as per the nature of simply having a second or even third creature to play with, and trying to work out a balance there is especially difficult...
Regardless of that little plight however, I hope you enjoy! I'm happy and eager to read any thoughts, feelings and questions, and will do my best to address them! With that note out of the way, I hope you can enjoy the class! I've tried to consider as many options, variables, situations and opportunities as possible, so you'll hopefully find that there's a little bit of something for all manner of characters, situations and scenarios. Ideas of your own though, discussions you'd like to put forward, something you'd like to note after playing the class, and possible additions or changes are always welcome!
Also if you happen to leave a vote anything less than 5 stars, do let me know where the issue is!
Balance Issues[edit]
First, i must compliment you, you definitely have put a lot of work on this brew and i really like the concept (although i'm not sure why its called aberrant summoner, because it seems to summon all sort of creature types). I am reading a bit, and i have yet to make some calculations. It seems to me that this class have some unbalances. Maybe i misunderstood some of the features, but, let me illustrate with an example:
- At 4th level, i can summon a CR 3 fiend (assuming i have chosen fiend as one of the creatures i can summon). This allow me to summon a Bearded Demon, which have the multi-attack feature. You have access to "summon bestial spirit", that has pack tactics. Which means that, at the 2nd round of an encounter, you can make a total of 4 attacks each turn, one of them with advantage. And this is just one example, i'm sure that i can find other equally powerful ways to deal with a combat.
That said, i see two major probl--Quixotic42 (talk) 18:11, 28 May 2022 (MDT)--Quixotic42 (talk) 18:11, 28 May 2022 (MDT)ems with the class right now: for a fullcaster, casting should be the main source of power, but this have powerful summons. So, or the power of the summons (meaning the CR) should be reduced, or the spellcasting progression. Just reducing the number of spells the class is able to learn may reduce the versatility and create some annoyance to the player, but don't reduce the power of the spells it can access. Anastacio (talk) 00:12, 25 June 2020 (MDT)
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First of all, thank you for the kind words. Admittedly in my attempt at creating something a little more... different, I feel I've otherwise overlooked a couple of relatively minor factors.
- When it comes to the name, the idea is that the nature of the Aberrant Summoner is varied and almost alien compared to other summoning methods used in the world of 5e DnD. Most any summoning has a lot playing on the idea of costs and time, and if not, then focus - hurdles the aberrant summoner has almost no similarity to. By comparison, its conjuration is almost alien. Additionally, besides simply having a unique name, it ties itself into the fact that the conceptual baseline follows Aberrations, and then other creature types, as opposed to the other way round. Perhaps from study into archaic tomes, modelling methods after legend, story or folklore, or simply being driven into maddened depravity with a lust for power, knowledge, or something else. In general, the concept of an Aberrant Summoner is one that defies the standard conventions of both summoning and powergain in the world of 5e DnD, even if the concept out of character isn't all that unique.
- A majority of conjuration spells specifically tied into summoning other creatures have since been removed. It is, however, important to note the limitations listed under Aberrant Summon. For example, your summon wouldn't be able to benefit from its multiattack until 5th level, at which time it can only make one additional attack. While there are no doubt a variety of powerful options, it is important to consider the limitations surrounding them as well. At lower levels, you might choose a creature with almost unconscionable strength, but lacks resiliency, utility or mobility as a result.
- The fullcasting is attributed to the magical power and potential of the summoner. They have - or at least had - the power to achieve great things like many powerful wizards and sorcerers. However, in becoming an Aberrant Summoner, they gave up a lot of the freedom that comes with that power to instead invest it in their summoning. Rather than further reduce their spellcasting, the majority of summoning spells have been removed from their spell list. Additionally, the number of spells they can know at once has been reduced to half that of other full casters. You are pressed for options when it comes to spells, but the power and versatility of your summon should be your primary focus, with your magic there to suppliment them. --Happyfeet141097 (talk) 05:27, 27 January 2021 (MST)
Summon hit points low[edit]
If you are level 3, and have a con of +5 of and a 1d6hp and roll a 6 for all hp rolls for your summon the maximum a CR 4 monster can have is 33hp which is ridiculously low. I suggest the summons have hp equal to that creature's average hit points.
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- Hit point calculation has since been changed to 6 + int modifier + a multiplier of your class level depending on aberrant pursuit, so that players have less paperwork to keep track of, and hit point values are better streamlined for your summon, rather than giving players twice as many dice rolls to handle. It also means the maximum hit points are always the same, rather than lucky/unlucky rolls drastically changing how a summon and thus the class can perform moving forward, as opposed to in a singular situation. It is important to consider that you as the summoner have a plethora of spells and skills at your disposal to help keep not only you, but your summon and party alive, regardless of subclass. This is in addition to the fact that the summon is an entirely other creature for you to control, manage and utilize, as opposed to something simpler, like a Spiritual Weapon. --Happyfeet141097 (talk) 05:27, 27 January 2021 (MST)
My DM nerfed your class big time and it's pretty annoying[edit]
This is what he did, "It's maximum cr is 1/4 of what it says in the max cr on the class sheet including aberrant capacity increases so you can summon cr2 creatures at 6th level, no immunity to being charmed or having it's thoughts read, attempts to charm it instead have disadvantage, it has proficiency in the saving throws found on it's stat block, henosis grants bonuses to 2 ability scores of your choosing, demipresence is gained at 7th level and divine awareness is gained at 13th level."
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I'm sorry to hear. Admittedly, there isn't much I can really do about the decision your DM makes when it comes to the game you run, especially since there could be any number of other factors added to their decision. Additionally, this class is still being tested - it is why it's here, after all. All I can offer is to make sure your DM is entirely aware of the many different pieces of the summon that determine how strong it is. The reduction to its very early level damage rolls and multiattacks, the size limitations along with creature type and CR, the hit points being calculated differently, etc. The takeaway from summoning in general is that it is inherently strong. Having a second health poor - an entirely other body - that can move around, attack, act and manouver of its own volition as opposed to something like a Spiritual Weapon is extremely strong, and is one of the reasons the summoner themself get almost nothing in terms of raw power progressing through levels.
While they have likely taken it all into consideration, the best I can suggest is asking about why they made their decisions. If nothing else, there's nothing stopping them from returning some of that power later should it feel underwhelming or dissatisfying to play. --Happyfeet141097 (talk) 05:27, 27 January 2021 (MST)
Question about Aberrant Capacity[edit]
Hi, first of all thanks for the class, very interesting and with lots of potential! You've clearly put a lot of effort into it. I'm about to start playing it in a weekly campaign at level 6 so if you like I can let you know how it goes as feedback. :)
One query though, I'm not really clear on how the HP increase from Aberrant Capacity works. I'm taking Fiends and Undead as my Pursued Knowledge options and Necromance as my Aberrant Pursuit. The way I calculate it, my summon should therefore have an HP of: 6 + INT mod (5 in my case) + 4x Summoner level (24 in my case) + whatever my Aberrant capacity bonus is. I think that would =4 as my Max CR at 6th level is 4, so I would end up with a total of 39, is that right? If so, then I think the rule should be reworded because it's very difficult to understand at present. If not, please do let me know. :) 81.92.206.13 06:09, 4 August 2020 (MDT)
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Firstly, thank you very much for the complement! I hope you enjoy the class in that case. I would love to hear anything you have to say on it when playing! Admittedly as my first class, I can only hope it is enjoyable for you.
When adding your Aberrant Capacity to your summon's hit points, you add whatever your Aberrant Capacity is at that specific level. In this case, you are correct with the +4, as its +1 for each of levels 3, 4, 5 and 6. At 7th level, you add +2, instead of +1.
I had added a modifier in parantheses next to each Aberrant Capacity in the features column of the levelling table, but since there might be confusion as you've brought up, I'll be rewriting the Max CR column to only show CR as it increases, and then a separate 'Bonus HP' column for the cumulative hit point bonus your summon would get from Aberrant Capacity. I hope this makes it a little easier to understand and a faster reference!
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That's fantastic, thank you! I believe I understand it completely now. :) Halfway through the first session using your class now and it's caused quite a stir so far! I'm deliberately playing it quite secretively because there's a Paladin in our party and they will probably react badly to being confronted by my new... creation. Will let you know how it goes and if any balance concerns come up! 82.154.162.121 13:14, 4 August 2020 (MDT)
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I hope the class is to your liking in that case, and look forward to anything you have to say! There have been some minor wording tweaks since my last message, but nothing that should hamper on how the class or subclass plays for you. Best of luck managing your summons, and the paladin that might look none-too-keenly on your character~
Actions[edit]
Fun class, excited to play it. Maybe some clarity on the actions though:
- "As an action during your turn, you can command your summon to act. This can be any action ordinarily available to your summon, such as its Multiattack, or another type of action. Alternatively, you can command it using your bonus action, at which time it can only use one action listed under its stat block (excluding Multiattack)"
Is this in addition to its normal move/action/bonus on its initiative?
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Hi! I'm glad you like the look of the class! The idea was that it would only do anything if you used your action or bonus action to tell it to. After reconsideration though, I simply removed this part of Aberrant Summon, because it seemed somewhat unnecessary. A big strength to the class is its stronger use of action economy after all, and having to use your action or bonus action every turn for something that makes up 80% of the class is somewhat excessive, especially for a low level summoner, or a character that multiclasses into it. Do be sure to double check the revisions!
Confusion[edit]
First of all, this class seems really fun and cool. The only problem I have is some confusion. In the Abberant capacity section it says: As you grow as a summoner, your abilities - and those of your summon - grow with it. When you reach 3rd Aberrant Summoner level, the maximum challenge rating of the creatures you can summon is permanently increased by +1. This bonus increases by a further +1 at 7th, 11th, 15th and 19th Aberrant Summoner levels for a maximum of +5 to the maximum CR your summon can be summoned as at 19th level.
Additionally, whenever you gain a level in this class, the maximum hit points of your summon is increased by an amount equal to your aberrant capacity at that level, applied individually at each level. The Bonus HP column of the levelling table shows the total additional maximum hit points granted to your summon at a given level THere is an Abberant capacity part of the table but there is also a CR rating column. Is this how many creatures you can summon or does it have something to do with the CR?
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I'm glad you like the look of the class. I hope that if you play, it plays as such! As far as CR is concerned; it mentions in Aberrant Summon that you are limited to a specific CR. This is what is shown in the CR column. Just consider it half your aberrant summoner level, rounded down. Aberrant Capacity then gives you a bonus to the maximum CR available to you, which is listed in Aberrant Capacity column. This is seperate because the aberrant capacity is used in other things as well, such as summon features. So reading the table, at 8th level for example, you would have a maximum CR of 4, +2 from your aberrant capacity, for CR 6.
Small question[edit]
Why did you decide to not make a subclass for Aberrations, Giants, Humanoids, and Constructs? I really like this class as it seems like the only way to do summoning without breaking the game, so thank you for making it.
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Firstly, I'd like to say thank you for the kind words. I'm glad you like the look of the class, and hopefully if you play it, you find it just as enjoyable. In terms of balance I tried to cover as much ground as possible, but there are still some outliers balance-wise, so in that regard it might be best to discuss things with the DM first.
As for the creature types, I have a couple reasons. I was originally considering an Aberrations subclass, but in the end decided against it since it felt rather copy-paste to other ideas. There's also the fact that the idea of the class is that the power of your summon stems at least in part from aberrations as a whole, which is why it is the universal constant for the class. Perhaps it would be best to consider the class itself focused on aberrations, and the subclasses a secondary specialization of a sorts.
As for Giants, Humanoids and Constructs, part of the reason was because I chose creature types based on subclasses - make a subclass, pick a creature type, add it to the creature type options available. There's also the fact that I tried to focus the summonable creature types to be the same as those already available through other spells and means.
I avoided adding humanoids because it felt unsuitable for the class. When a majority of the creatures that you would be able to summon are NPCs or player races, I thought it would probably be odd for an individual to conjure other individuals. While your summon can't look like a specific individual, I felt that being able to summon what is typically going to be a creature that would be mistaken as part of the general population of a city or campaign would be far too easily exploited for things unintended with the class. For Giants, it was something of a balance concern. Most of them aren't necessarily all too powerful or reliable when you consider that the bulk of what makes lower CR giants strong is their health and damage. Since the class restricts or predetermines both of these, I felt they would more often than not fall short as a summon. There's also the fact that almost every subclass currently available have size increments for what size creature you can summon, since size is a pretty big factor in the capabilities of any creature as well. I considered making a giant subclass that let you start off with Large creatures, or to make creatures larger, but by nature of what a bigger size means in DnD, it didn't seem all that great to include. Finally, I didn't add constructs since the idea is that you are summoning a living entity. With the exception being Necromance, where you are explicitly only every summoning undead as a necromancer more than a conventional summoner. In either case, constructs never really seemed to line up very well with a lot of what I had invisioned for the class as a basis, to say nothing about some of the abilities and features commonly found amongst constructs. For example, a lot of them have a plethora of very powerful resistances or immunities, be it to damage or conditions. I had also previously conceptualized a Constructs subclass as well, which functioned similarly to something like a clockwork sorcerer. However, the aforementioned features that are extremely common and at some stages of level practically universal, it seemed unhealthy that someone would be able to freely pick and choose from a pretty substantial list of creatures that are resistant to or outright immune to a majority of conditions and damage types out there.
A Little Confused[edit]
I'm really interested in playing this class for a future campaign but the 10th level feature is stumping me. You are resummoning your summon with the same hitpoints as it had before your used the feature so what is the benefit? Everything else is crystal clear and this seems like one of the most though out and interesting classes I have browsed on here.
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Thank you for the kind words, I'm glad it caught your interest and I hope it plays well!
As for the 10th level feature Emergency Redeployment, part of Aberrant Summon was reworded and is missing a very important limitation; casting aberrant summon takes 10 minutes to summon or resummon the creature you choose. The idea, therefore, is that once per long rest - and at 20th level, any number of times thereafter - you can instead spend one round to do so. While this has no effect on the health or condition of the summon itself, it DOES allow you a modicum of more control and reflex to picking what creature you have summoned. For instance, if you are in the middle of a fight and it turns out the creature you currently have summoned isn't a very good fit, you can spend a round preparing a different creature that will perform better or be more useful. Apologies for the misunderstanding, and the correction has been made.