Discussion:Champion of the Ferine (Review)

Champion of the Ferine (Review)

tl;dr Version (ahead of time): Please review this class, the Champion of the Ferine, and give me legitimate commentary and concern.

While I certainly am no expert in regards to Dungeons and Dragons 3.5e, and absolutely no professional when it comes to building and refining classes, I am an individual of creative spirit. That said, I'm also not blind to criticism, particularly the constructive type which desires to improve rather than chastise or decry. While I certainly love my creations, what I would love the most is to see them reviewed by highly knowledgeable individuals and get their opinions as to what does and doesn't work; to find errors or unforeseen consequences.

That's why I am putting forward this discussion page, as I am looking for those who consider themselves experienced with 3.5e and fairly hard or high level campaigns, or even people who aren't but are happy to lend hand and opinion.

To begin, I will reference the unofficial class tiering system put forward by JaronK, a notable individual on the Min/Max Boards; in this, I am using it with regards to designing Champion of the Ferine. While not an official Wizards of the Coast document in the slightest, its fairly well accepted among the community of Min/Max-ers as more or less fact. It presents solid points and makes decent arguments; what my goal was, as a developer of a very Paladin and Druid-like class was to reach the "tip of the spear" without going overboard; so I was shooting for Tier 3, or a more "optimal" level of character class.

"Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psychic Warrior"

- JaronK

A Champion of the Ferine is, by design, a melee intensive class, and reliant heavily upon the fact that it must reach targets in order to put the hurt on them. It has all the trappings of a fierce charger build; it has increased movement speed, wields a two-handed weapon, has the Pounce extraordinary ability, gains bonus attacks through a Monk-like mechanic, and can stand a few solid blows. However, it gains access to a few mechanics that most chargers never see, but honestly should considering they're going to be facing demons who can straight up kill them by simply saying a bad word. Champions of the Ferine, at the appropriate level, gain a mean interrupt in the form of Shattering Roar; if you're not defensively casting (for some reason when a melee brute is clearly closing the gap on you), you're doing something wrong, and you not only provoke Shattering Roar for the sole fact you're casting in the Champion's melee range, but also provoke an attack of opportunity for doing so without defensively casting; you're liable to lose the spell, but that's the way things go when you just didn't cast Fly, Teleport or what have you and you ignore what your conscious is clearly screaming at you to do.

Not only this, Champions of the Ferine passively increase their Resistance to fire, cold, acid and lightning; they're a very heavily tied nature class, so this is of little surprise, and ultimately little meaning when spells exist that don't actually do Hit Point damage and just do other terrible things to their target (like permanently Blind or, again, outright kill). Among these features, Champions of the Ferine gain access to a unique Alternate Form which is as iconic of their class, on the same level (in hope at least) as a Druid with her Wild Shape, a Rogue with his Sneak Attack, or a Truenamer with his inability to be useful. The other major component of Alternate Form comes at level 20 (Alternate Form is level 17 for reference) and is known as Insurmountable, or "What-Diehard-Really-Should-Have-Been-More-Like"; joking aside, a Champion of the Ferine in her Alternate Form will absolutely survive anything thrown her way until 3 + her Constitution modifier rounds later, in which she flat out dies. At first glance, this seems absurd, but let me remind you spells like Miracle and Wish are being thrown around freely at this level, meaning this is a pretty small fish for one to fry.

Ferocious Assault is what makes her scary (as if interrupting most every spell you throw at her if you hang around too close isn't enough), if you don't like losing Hit Points and can't easily gain them back, the best answer is to be away from her. Really far away. Provided a lot of terribly good spells have ranges well past what she can charge, that's not much an issue, but if she does close the gap and unleashes the Pounce-Ferocious Assault combo, you might regret making that choice. The fact she can Empower her weapon for added effects doesn't make your day any better, then again you somehow managed to aggravate her, and now her melee swings do anything from make your zombie minions who are swarming her actually heal her a fair amount and allow her minor counter attacks, to just letting her beat you to death with her greatsword a lot faster should she critically strike. Either way, it isn't optimal when you're on the receiving end.

So maybe you've taken the wise approach and gotten some distance, and decided to fly (hell, why not?). Now this is the point melee tend to break, as many classes can just either take cover, glare angrily at you, or decide to try and use a ranged weapon, all of which really aren't a threat to you. Some can fly too, and that's okay, you can just fly away. Well, not so much with a Champion of the Ferine hounding you; she can dispel magic, and there's a good chance you (or her) are going to end up plummeting from the sky. All the same, if she succeeds, your plan's a bit awry, and if you succeed, nothing really changed for you short of the fact it was a bit of a surprise, but you likely walked (or flew) away just fine.

Enough playing around though, lets get straight to some of the most important parts.

Why play a Champion of the Ferine?

• You like being a melee class in a world where spellcasters start to dismantle reality at around 7th level, that said, you also don't like being the Barbarian who loses almost all of his purpose when the dynamics of the world change, such as being able to fight in 3D with flight, or when casters just ignore your HP and try to do worse things to you instead because your Will save is just that bad.

• You like Paladins and really wish there was some sort of thematic difference. A Champion of the Ferine is a Paladin-Druid hybrid in a lot of its design; you are, in effect, a beast-crusader, clad in heavy plate mail armor and wielding a tremendous two-handed sword.

• You are a big lore junkie, and the fact you can play with a class that is rooted in established (Druid) lore due to its natural power source in a new way can make some awesome characters. You could have easily been a Druid, but your character just had a greater, rarer calling to something much less forgiving. Does it make or break them? Does the world revere or loathe them? Do they commit evil acts in the name of honoring and defending predatory nature, or do they serve with dignity and restraint worthy of admiration despite their killer impulses?

• You are into the prospect of not being Deity-hitched, in fact, if you really want to take it a step further, Deities can't touch you very easily lore wise. Sure, they can through some curve balls (via your Dungeon Master's cleverness or lack there of), but they can't outright unhinge your purpose or just direct you by some literal God-given mandate as easily. Just don't leave Neutrality, that does bad things for Champions of the Ferine.

• You love beast races and beast classes. A Champion of the Ferine is all about becoming that much closer to a beast, to the point you are one; its a lot of the attraction of playing a Druid or Wild Shape Ranger, but in a different form, more in the sense of a Lycanthrope.

• You like having the option to do more than "I swing my sword"; Empowerment does a lot of fun stuff, and one can really play around with its functions. Have a low HP but mass numbers zombie problem? Solve it with Reckless Onslaught. Have a Ranger who likes to get out of melee every turn by moving away without provoking? Slow him down with Maiming Wounds. Want to get rid of a troll with some mad efficiency? Untamed Power can do it. It gives choices, and everyone likes choices.

• You want to punch a Wizard (hopefully a Gnome Wizard) in the face (in the case of the Gnome, just punt him) every time he tries to cast a spell and happens to be in reach, all while roaring at him so loud it physically hurts him. For fun, make it a character roleplaying element. Its just hard for you not to strangle that sissy robe wearer for waving his hands around. But in all seriousness you want to make a caster in your melee range think twice about doing anything but running as fast as he can from you.

• You like cats? Yep, feline theme. Why? Because I love cats, and apparently all the Internet does too. Don't like cats? Use a house rule that its canine or ursine in affiliation. Who doesn't like wolves, bears? No one. I won't mind, but I still like cats.

• You like the fact that the strongest of the classes' lore characters is a female; she (Sylania Andonai) has always been as canonically as tough as any male Champion of the Ferine, and in fact, became the strongest of all in her class with time. For note, as the developer, she was never the intention of the class, just the result; the more I built the class and used the terminology to describe it, the more awesome in concept this character became. What's there not to like about making gender irrelevant in a game? Anyone can be and anyone should be able to become the ultimate bad-a, regardless of gender.

• You like to swing a greatsword with absolutely insane ease, far faster than anyone else. No, really, this is a reason to play the class. The mental image of swinging a greatsword about six times in the span of a second is pretty epic. (Thank you Hundred Blades.) Then making a claw attack at the end, because you can.

• You really don't like Fey, for whatever reason. That +8 bonus against the spell-like abilities of the Fey screams bad blood, for logical reasons and otherwise. Or maybe you really like Fey and the fact you're so attuned to nature makes the Fey have a begrudging respect for you (or the fact they'd rather not end up on the business end of a greatsword).

• You don't like dying, and in fact, actually would be incredibly amused by the functions of Insurmountable. "Oh, I've only survived three Disintegrates, hit twice for massive damage, and been the subject of a few dozen Power Word Kills." You still die once the duration ends, but at least you died fighting, literally.

• You like terrifying NPCs who are just commoners. Sure it's mean, but what wouldn't be fun about rolling into a town and having them so afraid of an otherwise nice character who just happens to be the complete embodiment of cruel, animal ferocity. If that isn't an interesting roleplaying aspect, what is? On the flip side, maybe you really are that hostile, and they best stay out of your way; what you're capable of is legendary, even for a PC in a D&D world given the way stats function.

• This list could go on and on, but I'm sure you get the point; a Champion of the Ferine is an interesting concept on base level.

What do you want us to review about a Champion of the Ferine?

• Would it be wrong for me to say all of it? Everything needs a fundamental shakedown. It mechanically works, and my parses of it versus various creatures and effects suggests its pretty tuned; spellcasters really dislike you, melee classes really dislike you, but either they get distance or get clever. This is true for most anything in D&D3.5e, but so far, my Champion of the Ferine tests seem pretty solid, but that was between me and two others (one of who is a fairly good Min/Maxer, and one is a who an above average player).

• For reference I myself did not make and test a Champion of the Ferine in the parses, for the sole purpose that I see with different lenses than the public or my compatriots, as it is my work and my opinion is jaded. That's why I really need individuals like you, the reader.

What are your concerns for a Champion of the Ferine?

• It does what its designed to do too well, and in that I mean its too awesome. Crusaders, Duskblades, Warblades, and Swordsages are the same tier (3) competition. All classes worthy of love, and all classes melee embodied. They all can do the same things (meleeing stuff) in surprisingly different ways. I don't intend for a Champion of the Ferine to go around lich-slapping Wizards, Clerics and Druids in the sense of being just so absurdly awesome; they have, and likely always will, keep their tier 1 status, because they can break the world with little effort. (Love's Pain nuking dragons.)

• Its too weak for what it needs to accomplish. Its spellcasting isn't the best, for example, but you should have a solid chance for your Dispel Magic to strip that Wizard's buffs. Maybe not all the time, but a fair amount. Your roars aren't strong enough; considering what they should mean to you, a roar (be it Shattering, Terrifying or Deafening) should give everything around you some pause, as after all, you were just roared at by a giant plate armor clad elf-cat-thing wielding a greatsword with as much ease as if it were made of Styrofoam. Empowerment should be fun and functional; spice up the regular "I hit stuff". Alternate Form should feel like a huge change to your character, as lore wise it is (check the DC 20 Knowledge for the class if you're wondering what I mean, as it should be quite worthy).

What sort of answers do you want regarding my opinion on the Champion of the Ferine?

• If you think its broke, try to give me an idea of how to fix it, and the reason why you think its broken. If you read its recent updates (version 1.1.6 into 1.2.0) you'll notice Spell Resistance became fire, cold, acid and lightning Resistance. Why? Spell Resistance is awesome! Right? Right...? Interesting fact I never knew; its a two way street. Enemy casters have a harder time hitting you with spells that do bad things. As do your friends (and hell, even yourself) hitting you with spells that do good things. Yep, you can resist beneficial spells cast by allies based on your Spell Resistance. As to why on earth anyone would ever have built that into the legitimate D&D rules I have no idea; I'm sure it sounded like a good idea at the time. Why didn't I keep the Spell Resistance? It didn't work with the rules, as much as I would have liked to ignore that issue, I don't have the authority to.

• I can't guarantee I'll agree with you or your assessment, or even use it in an update or fix, but all the same I'll thank you for it. Just don't vandalize the page, honestly. You're entitled to your opinion. You might see the Champion of the Ferine horrifically overpowered, and I understand that, and I could argue all I want about how every major caster (the big three being Wizard, Druid, Cleric) eclipses this class, but in the end, it matters little. Our games are played pretty differently, likely. The DMs I run with like to put us to that edge of "this might be our last fight" a lot. Its fun, to me and my group, but it might not be to you. Agree to disagree, but at least comprehend each other's view? Now that I can agree on.

What else can I do to help out on the Champion of the Ferine topic?

• Short of reviewing and rating the class, offering your opinion, noting to me major bugs or oversights, just being a participant, and I mean that in the sense of, "Hey, I want to try your class in an actual D&D3.5e game with my group." To me, that's satisfaction above and beyond anything else, as it means someone at least wants to try what I (with solid help) put together.

--Argent Fatalis (talk) 06:24, 18 February 2013 (MST)

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I hate to say this but... Wildly Overpowered...

Let me start from the beginning.

1. No Standard class in D&D 3.5 starts with Ability increases, especially to Strength and Constitution.

2. From the very start, it feels like you took a Barbarian, combined it with a Druid and a Monk with claws...

Now, I would love this class, however I would feel more comfortable playing it only if I were playing at least 1 or 2 CR's up.

Unshackled Movement: "Continued, a Champion of the Ferine no longer suffers a penalty to movement or is subject to a Maximum Dexterity Bonus while wearing heavy armor, but still does as normal while she is carrying a heavy load."

That part of this ability is absolutely insane. What you are saying is that you could play a barbarian/monk/druid/kitty in full plate armor running along walls and dodging like they werent in armor. You could create characters with 40+ AC easily, far too easily, with this character.

I will pop back in with more advice when I finish reading through.

How to fix this? I honestly have no idea. I like your concept, but I would start from the beginning, and mix some but not all of the class abilities. All the ability increases should occur at higher levels.

I do like Unshackled movement, but as a 12th level or higher ability.

Hello Darth Pwnage,

Thank you for reviewing the class as it currently stands. I will do my best to provide answers, replies, and most importantly, possible solutions to the problems you've brought forward.

1. No Standard class in D&D 3.5 starts with Ability increases, especially to Strength and Constitution.

- That is true, no standard class receives Ability Score increases... Directly. The most notable is the Barbarian, who has his Rage ability to artificially increase his Ability Scores, but he need actually use his Rage to gain its benefits (and weaknesses). There are prestige classes such as the Primeval from the Frostburn book (which was some solid inspiration) that get Ability Score adjustments (and penalties), but again, they are not base classes.

- I do not see anything terribly wrong with giving flat increases of Ability Scores every few levels, especially as more and more spells come online to Wizards, Clerics and Druids. In addition, certain classes advance by leaps and bounds; a Champion of the Ferine sits in between a Rogue and a Barbarian, with the Rogue scaling more naturally (but still horrifically outclassed against spellcasters) and a Barbarian who jumps in power with each added increase to Rage's effectiveness.

Logical Solutions: None immediately applicable.

- I do not believe passive Ability Score adjustment is an issue, however, I have an idea in mind that may balance it better and prevent multiclassing craziness. I will likely add a clause much alike a Monk's that prevents new levels of Champion of the Ferine from being taken if they attempt to dip Champion of the Ferine, and or include restrictions on certain features like Ferocious Assault.

2. From the very start, it feels like you took a Barbarian, combined it with a Druid and a Monk with claws...

- A Champion of the Ferine has the rapid frenzy-like offense of a Barbarian, the animal aspect and some spell casting elements of a Druid, a Paladin's zealotry and a Monk's Flurry, albeit armed. This was intentional, and honestly, I have always felt a beast-crusader sort of character or class has been terribly underrated as a design; very few builds can run a Lycanthrope character efficiently (the bonus HD, LA, etc) without sacrificing near everything. A Druid is pigeonholed into being an uber spell-caster animal shapeshifter with a great pet, and the Wild Shape Ranger being the only distant relative to a Champion of the Ferine, and even then, Rangers sadly aren't ideal for what they actually do. The Monk's Flurry in the form of Ferocious Assault was to level the playing field of hitting hard, and fast, but having a good gamble (over time lowering the risks, but then again a natural 1 is still a huge risk on that many attacks).

- Claws in place of the greatsword. This is an issue that has been mentioned in the past and I am likely to rectify soon. A Champion of the Ferine is designed to be more than competent with their claws in melee should they be disarmed or otherwise forced to attack through this means, otherwise a Champion's weapon is the easiest target, even with the Inscription Expanded Class Feature and a Adamantine weapon.

Logical Solutions: Reduce the damage dealt by claws.

- I will likely significantly reduce the damage dealt by the Champion of the Ferine's claws and make an Alternate Class Feature or Expanded Class Feature which brings the claws back to their old glory. Yes, I did say "old glory". The claw build was tested and yes it did out preform the standard greatsword build, especially with temples like Feral where claws were dealing 4d6 or more damage.

Now, I would love this class, however I would feel more comfortable playing it only if I were playing at least 1 or 2 CR's up.

- Perhaps this is somewhat my fault for the experience I have with 3.5e; a Champion of the Ferine in our games is facing off against monsters with Clerics, Druids, Artificers and Wizards by their side. These monsters are more than capable of dropping a Fighter or making him of little use in no time, even if he was the ultimate tank; the only competition the Champion of the Ferine has in our higher than average difficulty games comes from Warblades, Crusaders and Swordsages, with everything else being Tier 1 (Cleric, Druid, Wizard, etc).

- For low power games? Yes, a Champion of the Ferine stands out as much as a Sorcerer would when the rest of the party is a Rogue, a Two Weapon Ranger, a Fighter and a Healer. This question of balance I will attempt to fine tune better.

Logical Solutions: None?

- Honestly, I am not sure how to make a Champion of the Ferine more applicable to lower power games without just removing certain features. It goes back to my personal experience and the fact that certain classes, even in melee, so radically outshine others. A Fighter cannot handle a Crusader, a Rogue cannot contend with a Warblade, etc. Some classes, like the Rogue, are more versatile and can multiclass out of many of their problems, or take ACFs. Fighters, Monks, Samurai (even with Imperious Command), Ninjas and the like, are all just so eclipsed by everything else, I'm not sure whether to take my hand off the throttle for the Champion or keep her steady as is.

Unshackled Movement:

"Continued, a Champion of the Ferine no longer suffers a penalty to movement or is subject to a Maximum Dexterity Bonus while wearing heavy armor, but still does as normal while she is carrying a heavy load."

- In all honesty, the design behind this is that a Champion of the Ferine cannot be naturally burdened. Playing a Champion is playing the Will stat. You force yourself, because you can physically as a Champion of the Ferine, to move with unnatural grace and speed, one a regular mortal of your race cannot mimic so readily.

- Balance wise? Unshackled Movement was designed to do two major things; prevent targets from ranging and kiting you (very easily done by casters and ranged) and to make Dexterity worth something. Champions of the Ferine are not a MAD class; your primary Ability Scores, in order, are Strength, Wisdom (until 15), Constitution. Adding Dexterity solves some of the greatest weaknesses all while making them non-mandate; you can be able to tank as a Champion of the Ferine due to a Dex heavy build; you can avoid touch spells a bit easier; your Reflex saves are better. A Champion of the Ferine may more or less be a cat in plate, a big one too, but you still are fairly Dex-y.

Logical Solutions: Push the Maximum Dexterity Bonus reduction back to a higher level.

- Not so much to reduce the proposed problem, but to contend with an issue I fear more; multiclass abuse. Considering the way as written, Champion of the Ferine is a very lucrative 1 level dip for most any melee class.

How to fix this? I honestly have no idea. I like your concept, but I would start from the beginning, and mix some but not all of the class abilities. All the ability increases should occur at higher levels.

- I highly appreciate your interest in the class; to me, it says a lot, and you bring up very legitimate concerns.

- The class does need greater restrictions to prevent level 1 from being too powerful versus those precious d4s most casters have or overwhelming other melee. Admittedly Ability Score increases will not be changed as is, but the class' overall limitations will be. People should play a Champion of the Ferine to play a Champion of the Ferine, not attempt to circumvent its mechanics to their benefit; a lofty ideal, but I can develop around the fact that people will try to do so.

Thank you for your input; look for a update in the very near future for the class regarding your suggestions.

--Argent Fatalis (talk) 02:11, 10 April 2013 (MDT)

Argent Fatalis,

I definitely understand the high power thing, my group plays Pathfinder/D&D 3.5, and I allowed them to create some custom races using some rules outlined in the Advanced Race Guide, and all of our fights are knockdown/drag out fights where death could easily be an inch away. The group fights armies, sometimes coming out without a scratch. I personally would enjoy seeing this in my group, and I might see about having one of them switch out for a 12 level of your class, just to see if it powers comparitively to what we are doing.

This may seem strange, but a fix could be that you *CAN NOT* multi-class into this class, with the possible exception of beastial race class levels, such as levels you may get from being a bugbear, as those are required by race. Like state that as a rock solid impossibility, and that would fix at least some of the balance issues. As for kiting a player out, monsters/npcs will not tend to be smart enough for that, at least that I have seen. Let me know if you need any more help, I am still looking over the rest of your class, but I think changing a thing or two at the start could fix something. The other thing to change could be to give the class a major weakness. IMO, I could see as a part of Feral Blood "Also considered an Animal." This could be very strange sounding, but it could work.

Darth Pwnage

Hello again Darth Pwnage,

I would be highly appreciative of your efforts to include a 1.3.0v Champion of the Ferine in your game as a live test; it fared very well in the internal tests I did with it and monitored over (two very different players given the same scenarios). As for group and campaign testing? Thus far I haven't any luck, and the next 3.5e game we are to play is, at absolute earliest, two months away, seeing as we're about half way into a 4e game right now. Especially in more hardcore games a Champion of the Ferine should be tested, versus low power where the strongest character in the group is the Barbarian with the Cleave feat; I honestly would rather balance around highest level of play versus lowest, because a major element and theme of this class is the fact that it is designed to keep Tier 2s and Tier 1s constantly on their toes.

A definitive "no multiclassing" is absolutely a possibility and would save much time and headache whilst fulfilling the ideal of "you play a Champion of the Ferine to play a Champion of the Ferine"; prestige classes are acceptable, and are a plan in the long run for the Champion of the Ferine, but not near future. From experience, watching a melee get kited around by a particularly savvy Sorcerer was not only hysterical, it was saddening; it took very, very little effort and only a few lower level spells to accomplish. Treating Champions of the Ferine with the Animal type added might be a valid means of giving them a bit more weakness (and more exploitability, as per spells like Animal Growth); it works well fluff and logic wise, but people will do their best to turn this weakness into a boon, and do well with it, too. Again, thank you for all the input, and I will continue to make the most logical and realistic changes possible.

--Argent Fatalis (talk) 06:48, 11 April 2013 (MDT)